[PC] World of Warcraft

The removal of 40 player raids is very, very bad news for anyone raiding currently. We already have people sitting out of current raids. What am I supposed to say to half the guild when I can only invite 25? "Thanks for the help in MC through Naxx. Go can go fuck yourselves now." And no, making two raids groups is not plausible at all.

If there were some 40 man raids mixed in with the others I could really care less, but the complete lack of 40 man raid content is a kick in the nuts to those who have been raiding as such for two years now. I'm genuinely worried about where the game is heading now. This is going to kill a lot of guilds.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by dagget

Let them learn and manage multiple raids, get everyone geared up faster.

Xi pretty much summed up my thoughts on the "two raids" idea.

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Who decides who goes in each raid, who leads the raids, how many people do we need on standby for each raid, what kind of class stack do we need for the encounters, how many people do we recruit to deal with the challenges ahead, what happens when group B's tanks are online, but they don't have enough priests, and A has priests, but no tanks. And by the time we're done separating people into 2 categories, we might as well be 2 completely fucking separate guilds.

Casuals are cackling with glee but they don't really see the full picture. The 25 player limit does not benefit casuals. Raids will still take hours of work and hours more outside raids to farm raid materials. The only thing this does is split guilds that have been raiding as a 40 man for two years. I don't play because WoW itself is fun. I play because I enjoy raiding with the 39 other people I've met and become very good friends with over the course of my playtime. If the explodes because half of it can never get into the A team I no longer have a reason to play.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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What about ZG and AQ20? Those aren't 40 man, but they're still difficult to those who first start the encounters in there, not people who go in after they're in a guild that has it on 2 hour farm status.

They are a side instances to the 40 man raids. If your guild is a raiding guild you can do ZG/AQ20 and have a ton of people sit out because they either 1. don't care or 2. don't care because Naxxramas is the next day. Difficulty has nothing to do with it.

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All this does is allow for the guilds with smaller people, that want to experience end content, but dont' want to deal with the drama of a huge raiding guild.

Just because the content is 25 man doesn't make it any easier. The new guilds forming for these instances will be exactly like the current ones only with less people. You'll still have DKP, tons of farming for mats, drama, etc. As I've said before, this does next to nothing for casuals. Illidan will still be killed by hardcore raiders relatively shortly after release and by casuals about two years later.

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The high school drama queen crap about breaking up guilds is getting to be rather old. Everyone acts like they have to "fire" people now. This isn't a job, and this isn't the end of the world.

If you're in a raiding guild one can assume you play the game to raid. Let's say you made the guild right at release and spent a lot of time recruiting, gearing people up, etc. Now you have probably 80-90 players and can fill a 40 man whenever you please. Now you suddenly find out 40 man raids are obsolete and 25 is the new standard. You now have about 40 extra people in your guild. Whether you "fire" them or not, they're going to eventually leave because they want to raid and yet can never get in one. We usually have upwards of 6 priests online with more who could potentially be online. When BC comes out and I can only invite three to each raid, how long do you think the rest are going to want to stand around with their thumb up their ass before they leave to join/create another guild? Also, as Xellos said, in theory running two raids would work. In practice I guarantee it never will.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by dagget

DUUUUUUUUUUH. Yeah, uh no shit. Everything is going to be difficult when first experienced. It takes time to learn, much like everything else did.

And time is what casuals whine about not having. The basic point is that this is a change geared towards pleasing the majority of the WoW fanbase (casuals, non-raiders, whatever you want to call them) and yet it does next to nothing for them. All it does is screw over raiders who have been the most consistant group of players since release.

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And the problem with that being...? Oh I get it, it won't be enough. Let's see. MC was out at release. People downed that and wanted something more. Blackwing Lair came out. that got farmed fast, people wanted more. Zul'Gurub came out "Need more 40 man plz" AQ came out. "boring. DONE. next" Naxx is out. In that time frame, exactly what has been released for people who are in smaller guilds but don't have the numbers to run MC on their own? Oh Dire Maul.

