Prospect of peace in middle east

What do you say? Since Hamas has taken the seat of Palestine government, prospect of peace toward Israel-Palestine seems so far away. Both sides just keep positional bargaining, means they wont lower they position thus making thing wont work out. I feel poor for palestinian people.

What do you think the prospect of this never-ending-conflict in the world? Do we need to wait nuclear blow off the entire continent so that they will talk constructively in this matter?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Israeli-Palestinian relations is not the only source of instability in the region (unless you just mean that general area when you say "Middle East"). Though, on a side note, I am impressed with how hard Mahmoud Abbas appears to be trying to keep Hamas in check.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I doubt there's going to be a resolution to this conflict until one side wipes out the other. I'm thinking along the lines of the Native American - American settler conflict. Genocide was largely the final result that ended that particular conflict.

There's plenty of instances in history where two differing sides met and only one side was able to walk away. So I don't think it's that far-fetched even in this modern age.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

The question is more "will this conflict involve the rest of the world?" and all signs point to yes.

I really wouldn't shed a tear if we just let the middle east degrade into all out chaos. Israel inflicts heavy (and I do mean, heavy) damages on the rest of the Arab population, before being driven completely into the sea. Then the EU and the US, mop up the aftermath and FREE OIL LIKE WUT.

Unfortunately, You've got Israel/US/Allied Forces on one side, and Palestine/Iran/Syria/Russia/China/DPRK on the other and a bunch of other nations that could go either way including Pakistan and India. Pakistan would most likely side with Palestine and India would swing in favor of us because they hate Pakistan.

We could sort of just drop our support of Israel in the region, considering that there's no real logical reason why we support them. Hell, that's the main reason we're so hated by the Arabs. We could have much stronger allies in the region than Israel, but we chose to support Israel and I think it's largely due to our religious standings.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Israel is the most powerful nation in the middle east, and you suggest we could have stronger allies there?

No thanks. Most of those muslim nations hate us already, even not supporting Israel anymore would do no good.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Palestine/Iran/Syria/Russia/China/DPRK on the other and a bunch of other nations that could go either way including Pakistan and India. Pakistan would most likely side with Palestine and India would swing in favor of us because they hate Pakistan.

No no no, Palestine would be forever alone in this conflict. Palestine in fact is just used as rhetoric by these arab nations to gain attention. Have they helped palestine any way in history? they never has and never will. It's almost impossible such alliances would happen. These countries have too much different interest and they wouldnt be most likely joining force soon.

Originally Posted by Stealth

Most of those muslim nations hate us already, even not supporting Israel anymore would do no good.

Have you asked yourself before why muslim nations hate you already?

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

We could sort of just drop our support of Israel in the region, considering that there's no real logical reason why we support them. Hell, that's the main reason we're so hated by the Arabs. We could have much stronger allies in the region than Israel, but we chose to support Israel and I think it's largely due to our religious standings.

...
and I thought there has been growing sentiment of anti-semit in your country. US supports Israel mainly because it's truly the only democratic country in middle east.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by eriol

Have you asked yourself before why muslim nations hate you already?

I personally think a good portion of it is simply a matter of incompatability and thank goodness we're on opposite sides of the world from each other. From our point of view muslim nations appear oppressive and archaic but from their point of view I'm sure we look like a bunch of blasphemous whores. I think it should just be an "agree to disagree" sorta thing and both sides should just live and let live, we should both just respect each other's right to be the way they are.
Of course our policy in the middle east isn't helping things.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by eriol

US supports Israel mainly because it's truly the only democratic country in middle east.

Or because some high ranking Americans are Christian Zionists hoping to bring about a second coming. Just throwing out an alternate opinion.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Personally, I believe this hate comes from historical reasons. I took middle east history for fun (since I needed an elective)... and I think I understand it perfectly. IF I were that country I'd probably wanna tear you guys apart... but then again it's in the PAST.... however, the past also shapes up the future. And oppresive leaders, shitty economy is all thanks to us - not the United States, but the super powers of that time (perhaps the US being a super power now is ...)

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Israel is the most powerful nation in the middle east, and you suggest we could have stronger allies there?

No thanks. Most of those muslim nations hate us already, even not supporting Israel anymore would do no good.

A) Israel is the most powerful nation in the Middle East entirely due to American aid. It would cease to be that way should the US decide to work with another partner, and indeed, many other nations have so much more potential than a tiny country with only 6 million people.

