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It occurs to me recently. I believe that I believe that religion, in general, exists in order that man should transcend himself. The emotional archetypes we see represented in our gods and goddesses, we grow to embody them with worship. In this sense, we can tap into resources that would otherwise be beyond our reach. There is power there. It is a wondrous thing.
Perhaps I might even venture that the christian god makes things difficult in this fashion, attempting to embody too many conflicting archetypes. Jam it back in, in the dark.
Last edited by Radez; Jul 3, 2006 at 10:19 PM.
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I don't really believe in any religion. I'm starting to read about scientology but I don't believe in it. At first I thought it was just about aliens and stuff like that (blame south park) but it's not.
There's nowhere I can't reach.
Last edited by jouhou; Jul 6, 2006 at 08:57 PM.
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You're correct in saying abortions affect society. Unfortunately you apparently have no clue as to how it does. An amazing economist, Steven Levitt, published an abortion paper in 2001 detailing how the availability of abortion for the poor urban population of the US had strong correlation to crime rates steeply declining from 1991 to 2001. Would-be criminals coming into their 20's were instead aborted when clinics opened up everywhere in the 70s. You can read a detailed account of his argument in his book Freakonomics. Your argument that abortion makes people care less about each other is rediculous. Show some facts or evidence. I don't think decreasing crime rates will do much in the way of helping your argument.
You keep arguing that society with birth control causes more unwanted children then society with no birth control, but you provide no evidence. You know what happens when somebody gets pregnant while using birth control? They get an abortion in most cases. Your world of no-contraception no-abortion will lead to a STEEP increase in number of unwanted births.
Of course, I'm not sure where you stand. I'm coming to the conclusion that you're pro-life, but want government regulations to remain pro-choice. If this is true, that's fine. Just know that the Catholic doctrine on when life starts isn't scriptural. This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. |
FallDragon, you're wrong on so many counts I don't know where to start!
Unfortunately I don't have the time to provide all the evidence that the Catholic Church provided for me when I was learning all of this stuff. I do need to say this though:
Anyway, I have a friend that was in my RCIA class that really struggles with the communion thing because his family would not be able to take communion at his wedding. This is very difficult to explain fully, but the reason Catholics "don't let" other Christians take communion is because we believe that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Christ. ALL other christian religions do not believe this, so they are not in communion with our beliefs. Therefore, they cannot partake of it.
There is a growing problem of relativism in many nations that leads to many problems. People that believe in something should be able to speak about it and fight for their beliefs. Relativism causes people to be afraid of voicing their beliefs because of the risk of offending someone else or being forced to defend their beliefs and possibly shake their faith. People don't realize that without shaking your faith now and then it never grows. That's sad. I'm not really afraid of your arguments because they boil down to personal attacks and ignorance toward my faith. For the record, throwing Freakonomics at me doesn't add much validity to your arguments. A study done between 1991 to 2001 has so many other variables involved that it might not be completely accurate. I haven't read it but based on what you say it sounds like it may draw conclusions based on what the doc believes is true. Plus, contraceptives go WAY farther back than 1991. Look at the big picture.
PLEASE read my other posts on this one page back. I think you'll find that you're putting words in my mouth (which I don't appreciate) and that you're completely missing my point on the subject!
I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? |
Hmmm Religion what it means to me...Well I don't know. From what i've read, viewed and seen, Religion looks more like a negative than a positive. People die, kill and commit acts that are heinous, under the name of God. However, that doesn't mean in any way i'm against Religion or God...
Me personally, im going through a spiritual crisis, and have been for two years. Ever since my Grandmother died...the fear of death is very huge for me. I fear death, because I feel I truly do not know what will happen after I die. Will I continue existing? Will I not? I was raised Catholic, and I should know that my soul will continue on...but I have a very big fear, that it was...not real. So my conflict is all about death, and that in turn, puts me in a spiritual crisis. Religiously...I feel empty, there's nothing there and I don't think I want a religion per se, but more of a spirituality. I don't think it's right or fair to put down other spiritual or relgious groups, and claim you have the only right and true religion or whatever. I don't think Buddhists and Native Americans who are clearly in touch with...something that is in this world or beyond it. They feel something within themselves and with the entire planet, and to put them as "blasphemers" is something I just find cruel and unfair. I guess what i'm trying to say is...I know there is a God, or some high being out there. However right now, my heart and spirit is still searching for it. I want to find the peace, love and harmony. I guess that's but a journey of life. I was speaking idiomatically. |
Chocobo |
Maybe we should start a thread "On the Existence of God" and work our way up to these issues... What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? |
Correct. But I don't really care. Those are doctrines of Catholicism, not scriptural. What foundation do they have? None. All they cause is division, and make fellow Christians feel that Catholicism is an exclusive, elitist community. You think Jesus is up in Heaven going, "Good job guys! Don't let that other 80% of Christianity take communion with you! They're a bunch of bums who don't know the true meaning of it."??
How ya doing, buddy? |
Chocobo |
According to Philosophy:
1.)"It is always morally wrong to deliberatly (knowingly and willingly) kill (force death upon by an act of violence) an innocent (not deserving of death - has done nothing to justify being killed) person." 2.)"An unborn (developing) human being (product of human conception) is an innocent person" <!--Argument for the 2nd statement--> So, is a fetus a person? Ok, Adult, Teenager, Child, Infant, Fetus, -these are all stages of development of ONE entity. <!--Conclusion--> So, if we can argue that the deliberate killing of an innocent person is ALWAYS wrong, and that a fetus is ALWAYs a person, then abortion is ALWAYS morally wrong. <src="peterkreeft.com"> How ya doing, buddy? |
Most amazing jew boots |
Chocobo |
Right, but according to the dictionary, a person is a "human body." Not a "human body ONLY with a consciousness."