WoW was released with one 40 man and many smaller dungeons. To even the playing field ZG, BWL, AQ, and Naxxramas were in production during beta and up until their respective releases. ZG was even changed from a 40 man to a 20 man to appease casuals.

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Bottom line, is... IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL.

To you it wouldn't be. You don't really strike me as a raider so this really doesn't effect you. What you're not seeing if how this impacts those who have been working through endgame content since release. If Blizzard had made the max raid cap 25 people from the start nobody would have a problem right now. Instead they decided to change the rules halfway through and in doing so have alienated most of the raiding community. Raiders aren't pissed off because they're afraid casuals will beat bosses and get phat loot or whatever. Raiders are pissed because they're going to have to sit out half their guild.

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If you're worried about who you're going to cut from your guild, because it has to be only the "ELITE BEST PLAYERZ" now in the guild

Once again, it's not about cutting people. Whether a guild is close-knit or not, nobody pays a monthly fee to sit around with their thumb up their ass. If they rarely get to raid they will eventually leave to find a place where they can or quit the game.

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t just baffles me taht everyone knew the expansion was going to be catered to the non-hardcore raiders. When it's announced what it entails, people are acting like bitches about it. :\

Most raiders assumed that Blizzard learned from their mistakes with casuals and would balance content from the beginning in the expansion. To our dismay, they did the exact opposite and in a knee-jerk reaction have royally fucked raiding guilds in the ass.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by dagget

So.. it's ok to fuck people over for a year and a half, because they aren't in raiding guilds, but now that the do level caps, it's not ok? Because those people are raiders?

Are you dyslexic or something? Are you incapable of processing anything I'm saying? I didn't even insinuate any of that anywhere in my post(s). If you're going to try to argue at least do it with actual points instead of pulling them out of your ass.

Also, screwing someone over doesn't mean Blizzard should screw the other side of the field. That's idiotic logic. The smart thing would have been to have equal amounts of both content from the get go instead of having to release a ton of raid dungeons after release.

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A. Now all raiding guilds magically have only 40 people in their guild MAX, that raid with them everynight. They don't have 41 members or 60 people in their guild. It's all down to 40 people in the guild now. (despite some saying that they have anywhere from 50-60 people online at any given raid night) What happened to the other ones who were online and told "Sorry, everyone's here. We don't need you to be online." ?

The entire point is that we'll have to tell MORE people "Sorry, everyone's here. We don't need you to be online." My guild has 50-ish solid players and I can tell you right now running two raids will not work. When ZG and AQ20 most endgame raiding guilds with a million people tried running two raid groups at the same time. Even with the leeway of needing 5 less people it did not work. You have no understanding of how endgame raids function and what goes into forming and maintaining a successful raid.

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I am so fucking sick of everyone always assuming the casual base and what they want, no really, I am. I play casually. Why? Because I hate the rules and bullshit that goes on in high-end raiding guilds. I chose not to go to one (even being offered to join them) Why? Because I don't need that headache. But because I chose to not go to one, I'm not allowed to see the new content because "lol u don't raid naxx so ur casual and will never set foot in these places" Assumptions are nice aren't they?

The exact same shit will go on in the new content, only with less people. This is not a magic change to get casuals into endgame. If casual players (or whatever you want to call them) aren't raiding Naxx now they will not be raiding Black Citadel in the expansion.

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The point of this was to make content better accessable to those who don't have the time nor care to join a raiding guild, and are in a smaller guild of friends.

But it doesn't, as I've said before. Endgame instances like the Black Citadel will take just as much time as AQ40 and Naxxramas do now. It will be just as impenetrable to people with no time and dedication as the current endgame.

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This arguement is so old, it's not even funny.

It's not an arguement. It's the truth.

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Pleae tell me what dungeons were added after Dire Maul for people who have done nothing but cleared and farmed out of the hell of Scholo/Strat/Blackrock Spire? Hell, I'll even throw ZG in there now. There haven't been.

