Marines cover up massacre in Iraq

I know this is yet another "Iraq"-topic and while these are generally frowned upon in Political Palace, I think issues such as these absolutely need to be discussed:

Quote:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A preliminary military inquiry found evidence that U.S. Marines killed two dozen Iraqi civilians in an unprovoked attack in November, contradicting the troops' account, U.S. officials said on Wednesday.

President George W. Bush said he was troubled by news stories on the November 19 killings of men, women and children in the town of Haditha, and a general at the Pentagon said the incident could complicate the job for the 130,000 U.S. troops in Iraq.

"Allegations such as this, regardless of how they are borne out by the facts, can have an effect on the ability of U.S. forces to continue to operate," Army Brig. Gen. Carter Ham, deputy director for regional operations for the military's Joint Staff, told a Pentagon briefing.

Forensic data from corpses showed victims with bullet wounds, despite earlier statements by Marines that civilians were killed by a roadside bomb that also claimed the life of a Marine from El Paso, Texas, Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, a defense official said.

"The forensics painted a different story than what the Marines had said," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter.

The official said there were wounds that would not have been caused by an improvised explosive device. "Did someone shoot somebody just for the sake of taking him out?" the official said. "Bad things happened that day, and it appears Marines lied about it."

(...)

The incident could represent the worst-known case of misconduct by U.S. troops in Iraq, and comes at a time when opinion polls show falling U.S. public support for the 3-year-old war. Ham emphasized the importance of U.S. troops having the support of the Iraqi people and government.

(...)

Source: reuters.com

Another related article

There's absolutely no denying that things like these are happening in wars. The question arises, however, as to how much more the US government, military and public can take of this. There seems to be a high probability that this incident will turn out to be larger in scale than even Abu Ghureib. It's already put a damper on relations between the newly elected Iraqi government and the US.

So what do you make of this?

How ya doing, buddy?

As usual the left wing press has rushed to judgement against the U.S. military over the alleged "Haditha Massacre". The press and the left have already tried and convicted the Marines invovled, portraying them as nothing short of SS stormtroopers. They've been described as cold blooded killers of innocent children. All this of course before all the facts have been brought to light. Do these brilliant leftists have access to all the ballistic evidence? Do they know what happened prior to and during this incident. Have they accounted for the fact that insurgents comminly use civilians as shields? No, of course not...it Mai Lai all over agian, and they're salivating over the chance to drag the military through the mud again. Oh, they'll say, but we have the accounts of witnesses...well lets look at the veracity of those witnesses.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...553969,00.html

Hmmm, seems like this town is a shithole of terrorist activity. No reason anyone from Haditha would lie about what happened. I'm not saying that The Marines are innocent, I'm just saying that we don't know yet, and that it's pathetic how the left wing press seems almost eager to convict them.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I understand the ROE is unshakable and MUST be obliged to. But when a roadside bomb explodes next to you, the first thing one wants is the find the one responsible. I can easily see how civilians could have looked like the first people responsible... I have sympathy for the Marines, but they are bound by their vow to duty. They should pay for their transgressions.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Wesker

As usual the left wing press has rushed to judgement against the U.S. military over the alleged "Haditha Massacre". The press and the left have already tried and convicted the Marines invovled, portraying them as nothing short of SS stormtroopers. They've been described as cold blooded killers of innocent children. All this of course before all the facts have been brought to light. Do these brilliant leftists have access to all the ballistic evidence? Do they know what happened prior to and during this incident. Have they accounted for the fact that insurgents comminly use civilians as shields? No, of course not...it Mai Lai all over agian, and they're salivating over the chance to drag the military through the mud again. Oh, they'll say, but we have the accounts of witnesses...well lets look at the veracity of those witnesses.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...553969,00.html

Hmmm, seems like this town is a shithole of terrorist activity. No reason anyone from Haditha would lie about what happened. I'm not saying that The Marines are innocent, I'm just saying that we don't know yet, and that it's pathetic how the left wing press seems almost eager to convict them.

Yeah, this is all about bipartisan politics, and has nothing to do with the photographic and ballistic evidence that has already been brought to light. Wait, what?

Seriously, if you want to say "We don't know yet," then don't turn around and blame some kind of obfuscated liberalist agenda-pushing as the sole cause of the investigation.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I personally don't find this surprising. It's a war, people die. Sometimes, innocent people die. I don't think it's right, but I think it's inevitable.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Agreed. War is terrible. Collateral damage is an unfortunate but necessary price we pay for waging war. However, I believe this incident could have been better handled by the Marines, you know?

And Devo, don't make me shove my cock down your slutty mouth. Christ, leave me the fuck alone. You're as annoying a piggybacking a dead fucking polar bear.

How ya doing, buddy?

