Who killed the electric car?

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/

Disclaimer: Mods, if you feel this belongs in media centre, then by all means, move it. However, due to the nature of the content, I believe that this thread will get quite political anyway.

Found a link to this movie on another site. I haven't seen it yet, but the trailer and the info on the website certainly are intriguing. With the rising cost of oil, why hasn't there been more incentive to find more fuel-efficient methods of driving a car?

What do you think about this issue? I remember largely being told (and reading) that electric cars simply weren't efficient enough, but this is shining some new light on this situation. Certainly stuff that oil companies wouldn't want to tell you, and it also tells you why they're slowly looking into hydrogen fuel cells, which will still take a few decades before we see them (after which, they will still benefit from it, cause you can get hydrogen from oil).

We've all joked about the oil companies buying up every little secret that would make oil less valuable (like a steam powered car, or one that runs on peanut butter. Heck, I remember a clip on the Simpsons where they were at Disney World, and the electric car ride, funded by oil companies no less lol, said it couldn't go far and that you were gay if you rode one), but do you think something like this movie will have some ounce of truth to it?

Do you think that if electric cars were as good as this movie claims, and was as readily available to the average joe (with the required infrastructure to support it), it would be a good or bad thing? Why or why not?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star?

WE DO! WE DO!

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Originally Posted by Crash Landon

Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star?

WE DO! WE DO!

LOL, I actually had that stone cutter's song going through my head while typing this post up (they make a reference to keeping the electric car down in case you don't get it).

How ya doing, buddy?

Quote:

(they make a reference to keeping the electric car down in case you don't get it).

They do? Wow, that's a hell of a coincidence, seeing as I just posted a Stonecutter's image and all. Funny how that worked out for all of us.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Gecko3

Certainly stuff that oil companies wouldn't want to tell you, and it also tells you why they're slowly looking into hydrogen fuel cells, which will still take a few decades before we see them (after which, they will still benefit from it, cause you can get hydrogen from oil).

If there's any fossil fuel we're going to be taking hydrogen from in order to power fuel-cell based cars it's going to be natural gas, not oil. I mean, why would you ever replace the internal combustion engine with a less efficient alternative when you're going to be using the same fuel?

We haven't seen research into these alternatives because there's been no reason to do it. Oil is just so darned convenient and cheap that nobody sees a reason to sink billions of dollars into an alternative until that alternative is in really high demand.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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but do you think something like this movie will have some ounce of truth to it?

The tragedy of such a question...beware the truth, hey? It's a DOCO. You should be wondering about possible OUTRIGHT PORKERS.

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Oil is just so darned convenient and cheap that nobody sees a reason to sink billions of dollars into an alternative until that alternative is in really high demand.

Chicken and the egg. How do we create really high demand?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

If there's any fossil fuel we're going to be taking hydrogen from in order to power fuel-cell based cars it's going to be natural gas, not oil. I mean, why would you ever replace the internal combustion engine with a less efficient alternative when you're going to be using the same fuel?

We haven't seen research into these alternatives because there's been no reason to do it. Oil is just so darned convenient and cheap that nobody sees a reason to sink billions of dollars into an alternative until that alternative is in really high demand.

Are hydrogen fuel cells like the most efficient thing in the world, though?

I think the problem comes in plating the electrodes (needed in every engine) with platinum. That's right, a part of every hydrogen fuel cell engine has to be coated with platinum.

That's not cheap.

FELIPE NO

I really don't think the oil companies could get any dumber. Whichever one of them develops some new type of fuel that becomes the standard first stands to make a hell of a lot of money, and it's not like they have to make that much in the way of adjustments at the gas stations... I mean, obviously the fuel is still going to have to be in liquid form and gee where do you suppose they have pumps for pumping liquid fuel into cars?

Although elecrtic cars still wouldn't work that great overall. They're really nice for stop and go traffic but freeway driving is hell on the battery as the car has to keep up high speeds for long distances. That's why hybrids get lower gas mileage on freeways, because combustion engines are much more efficient for that kind of driving and thus the car lets the engine do most of the work as opposed to city driving where the battery gets it's giggles.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Atomic Duck

Although elecrtic cars still wouldn't work that great overall. They're really nice for stop and go traffic but freeway driving is hell on the battery as the car has to keep up high speeds for long distances. That's why hybrids get lower gas mileage on freeways, because combustion engines are much more efficient for that kind of driving and thus the car lets the engine do most of the work as opposed to city driving where the battery gets it's giggles.