Because at release there were more non-raid dungeons than raid dungeons. Are you reading anything that I'm typing here?

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Also if that douchebag from DnT wants to leave and throw a temper tantrum like Furor (which is what he's doing) because now there's no content to make him better, as well as about 4 upgrades higher in terms of gear, than a person who plays like me, then he's nothing but a fucking baby. Plain and simple.

No, he'll still be geared far past you. I'm sure DnT will kill Illidan a few months after release whereas you probably will after the next next expansion is released. As I've said many, many times this change does not help people like you. If you don't like endgame now you won't magically like endgame in TBC. If anything, the guilds running it will be even more strict since they have to have very exact classes to fill those 25 spots. With a 40 man raid you can screw up the class balance to a degree and be fine. With 25 you'll need exactly this, this, and that with this exact spec.

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The non-raiding/casual/casual raiders wanted content to fit them. They got it

No, they didn't. I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. Less people != accessible to casuals.

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Friends that they've probably made while screwing other friends in a smaller guild over.

And this is pretty much what your entire arguement and casual-ness comes from. You've had bad experiences with whatever and now raiding guilds are the devil and everyone in them is out to get everyone else. No giant raiding guild knows what it's like to be small or casual because they all obviously popped into existence one day with 60 people.

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But most raid leaders hate organizing 40 (I know some who do, and I know it's a headache myself) they see this as a blessing.

You are probably one of the least qualified people to say what "most raid leaders" hate and don't hate.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by dagget

The fact you brought up him being geared past me and that he will take down Illidan in a month

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Also if that douchebag from DnT wants to leave and throw a temper tantrum like Furor because now there's no content to make him better, as well as about 4 upgrades higher in terms of gear, than a person who plays like me, then he's nothing but a fucking baby.

YOU brought it up.

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Let me clarify. "Casuals are not going to learn these instances, because that they don't raid now." That's a pretty big assumption. Like saying that they won't be able to advance because they'll never learn.

It's not a matter of learning. If they don't have time to raid now they won't have time to raid in the expansion. The player cap is changing, not the time required to down bosses. Endgame raid guilds will be endgame raid guilds, only with less people. I don't know what's so hard to grasp about this.

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Because now instead of having to join a raiding guild, they have access to it without going to one.

If they are in a guild and raiding, their guild is a raiding guild. It will still have rules, a looting system, etc. If you expect 25 retards to zone into Black Citadel and kill anything you are sorely mistaken.

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I, for one, will enjoy the content that I can get to, because I like casual raiding. But, there's no such thing. it's RAID 40 MAN OR DIE now, right?

Ok, I'm going to spell this out for you one more time. Try to gather your brain cells in one place and concentrate.

Raiders do not care if their raids are 10 man or 25 man or 40 man or 500 man. It was the fact that for two years they built their guilds around endgame requiring 40 people. Now Blizzard has suddenly changed this and most endgame guilds either have to recruit a ton of people to try running two raids (which will not work) or tell half their guild to fuck off. Either way, raiders are getting screwed. Had they released the game with a raid cap of 25 to begin with, nobody would have a problem right now.

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It won't matter anyway, with the new level difficulty scale, you guys will still be on top anyway. It'll be like "LOLOL you finished Illidan at level 70? ::LAFF:: we did it at level 75 difficulty level LAWLS"

Nobody cares about who does what when and how hard it was. We care about the people we've come to enjoy spending time with getting screwed. When it comes down to it I'm sure we'll all adapt, but that doesn't make it right. Xi put it best:

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Let me leave you with a final thought, one you may see repeated in the upcoming days, because it was included in an article I was asked to contribute to. When Death and Taxes kills Illidan, and we stand over his corpse for our screenshot, will our first thought be: Where are the other 15 people who stood together with us for Onyxia, for Ragnaros, for Nefarion, for C'thun, and finally for Kel'Thuzad.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by dagget

I really don't understand what is so hard about splitting up two core teams for the guild.