B) Yes, dropping Israel would. Israel is the Arab world's biggest gripe with the US, even more than Iraq. Dropping Israel would go extremely far to help US relations with Arab states.

Granted, dropping Israel in favor of another partner is never going to happen, but even a balanced and fair relationship would do wonders considering the current state of affairs.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Sorry for out of the topic... are you really come from Saudi Arabia? Just curious.

How ya doing, buddy?

Today's news:

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JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An Israeli navy gunboat fired shells onto a northern Gaza beach Friday, killing at least seven people and prompting the military wing of Hamas to call off a 16-month-old cease-fire with Israel.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html

Looks like it's on again.

The Arabs and Jews have been at war with each other since the Biblical days. I can't see peace EVER existing unless there is
1.) Fundamental shift in the practice of Islam. Such as if Islam is a religion of peace, act like it.
2.) Muslims wipe out all Jews/Christians or vice versa.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

...
oh please. Why people always generalize the war between Israel-Palestine happened because of religion? It's totally a wrong viewpoint. The main reason palestinian hates Israel is because te jewish have applied the Nazi's method when interrogating palestinian and harrasing the human rights of these arab. I live in the moslem-populated country and believe me, people that do extreme practicing and anarchy are called nerds here by the moslem themselves. I dont think idea of changing the fundamentality of Islam would be possible and it's not the islam at the fault, it's the fault of some fucktard called exteremists.

Palestine itself couldn't be considered unitary since it's actually splitted between the secular (PLO) and fundamental geeks (Hamas). Israel hates Palestine mainly because Hamas use the self-bombing-method which is really useful to increase the victim over Israel side during intifada though the number of palestinian victim always outnumbers the jewish.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Well, looking back at the history of the conflict, it seems heavily based in religion. Granted, Islam didn't really come about until sometime in the late 7th century, but since then you've had the crusades and the reinstitution of Israel as a sovereign nation after the second world war. Also, tracing any sort of "original ownership" in that region is kind of difficult, because if memory serves in the last 2500 or so years foreign conquest has been a constant: Persians->Macedonians->Romans->Persians (again?)->Crusaders->Turks->20th century.

I'm not anti-semetic, I'm not really anti-anything except anti-stupid. Historically the Israelites were nomadic people, it's because of a religious belief that the Palestinians and the Israelis can't get along. The Israelis want that particular piece of land because it holds religious meaning to them, the Palestinians want it because it was once their homeland.

Right now things are fucked up because the Israelis do enjoy a great amount of wealth and power in the region due to American influence. However, their neighbors live in slums. I'd be pretty fucking angry if I were Palestinian, too. Again, the Israelis' prosperity does come at a huge price. Mandatory service in the military for all citizens, regardless of sex. Living on edge because you never know when the next bus ride will be your last.

It is a complicated issue, I will give you that.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by knkwzrd

Or because some high ranking Americans are Christian Zionists hoping to bring about a second coming. Just throwing out an alternate opinion.

I'm not really sure what the fuck you're saying or what your point is. Are you proposing that powerful members of the United States government want to bring about the Apocalypse? What?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Right now things are fucked up because the Israelis do enjoy a great amount of wealth and power in the region due to American influence. However, their neighbors live in slums. I'd be pretty fucking angry if I were Palestinian, too.

As you stated before, Israel enjoy the hegemonic power in the area because of america uncoditional support, which I concur wholly. But it makes me wondering sometimes. Which is weaker actually? Israel or Palestine? The premise said, "Israel is strong because it's backed up by US" doesnt that mean it implicitly says, 'unless America doesnt support Israel, it is a weak state' (politically I guess).

Is that logical in any way?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Uhh, that's kind of what I'm saying, is that if we stop supporting Israel, it will be a weak state. It will, inevitably, be overrun by the surrounding nations that want to stake claim to their land.

Iran would be a much stronger ally, economically and militarily than Israel. We'd also probably become ALOT more friendly with Saudi Arabia, due to the fact that we buy their oil and are at least on speaking terms with them. If we've got those two on our side, Syria will undoubtedly follow.