It's actually quite the opposite for me. I drive a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid, and provided the freeway isn't going up a mountain my mileage is worlds better than what a combustion engine gets. The trick is just learning to drive so that you spend a good amount of the time coasting whenever you can. Most time on the freeway is spent with my battery charging rather than draining.

On the other hand, all the stop and go traffic with city driving requires the battery to have to kick in without much opportunity to charge back up. Even then my gas mileage is 2-3 times better than it was with an Oldsmobile.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by gukarma

Are hydrogen fuel cells like the most efficient thing in the world, though?

Not really. There's a number of intrinsic inefficiencies to fuel cells. People just think they're tons more efficient because they're not going to be pumping out tons of hot exhaust that can be seen as obvious waste.

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I think the problem comes in plating the electrodes (needed in every engine) with platinum. That's right, a part of every hydrogen fuel cell engine has to be coated with platinum.

That's not cheap.

Every hard drive has a thin film of platinum on it. Pt-Co alloys have some great magnetic properties.

Originally Posted by Cal

Chicken and the egg. How do we create really high demand?

Make movies that make people want to drive alternative fueled cars, apparently.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Tritoch

It's actually quite the opposite for me. I drive a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid, and provided the freeway isn't going up a mountain my mileage is worlds better than what a combustion engine gets. The trick is just learning to drive so that you spend a good amount of the time coasting whenever you can. Most time on the freeway is spent with my battery charging rather than draining.

On the other hand, all the stop and go traffic with city driving requires the battery to have to kick in without much opportunity to charge back up. Even then my gas mileage is 2-3 times better than it was with an Oldsmobile.

The point was that hybrids get worse mileage on the freeway than they do in town. Not a comparison between the hybrid and a more standard car.

How ya doing, buddy?

The electric car was killed by the hybrid. The hybrid was just more practical at the moment.

About hybrid mileage, they beat all four-wheel combustion engines easily, and the only reason they don't beat motorcycles is because motorcycles have far less load to carry. Also, it would have been nicer, upon discussing how hybrids get better mileage in town, to give the comparitive numbers. Hybrids do get better mileage in town, but not that much better. I beleive it was 55 on the highway and 60 in town. That crushes the competition.

Given gas prices, I honestly don't understand why more people don't buy them. Actually, I do. Only one American company (correct me if I'm wrong) has a hybrid at the moment, and a lot of people are really big on being patriotic by buying American goods. Poor reasoning, I'd say. Others actually have this misconception that hybrids are expensive, when they really aren't; a new one runs about $20K, just like most normal cars.

Hybrids FTW!

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Hybrids are good, and are only slightly more expensive than a comparable normal car. But they are more expensive to repair, and there is more things that can break down on them. This is another chicken-egg issue though, as if they were more popular parts would be cheaper.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Alot of people just dont have the money to suddenly drop thier current car and buy a hybrid. Even if they sold the old one. Others cant even use hybrids because they cant do the work as well as a regular car can.

My father has to use a stronger truck to accomplish the work he does. (The Army has had him building stuff down on the border for years) A hybrid just would not have the power or stamina to accomplish the same amount of work his current truck goes through.

Do they even have hybrid SUVs yet? If my siblings and I were still young I doubt he could fit us all into a dinky little car. The same probably applies to other families. I really doubt you'd be able to fit many children and two adults into a hybrid car.

Also.. what would be the point of electric cars? Okay, so you're not putting gas in the tank. Instead you're using more fossil fuels to power it up all the time. >.>

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by PattyNBK

Given gas prices, I honestly don't understand why more people don't buy them. Actually, I do. Only one American company (correct me if I'm wrong) has a hybrid at the moment, and a lot of people are really big on being patriotic by buying American goods. Poor reasoning, I'd say. Others actually have this misconception that hybrids are expensive, when they really aren't; a new one runs about $20K, just like most normal cars.

The amount of car you get for a hybrid is considerably less than that of a traditional one for the money, isn't it? Also, isn't there still a pretty large waiting line for getting hybrids right now? I know none of the dealers near me never have any of them sitting on the lot, as they pretty much sell as soon as they come in.

For people with a hybrid, I've actually been curious. How's the pickup on it compared to other small cars? I used to have an Escort and I really didn't like how it had a problem with accelerating from 30-60 MPH as it made merging onto highways pretty difficult.

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Originally Posted by Shonos

Do they even have hybrid SUVs yet?

Such things do exist, amazingly enough.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Don't you get like ridiculous tax breaks for having a hybrid?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Here's a rather recent article that seems to address a few questions pretty well. I'll just take out a few quotes I think are worth everyone's time.