Quoted from Brunette who posted on the DnT website explaining this same thing:

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Maybe some real numbers will help you understand. We have a Naxx raiding base of about 56 people. Generally our attendance ranges from 75-95% a night. In order to be able to run 2 groups when you have an 75% attendance you would need about 67 people. This means right away we are recruiting 10 more players. Now you have troubles with 2 seperate raid locks; less active people can only fill a spot in one of the raids per lock cycle. So if A Team was short on tanks the first night; they would have to lock all the excess tanks in order to progress that night. If A Team regular tanks returned the next night and B Team was missing tanks they would have no backup pool to go too.

Also, its awesome when A team is one shotting everything and B team is still wiping to the boss weeks after yor first kill. As well if A and B team are always the same people; might as well make 2 fucking guilds. You thought organizing one 40 man group was hard? Try organizing 2 balanced 25 man groups. Even back when ZG was freshly opened and everyone was interested in doing it; it was difficult to constantly and successfully field 2 seperate raids.

Now if we do only one raid with our 56 members than 55% of our members are sitting playing with themselves all night. People being left out constantly on OOR will just say fuck the game or the guild.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

There are a lot of things Blizzard could do to possibly ease the assfucking this change has performed on raiding guilds. Right now all we can go on is what we've been told. Another post explains in more detail why A and B Teams do not work from firsthand experience.

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I love the 'get two raids going idea' in theory it's a good idea, but in practice it doesn't work. We've tried it, others have too.

Guess what? My raiding guild has tried that(We've downed 11 bosses in Naxxramas to gage what our level of play is.) We used to be able to field over 80 members for Onyxia/MC. We were able to do it about 3 times. We ended up stopping it because of the following:

1) While we could consistently field plenty of total numbers, fielding the proper class mixes was difficult if not impossible.

2) Inevitably after some time one group begins to be considered the 'A' group and one group feels like the 'B' group. Either that or you end up reducing the skills and abilities of one raid to bring up the ability of the other raid.

3) While most of the people in my guild are friends with each other, (we regularly field 60 for Naxxramas) you still develop cliques. It's part of human interaction. The guild almost ended up splitting up when we put people in different raids.

4) Lets assume for a sec that on one night of the week you field enough people to run 2 raids and kill the first boss in the instance in both raids. Now on night two you end up having 9 healers on,(plenty for a 25 man raid) but 4 of them are tuned to one instance and 5 are tuned to the other instance. Doesn't work and actually slows progress through the instance for the entire guild.

We finally realized that one guild attempting to field two raids just doesn't work. After all, if you're running two raids why not have two guilds?

We originally started on warsong, and when we transferred to Gurubashi, we ended up losing some of our really good players simply because they didn't want to lose the ability to play with their friends in other guilds on Warsong. I imagine that if we were to attempt to field two raids again, we'd end up splitting and people who are friends will end up in different guilds.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Wait until people get thrown into his stomach and flip the fuck out, then die.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Ten Storms helps with keeping Ancestral Fortitude up at all times. I didn't see why ten storms needed crit until I saw Patchwerk and co.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Xellos

Paladins tanking is the end of the world. Please let that not happen!

You hordie warriors are going to feel the pain of losing plate to loladins soon as well. Your precious days of plate = warrior are soon over. I wouldn't mind if it's a competent paladin, but 99% of the paladins I saw that went for everything that had plate in it, were complete morons.

I can Heal! Need that plate!
I can Tank! Need that plate!
I can do damage! (lol) Need that plate!

Yes, there's plenty of them. Everytime I see a paladin with the best dps plate gear and a dark edge of insanity I cry IRL.

Luckily I'm a warrior and guild master

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by dagget

Got him to 11% before a Tranq shot missed and he just ate the MT up.

Have two hunters at a time fire tranq shot. The chance that both will be resisted is minimal at best.

How ya doing, buddy?

Become an herbalist. You'll have gold pouring out of every orifice.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by The_Griffin

300 herbalism already. The only problem is that I'm too lazy I don't have enough time.