Off-topic: Really, if we wanted to counteract the potential economic threat China poses in the coming decades, dumping Israel in favor of gaining Arab states' trust and cooperation would put us in the right direction. Because, right now, China is going to need a vast amount of oil to support their up and coming plans for industry expansion, if we can secure that oil source for our means, it would put China out of the game.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Uhh, that's kind of what I'm saying, is that if we stop supporting Israel, it will be a weak state. It will, inevitably, be overrun by the surrounding nations that want to stake claim to their land.

Could such condition be possible? I dont understand the entire system of US gov, but I heard that Jewish in parliementery is the one controlling US in term of decision making process. Feel free to correct me. I dont really study US' system comprehensively.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Iran would be a much stronger ally, economically and militarily than Israel. We'd also probably become ALOT more friendly with Saudi Arabia, due to the fact that we buy their oil and are at least on speaking terms with them. If we've got those two on our side, Syria will undoubtedly follow.

You know, actually the bargaining position of both US and China is confusing. We could say US is in higher level or vice verca. Even though China enjoy rapid economic development, currently it's threatened by internal conflict within itself which might causing the collapse of the state eventually. The communist government has done their best to legitimate their influence and government in the China and repressing anything that have to do with democracy.

But the question is: how long a negative peace could last? In many conflicts in the world, especially the ones controlled by an authoritarian government, revolution eventually come and destablize itself. In this viewpoint we could say china is weaker than US, but here we find some paradox. While it's true that china's internal conflict has been raising in numbers, thus we call it a weak state, it enjoys surpluses in context of economic-relationship between many countries, it even causes US deficit reaches 22 bn dollar. Those contradictives eventually make me thinking which one actually stronger than other?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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Sorry for out of the topic... are you really come from Saudi Arabia? Just curious.

I live there, im not actually Saudi.

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Looks like it's on again.

The Arabs and Jews have been at war with each other since the Biblical days. I can't see peace EVER existing unless there is
1.) Fundamental shift in the practice of Islam. Such as if Islam is a religion of peace, act like it.
2.) Muslims wipe out all Jews/Christians or vice versa.

Or the Israeli's agree to sit down with an elected government and talk about moving to the borders the rest of the world wants them at, 1967. It's doesn't need to be bloody, most Arab countries will be supportive and acknowledge Israel if it decides to pull back to the '67 borders and start acting kindly to its neighbors, instead of oppressing them.

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Uhh, that's kind of what I'm saying, is that if we stop supporting Israel, it will be a weak state. It will, inevitably, be overrun by the surrounding nations that want to stake claim to their land.

Iran would be a much stronger ally, economically and militarily than Israel. We'd also probably become ALOT more friendly with Saudi Arabia, due to the fact that we buy their oil and are at least on speaking terms with them. If we've got those two on our side, Syria will undoubtedly follow.

Israel has 400 of its own nuclear weapons, nobody is pulling any stunts.

Iran is a easy US ally if the sides started to act conciliatory. Iran's people are generally friendly with the US, and if the sides started to cooperate and talk a bit, I'm sure you'd find Iran capable of being a major US ally, its just a matter of one side taking the initiative. Rhetoric changes according to circumstances, and it would in the case of the Ayatollahs if regional issues changed.

Saudi Arabia is already the US's biggest ally in the region outside Israel. There would be less friction without Israeli/Palestinian issues, but at the same time, it wouldn't be as great a leap as people expect. The governments and private sectors of the countries cooperate so much already that the extent of it would probably surprise you. It is the regions major military and economic power (militarily, outside Israel, but economically, not), and is on good terms with the US for hundreds of reasons.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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Or the Israeli's agree to sit down with an elected government and talk about moving to the borders the rest of the world wants them at, 1967. It's doesn't need to be bloody, most Arab countries will be supportive and acknowledge Israel if it decides to pull back to the '67 borders and start acting kindly to its neighbors, instead of oppressing them.

Israel tried (see Oslo accords) but the Palestinians wouldn't have it.

From Wikipedia:

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An agreement on the withdrawal of Israeli military forces from the Gaza Strip and Jericho area. This agreement will include comprehensive arrangements to apply in the Gaza Strip and the Jericho area subsequent to the Israeli withdrawal.

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Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, which were known as the "refusal organizations", objected to the accords since they completely denounced Israel's right to exist, refusing to recognize what they dubbed the "Zionist entity". Their resistance was expressed in their acts of terror.

Also, the territories post '67 were seized by Israel AFTER Egypt, Jordan and Syria attempted to push Israel into the sea. In addition - Iraq, Sudan, Kuwait, and Algeris also mobilized its forces to attack Israel.