Quote:

Hybrids are the most gasoline efficient of all cars – they typically get 48 to 60 mpg (claimed). Not bad, but only about 20% to 35% better than a fuel efficient gasoline powered vehicle – like the Honda Civic, for example, that gets 36 mpg. But, when comparing prices – hybrids cost from $19,000 to $25,000 and gas saver cars cost $14,000 to $17,000 – the justification to buy becomes less clear.

Indeed, the difference in average annual fuel bills - $405 for a Honda Insight versus $635 for a Honda Civic – means you may never recoup the added initial cost of a hybrid. Over a ten year period owning a hybrid will save you only $2,300 – less than the cost difference for comparably equipped cars.

Much of the fuel efficiency comes from improvements in aero dynamics, weight reduction and, the biggest change: a smaller, less powerful gas engine. In fact, any car will get substantially better mileage just by reducing the engine size. The main reason this is not done has to do customer demand – they want the extra power and zippiness.

...



Then, there is always the environment – always worth thinking about. A hybrid cuts emissions by 25% to 35% over even the most fuel efficient gas powered models.

The tax incentive in the U.S. is another powerful motive – it can reduce your cost up to $3,400 depending on the cost of the vehicle. Better act fast, however, to get the model you want: the tax break only applies to the first 60,000 vehicles produced yearly by each manufacturer. Toyota’s Prius, for example, will quickly reach that number of sales before year-end.

http://www.physorg.com/news10031.html

There's nowhere I can't reach.

what i don't get is why people havn't hurried up with the water-powered cars yet. somebody made one but not much else is happening with it. think about it; water is made of hydrogen and oxygen. separate the two with electricity and you have an extremely flamable gas with the only exhaust being water. it's the perfect solution, there's water everywhere!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by daguuy

what i don't get is why people havn't hurried up with the water-powered cars yet. somebody made one but not much else is happening with it. think about it; water is made of hydrogen and oxygen. separate the two with electricity and you have an extremely flamable gas with the only exhaust being water. it's the perfect solution, there's water everywhere!

Problem is, wouldn't that require a nuclear reactor for an engine, or at least some kind of fission reactor? Unless there's another way to split molecules into individual atoms. Science isn't my bag, really, but that sounds like what we were taught in chemistry.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by PattyNBK

Science isn't my bag, really, but that sounds like what we were taught in chemistry.

Haha, no shit. All you need is an electrical charge. Problem is where do you get that electrical charge? Oh right, it's traced back to fossil fuels. You have to put more energy into it then you get out.

Not to mention riding in a car full of hydrogen isn't the smartest idea around.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Stealth

Not to mention riding in a car full of hydrogen isn't the smartest idea around.

Kinda like how riding in a car filled with extremely volatile gasoline isn't the smartest idea around?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Hybrids are also more of a hassle to manage more than anything. You're not going to find many certified mechanics willing to work on a hybrid. For that you'll need a specialist, meaning extra money you're putting into a car that's already charging you more for "saving" you money.

I wouldn't purchase a hybrid to be honest, not until they're more popular and have more mechanics certified to work on them. Right now just isn't a good time.

Also: why the fuck would they make a hybrid SUV? That's ridiculous.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Prosthetic

Hybrids are also more of a hassle to manage more than anything. You're not going to find many certified mechanics willing to work on a hybrid. For that you'll need a specialist, meaning extra money you're putting into a car that's already charging you more for "saving" you money.

I wouldn't purchase a hybrid to be honest, not until they're more popular and have more mechanics certified to work on them. Right now just isn't a good time.

Also: why the fuck would they make a hybrid SUV? That's ridiculous.

Apparently a shocking amount of idiot soccer moms want to save the world. =/

I for one would not buy a hybrid either. I mean, atleast not yet. Like you said, they're much trickier to find a good mechanic to work on (and damn near impossible to work on yourself). Also, I have yet to see an actual hybrid that doesn't scream "pretentious". They may as well sell the damn things at Starbucks.

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What's pretentious about them? I don't see hybrids as a say to save the environment, I see them as a way to save money. The more expensive gas gets, the more money you save. Of course it depends on your driving habits. The people who save the most money by buying a hybrid are people who do mostly in-town driving, as that's where it shines the most. Plenty of economy cars can get decent to good mileage on the highway (as noted earlier in the threat), but only the hybrid can get you the beyond awesome mileage when talking about in-town driving.

As for not buying them yet because of mechanics and such, yeah, that is a big problem in the United States. I wish the government would divert some of the war funding to give incentives to mechanics to learn how to do maintenance on hybrids. Maybe in 2008 . . .

Jam it back in, in the dark.