Don't play an MMORPG.

FELIPE NO

The questing system is exactly the same. Being able to solo quests was one of the draws of the game to casual players who can only play 10 minutes a week.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by dagget

ah-ha I'll handle this one :P

14/0/37

This is superior if the build is for raiding. Being a tank and having a single point, or any points, in rend is a big wtf. If you wanted to you could also move some points around and get Unbridled Wrath or Iron Will, depending on the instance you're raiding most at the moment.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Turbo

I'm only level 20 so I'm still a ways off from raiding. Im just looking for something balanced so that I can solo, and when guild or LFG people need a tank for those low instances im going to be starting, I'd be able to tank decently without needing a respec.

Nothing pre-60 requires a single point in Protection to tank. Just get a shield and a decent one-hander and you're good to go. For leveling purposes I'd go with a classic arms/fury build.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Turbo

Classis arms fury build = what? I mean, as I level, which talents should I raise, which should I move to before maxing the others, etc.. :P use that tallent site thingy

Basic Arms/Fury build. Max out Cruelty then start dumping your points in Arms, dropping a few in Fury at your leisure. Only use a two-hander as arms/fury unless you're tanking something. If you want to dual wield, go fury. Focus on +str gear without gimping your HP pool or crit %.

Basic Fury build. Fury can be played a number of different ways, so several of these points can be moved all over the place depending on how you like to play the spec. This just takes experience. As for what to spend, I would max out TM before I started dumping into fury. TM makes life a lot easier. If you're going to stick with fury start grabbing +hit gear.

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That's a pretty cool build, Six, but this one hasn't really failed me yet and I've been specced this way an entire year. I FEAR CHANGE!

Well it's correct for the most part, but you have some utterly wasted talents points, especially if you're supposed to be tanking for a raid.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Turbo

Thanks

What about Stances now. I'm going to go with the Basic Arms/Fury build. Should I always stay in defense stance, or alternate.. whats my plan of attack :P

As an arms/fury warrior you will pretty much only use defensive stance in two scenarios.

1. You're tanking something.
2. You're disarming somebody, then switching back to another stance.


Learning when to use what stance just takes experience playing a warrior. Most of the time you'll either be in Battle or Berserker stance, depending on the situation. For instance, when you know a mob/player has a fear you switch to Berserker Stance beforehand and get ready to pop Berserker Rage. When I'm fighting rogues I stay in battle stance since I have imp overpower + phat lewt and can kill them if they dodge a couple times. If I'm quick/lucky enough I can sometimes switch to berserker stance and hit berserker rage to break or make myself immune to their gouge.

Eventually you'll get the hang of things and master the "Stance Dance."

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Zio

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

I like that build better.

:lolsign:

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by dagget

I get the job done, that's all that matters

A tricycle can get the job of transporting me to work done but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by dagget

When you pay my $15/month then you can tell me how to play my warrior. I'm actually tired of your little snippets and quick jabs at me. Don't exactly know what the problem is but sheesh.

Chill out, champ. Don't take everything so personally.

FELIPE NO

Orcs are easily the best warriors. Grab an axe and enjoy resisting every stun ever.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by The_Griffin

Well, Warriors got buffed out the wazoo today.

2 points' TM trainable at 20, with the rest as a 3-point talent in Prot.

10% health regen every time they get stunned/immobilized.

Imp. MS that increases damage by 5% and reduces the cooldown by 1 second.

Rampage buffed to give 300 AP.

Not bad, overall. They need it, Lord knows.

Sweet. Warriors aren't a living hell to play in the expansion now.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by The_Griffin

And considering that raiders will wind up getting better gear than everybody else because they're RAIDING, all this is pointless anyway.

Pretty much.

Casuals gloating to raiders that level 63 blues are better than Naxx gear crack me up. Who do they think will get said blues first, hit 70 first, and get the endgame gear first?

There's nowhere I can't reach.