After defeating every attacking arab country on 4 fronts Israel seized the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, Sinai Penninsula and the West Bank.

Israel fortified all 4 areas as they would serve as buffer as Israel would face continual assault from the arabs.

7 years later, Egypt and Syria commits a surprise attack on Israel known as the Yom Kipper war. The Egyptian/Syrian armies cross into the Golan Heights/Sinai Penninsula and were defeated within two weeks.

So no, I wouldn't expect Israel to give back those territories as they were acquired through self defense and for self defense. Besides, many of the people of that era have died of old age or have been incapacitated. (Note Ariel Sharron and Yassar Arafat). You have a newer generation of Arabs who weren't even born during those wars that are continuing to fight Israel.

And I dare say that Israel is pretty damn tolerent to its neighbors considering how often they instigate attacks. Israel didnt shell the west bank for the HELL of it, they are doing it to wipe out artillary positions from the Palestinians. If Israel was so reppresive, they would just simply wipe out every Arab within range of its borders. Something the Arabs tried to do back in 1967 and would do so today if they had the means of doing so.

Most amazing jew boots

Israel isn't innocent at all, man.

You've heard about what happened in the Gaaza beach just days ago, right?

I was speaking idiomatically.

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Also, the territories post '67 were seized by Israel AFTER Egypt, Jordan and Syria attempted to push Israel into the sea. In addition - Iraq, Sudan, Kuwait, and Algeris also mobilized its forces to attack Israel.

After defeating every attacking arab country on 4 fronts Israel seized the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, Sinai Penninsula and the West Bank.

Israel fortified all 4 areas as they would serve as buffer as Israel would face continual assault from the arabs.

7 years later, Egypt and Syria commits a surprise attack on Israel known as the Yom Kipper war. The Egyptian/Syrian armies cross into the Golan Heights/Sinai Penninsula and were defeated within two weeks.

So no, I wouldn't expect Israel to give back those territories as they were acquired through self defense and for self defense. Besides, many of the people of that era have died of old age or have been incapacitated. (Note Ariel Sharron and Yassar Arafat). You have a newer generation of Arabs who weren't even born during those wars that are continuing to fight Israel.

And I dare say that Israel is pretty damn tolerent to its neighbors considering how often they instigate attacks. Israel didnt shell the west bank for the HELL of it, they are doing it to wipe out artillary positions from the Palestinians. If Israel was so reppresive, they would just simply wipe out every Arab within range of its borders. Something the Arabs tried to do back in 1967 and would do so today if they had the means of doing so.

They aren't tolerant at all. Invading one neighbor and starting another war don't qualify as tolerant at all. The very existence of the country was a broken pledge to the Arabs, and it shouldn't even be there in the first place. Arabs shouldn't be paying the price for the crimes against humanity of other nations during WW2, they weren't even involved in the war.

How ya doing, buddy?

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Israel isn't innocent at all, man.

You've heard about what happened in the Gaaza beach just days ago, right?

Yes, hence my comment that Israel didn't shell the Gaza beach for the hell of it. They didn't WANT to kill those 7 people on that beach. They are investigating the incident and posted an apology in CASE they were responsible.

Palestine AIMS for maximum civillian casulties. You can't say it's just a few "crazies" considering they ELECTED HAMAS to be in charge of things.

I'm not saying Israel is perfect. You can dig up their share of atrocities as well BUT I think its fair to say they have been the more civillized party in this war.

Wish I could find the story and the images but an event that stuck out in particular was a few years back two IDF soldiers took a wrong turn and was caught by Palestinians.

Both soldiers were beaten to death and there were pictures of Palestinians as young as 16 raising their bloodied hands and screaming how great 'God' is. They procede to multilate the corpses and then hang the bodies up for all to see.

That level of blind genocidal hatred is why there there can never be peace in the middle east without

1.) a fundamental change in how Islam is practiced. Christians have pillaged and killed in the name of God as well btw. Howevever it's 2006 and Islam is still doing it.

2.) One side wipes out the other. The Arabs either do another combined assault that pushes Israel to the sea or Israel invades and levels a radius around its current borders. They prohibit Arabs from even coming close to their borders and adopt a policy of substantial and instant retaliation for any attempts to attack Israel.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

Yes, hence my comment that Israel didn't shell the Gaza beach for the hell of it. They didn't WANT to kill those 7 people on that beach. They are investigating the incident and posted an apology in CASE they were responsible.