Devo's right.. These attacks were planned.. well not planned, but taken in account when producing the plan.. They're not "Unfortunate Mishaps" , they're "Acceptable losses"..

Which are only acceptable cuz its not on their side..

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No, no, not collateral damage or saturation bombing. Freedom Power. Third-degree freedoms necessitate some hospital time; what?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Wish it were just Hospital times they "necessitate"..

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Zato-1

Devo's right.. These attacks were planned.. well not planned, but taken in account when producing the plan.. They're not "Unfortunate Mishaps" , they're "Acceptable losses"..

Which are only acceptable cuz its not on their side..

Acceptable losses is when you achieve something like take an objective in battle with enough losses to make things look rational. It was done for the greater good, they gave in to the cause.

Unfortunate mishaps are unplanned and they shouldn't have happened. This is one of them. Nothing was gained here except civilian losses. If you think this was "planned," you need your god damn head examined. An IED went off near troops, one got killed, some of the other soldiers jumped the gun and went on a rampage of sorts.

That's all there is to it. There is no underlying plan. Something unfortunate happened. The marines involves should be prosecuted/punished.

Of course, the media in general will take this unfortunate happening as a chance to mudsling at the military along with all its members, past and present. That's what bothers me about this. I figured there'd be something like this eventually.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Devo

Actually people were killed in their homes, and the homes were ransacked, despite none of them being armed, and one weapon being found. Marines in that area are instructed not to shoot unless there is a real and probable threat. Unarmed civilians are not something to be shot at.

I never denied this. They went on a rampage. My guess is that their buddy being killed was enough for them to think they should go gun down folks in hopes that one of them set up the bomb.

It's to be expected. After all, the enemy in this situation doesn't wear a uniform.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

The only folks who should be blamed were the ones on-site who caused this situation. By higher ups, did TIME mean stuff like Generals and stuff like that? I hope to god not. Just punish the dumb bastards that screwed up. I seriously doubt the higher ups would want them to do this. Slaughtering civilians is counter-productive to the whole "stomping out terrorism" goal ((if that is even realistic)).

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Marines have a de-centralized view of leadership. A leader is anyone with initiative to lead at that moment. Therefore, the higher-ups should not be held responsible. However, they're still taking flak because officers are taught that their men are a reflection of themselves.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Really, though, what is there to talk about? The sociopolitical ramifications this incident will have on our Arab allies?

BORING.

If anything this'll just increase ticket sales for Valley of the Wolves.

IED goes off, kills a marine, his buddies go apeshit because they have no targets to retaliate against and killed a bunch of innocent people. End of story.

What'll be really damaging is how much effort is revealed to have been made by the military or the government in covering the massacre up.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

And all of you are also rushing to judgement..based on what. Rumors? Press reports? Accounts from "unbiased" civilians? The investigation isn't over, all the facta aren't out yet you're all so damn sure these guys went on a bloodthirsty rampage.

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Dozens of innocent people that weren't killed by roadside bombs.

WHO COULD IT BE!?

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Originally Posted by Bradylama

Dozens of innocent people that weren't killed by roadside bombs.

WHO COULD IT BE!?

Colonel Mustard with the candlestick. In the dining room.

Wesker --
Dude. Forensics have inspected it and debunked the stories the marines gave (see top article). It'd be hard for this NOT to be what it appears as. All signs point to troops going on a rampage. I'm all for glory in the military and what-not. But you have some folks who do the wrong stuff without thinking it through often.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Wesker

And all of you are also rushing to judgement..based on what. Rumors? Press reports? Accounts from "unbiased" civilians? The investigation isn't over, all the facta aren't out yet you're all so damn sure these guys went on a bloodthirsty rampage.

All signs point to: They did it. If they are found to be innocent, then you are right to assume that they didn't. If it turns out that they did murder a bunch of civilians, then the rest of us were right to consider it 'bad'.

Why is it that it is considered inappropriate for such 'negative' news to be spread and commented on? Everyone knows damn well that nothing is proven yet, but that doesn't mean that it should not be looked at based on the evidence available at the moment and tentative conclusions drawn.

How many people assumed that Islamic terrorists were to blame for 9/11 before there was any confirmation? Oh, oops, that was one you wanted to believe.

Everyone jumps to conclusions. The only trick is to reserve !final! judgement until everything is on that table. There is nothing in this thread to suggest that this is not the case.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by knkwzrd

I personally don't find this surprising. It's a war, people die. Sometimes, innocent people die. I don't think it's right, but I think it's inevitable.

There is a difference between unintentional collateral damage and deliberate murder of innocent, unarmed civilians =/

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I think they should start counting deliberate murder of innocent, unarmed civilians into collateral damage as well. Nerves go blank and such in wars.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I do not say that nerves cannot "go blank and such" in wars, but this proves that soldiers should not be trained to kill people, but to kill the right people.