Oh maybe they wish to. Casualites always greater in Palestine side. I never heard anything about Israel addressing apology for once though, maybe it's in diplomatic level, but public never knows.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

Palestine AIMS for maximum civillian casulties. You can't say it's just a few "crazies" considering they ELECTED HAMAS to be in charge of things.

Please address the terrosist as Hamas or another Israel-proclaimed terrorist groups. PLO, Palestinian Civillians, and Hamas are seperate entities. If you know PLO you will be pissed of like the Palestinians did. Apart from their struggle in international level and diplomacy, they are bunch of shithole corruptors.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

I'm not saying Israel is perfect. You can dig up their share of atrocities as well BUT I think its fair to say they have been the more civillized party in this war.

Wish I could find the story and the images but an event that stuck out in particular was a few years back two IDF soldiers took a wrong turn and was caught by Palestinians.

Both soldiers were beaten to death and there were pictures of Palestinians as young as 16 raising their bloodied hands and screaming how great 'God' is. They procede to multilate the corpses and then hang the bodies up for all to see.

Source please if you could provide. I respect your argument, but in this case, we may heard some propaganda. And I agree, Israel is far from perfect. They are the worst violator of human right, the same might apply as well to palestinian extremist.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

That level of blind genocidal hatred is why there there can never be peace in the middle east without

1.) a fundamental change in how Islam is practiced. Christians have pillaged and killed in the name of God as well btw. Howevever it's 2006 and Islam is still doing it.

Rather than changing the fundamental practice which utterly as impossible as attempt to make Vatican agrees what's written in Da Vinci Code, I argue it would be much better to secularize the people like Turkey, AFAIK it's the best model for secularized islam-populated country, cmiw. Indonesia is bad example, while most of people are moderated islam, bunch of fucktard extremist do exist.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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Source please if you could provide. I respect your argument, but in this case, we may heard some propaganda. And I agree, Israel is far from perfect. They are the worst violator of human right, the same might apply as well to palestinian extremist.

BBC news source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/969778.stm

Some video of the lynching:
http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=53101

Pictures of the two lynched IDF soldiers. *GRAPHIC, not safe for work*
http://inhonor.net/ramlah/

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Oh maybe they wish to. Casualites always greater in Palestine side. I never heard anything about Israel addressing apology for once though, maybe it's in diplomatic level, but public never knows.

They published an apology in an Israeli newspaper. The source is in the original CNN link.

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Please address the terrosist as Hamas or another Israel-proclaimed terrorist groups. PLO, Palestinian Civillians, and Hamas are seperate entities. If you know PLO you will be pissed of like the Palestinians did. Apart from their struggle in international level and diplomacy, they are bunch of shithole corruptors.

I will be more careful in distinguishing the groups. However the Palestinian people freely ELECTED Hamas a terrorist organization by any one's standards.

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They are the worst violator of human right, the same might apply as well to palestinian extremist.

I'd say Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milosevic, whoever is in charge of the Rebels in the Congo, Abu Sayaff - Israel isn't the worst.

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I argue it would be much better to secularize the people like Turkey, AFAIK it's the best model for secularized islam-populated country, cmiw. Indonesia is bad example, while most of people are moderated islam, bunch of fucktard extremist do exist.

That I wholeheartedly agree with. If all the Middle Eastern countries were like Turkey, that would be a productive start.
Out of curiosity, do you know how Turkey treats other religions? Could there be a open public Buddhist Temple or Christian church?

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They aren't tolerant at all. Invading one neighbor and starting another war don't qualify as tolerant at all. The very existence of the country was a broken pledge to the Arabs, and it shouldn't even be there in the first place. Arabs shouldn't be paying the price for the crimes against humanity of other nations during WW2, they weren't even involved in the war.

When did Israel invade a neighbor and started a war? I could dig up about half a dozen events at least where arab countries invaded and attacked Israel (GOVERNMENTS not random terrorist). I will look more into the origins but wouldn't you agree what's done is done? 3 generations has passed since the founding of Israel. No matter the hatred, is an event such as the Ramallah lynching neccessary? Israel is likely to be elimiminated from a global map as likely as America giving California back to Mexico. You just deal with the way things are TODAY like civiillized people.

Jam it back in, in the dark.