Also, those victims didn't have anything to do with the death of that marine (?)

I was speaking idiomatically.

I am pretty sure they've had plenty ethics lessons before taking up the gun.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Yet, the most disturbing thing about that incident was the whole cover-up.

Note that the killings took place in November 2005. I'd say everyone involved did a tremendous job at hiding this from the public eye.

FELIPE NO

Quote:

I do not say that nerves cannot "go blank and such" in wars, but this proves that soldiers should not be trained to kill people, but to kill the right people.

That's what every nation on the planet already does. It's called "following orders."

American troops do receive ethics training, though not nearly enough. That said, no amount of ethics training could have prevented this situation from happening considering the amount of stress that our troops are placed under every single day. There has to be a breaking point at some point, and losing a pal is just the thing to bring the red mist.

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Since so many of you have made up your mind already heres a somewhat different opinion

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060531/...s_iraq_terraza

or this from a Seattle TV interview with the marine who was next to the Marine who was cut in half by the IED

Crossan: We used to go out on patrols and have the little kids count the patrols and all that stuff and we couldn’t really do anything except grab them and throw them inside their houses…
KING 5 TV interviewer: Why would you do that? Because you were afraid that the kids were scouting for the insurgents or you thought they were in danger?

Crossan: There are little kids that scout for ‘em. ‘Cuz later that day we, along the main road there, we cut behind a few buildings and the next patrol that went out got hit. And that little kid that was just there and there was people all around. But the day that I got hit they were planning a major attack and it got spoiled, so, and there was like 20 some people, insurgents, that were gonna attack the cop that day.

Then we got hit by an IED and the cops sent out a squad of Marines, and the insurgents just started attacking then, just right off the bat and we just foiled it. We were just driving back from the cop. I remember taking a left and then a right, and then remember waking up from the ground for a split second. And then waking up in the helicopter and then finally knew what happened in the hospital.

KING 5: So after you were injured, also tell me, you lost one of your guys. What can you tell me about him?

Crossan: We lost Lance Col. Miguel Terrazas. He was a good guy. He was from El Paso, Texas. And he was my point man. He was pretty much the guy I went to if I needed anything.

KING 5: Was he driving the Humvee at the time?

Crossan: Yes he was.

KING 5. And so you were sitting next to me?

Crossan: Yes, I was in the passenger side. I know in my heart if I was there, I possibly could have stopped what happened, so. ‘Cuz I know that the other team leaders and even staff sergeants…they both, they all kinda, listened to me and I just gave ‘em ideas and all that stuff. Things just went smoother. But I just don’t know.

KING 5: How do you feel about the villagers involved? Um, you know, do you have emotion as you think about them or not really?

Crossan: No. Because half of them were bad guys. You just never know, so. It really didn’t cross my mind.

KING 5: There are reports of, you know, little children being killed and women being killed.

Crossan: Little kids I can see being bad and even some of the women, but just over there, you just can’t tell who the bad guy was..."

or this from an imbedded CNN reporter

It actually took me a while to put all the pieces together -- that I know these guys, the U.S. Marines at the heart of the alleged massacre of Iraqi civilians in Haditha.

I don't know why it didn't register with me until now. It was only after scrolling through the tapes that we shot in Haditha last fall, and I found footage of some of the officers that had been relieved of their command, that it hit me.

I know the Marines that were operating in western al Anbar, from Husayba all the way to Haditha. I went on countless operations in 2005 up and down the Euphrates River Valley. I was pinned on rooftops with them in Ubeydi for hours taking incoming fire, and I've seen them not fire a shot back because they did not have positive identification on a target. (Watch a Marine's anguish over deaths -- 2:12)

I saw their horror when they thought that they finally had identified their target, fired a tank round that went through a wall and into a house filled with civilians. They then rushed to help the wounded -- remarkably no one was killed.

I was with them in Husayba as they went house to house in an area where insurgents would booby-trap doors, or lie in wait behind closed doors with an AK-47, basically on suicide missions, just waiting for the Marines to come through and open fire. There were civilians in the city as well, and the Marines were always keenly aware of that fact. How they didn't fire at shadows, not knowing what was waiting in each house, I don't know. But they didn't.

And I was with them in Haditha, a month before the alleged killings last November of some 24 Iraqi civilians.

So, all you Monday morning quaterbacks who have never faced a life or death situation except while playing a video game, perhaps you can manage to reserve judgement on these guys until we have all the facts.

Does anyone remember LT. Pantano..accused of murdering iraqis, crucified in the press..and found NOT GUILTY.

Jam it back in, in the dark.