I guess these arguments could really go on forever. There's nowhere I can't reach. |
I don't feel elitist at all. "We believe in ONE, HOLY, Catholic, and Apostolic church" is what we say in the Nicene creed. Catholic also means "universal". We want others to join our church (just like every other faith) but have to respect other's faiths while remaining true to our own. Respecting is a BIG part of being Catholic. I think a lot of people have a lot of misconceptions about Catholics, and there are many stereotypes related to it. They had to come from somewhere, but I think people take it to an extreme. Obviously Catholics do this too. All I can do is be the best role model Catholic I can be. It's very hard to live like Jesus, especially when our beliefs are under attack.
Sorry you misunderstood it. This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. |
As for my other requests for proof, they concerned these two comments you made: "I did notice that you mentioned that abortions do not affect society though. The value of human life in a society directly affects how that society acts toward each other." and "Sex crimes have escalated since the advent of contraception." So, in order for me to believe what you're saying, you'll need to give me some proof. Otherwise, why should I believe you? Double Post:
I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
Last edited by FallDragon; Jul 14, 2006 at 05:14 PM.
Reason: Automerged additional post.
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For me, it was faith who keep me going through the hard path of my life...
I was speaking idiomatically. |
Definition please? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll#In_Internet_Forums A person who enters unknown forums who bashes and insults forum members with unfounded arguments, or anyone that enters any sort of internet community for the sole purpose of harassing others is often referred to as a troll. Ah, I thought I was right. He's on the border here, IMO . . . What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? |
So debate is considered harassing?
FELIPE NO |
When it crosses lines and is mostly one-sided, yes.
Most amazing jew boots |
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Seriously guys learn to read first post and make another thread for the debate. This is not what the thread is for obviously.
Anyhow I would say I am a gnostic that don't believe any force debscribed in human religion started all this. This being this reality coming from nothing. Jam it back in, in the dark. |
I'm not offended. I'm just telling how other people I know have reacted to the Church.
Anyway if you have nothing more to contribue, I'm done. How ya doing, buddy? |
Chocobo |
Crazy world!
This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. |
Religion has defined a moral construct for me to a certain degree. I know of my guilty conscience that aligns with the religious teachings. However, I really don't follow religion. It's mainly the practitioners that get to me. There's this whole "I'm more knowledgeable and better than you" attitude stemming here and there in almost every sect I face. I guess it's safe to say I'd rather practice religion peacefully and alone, but even the teachings show contrasting suggestions and that puts me off.
In the end, yeah, the moral construct is there for me...but that's about it. I don't want to follow the other stuff that it also presents. I actually just want to live a less brain-draining life, which is already hard enough as it is. All this spiritual stuff is way too complex to me. I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? |
I am a Christian and my beliefs have helped me a lot. I have prayed for friends and family members, success in college exams, and a lot more. It really has helped me. I pray for others more than I pray more myself too sometimes. I love my beliefs
![]() How ya doing, buddy?
This signature disappears when you are not looking... :asthanos:
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First I become a confused hypocritic, then I become a cynical judgemental self-righteous cock tease.
Admitting should be the first step after becoming a Christian and hiding it. Why do I feel ashamed of being a Christian? Sigh. What's worse is that I try to listen to both ends of the spectrum and I had taken a world religions philsophy course which is very informative and covered every religion known to the public. And when I do understand, I still am stubborn in my own conflicted beliefs. Its like I'm trying to understand how it is to be black when I'm born white. I assume its impossible to grow out of your own religion when its all around you. If anything... it taught me a lot about people and their nature at least their true nature in general and how religion can be a culture clash for some. It still doesn't help me though. But I certainly don't recall any religion devoutees saying it is easy to be a devout follower. What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? |
I don't believe in any of it. Its got too much contradictions and questions to be enough for me to say that God, or a god, exists.
As a result, all Ican do is be the best that I can be for my family, friends, etc., FELIPE NO |
I am a Christian. I am not religious. In other words, I don't just believe in God, but I go to church, help out at church, do outreach for youth, etc. There is a big difference in faith, and being religous however... true faith is when you "want" to believe in God or whatever you may call him.. it's when you have a passion for what you stand up for and actually stem a relationship with God.
Being religious is deceiving... anyone can be religious - all they do is go to church once a week, be really nice to people, and think it's all fine.... just being religious is the biggest problem in today's society because it is the "easy" way out.. anyone can do it... but its not Biblical. Religion is believed to come from many differen origins. A Marxist idea of religion is that it is based on controlling economy - such that it is controlled by the wealthy and advertised amongst the poor.. etc (read about Marx beliefs on Religion) Some believe it is stemmed from human fears - such is so that we "create" religion to cope with our insecurities and fears of the world we live in... As for my personal belief - I don't believe in Christianity is one of these "religions" being from people (manmade) etc... I believe that it is theological truth that we are both exposed to and hidden from (thus explaining why we don't have "all" the answers) I believe that God hides some of theology from us so that there is that aspect of "believing" or "faithfulness" that must be involved... We have to believe - God doesn't want "religious" Christians.. Additional Spam: Why does God exist? I use both the theories of "Evolution" and Christianity to explain why there is a God. Think about this- your evolution-believing friend tells you that everything in this world (humanity, resources, animals, "creation" as its called) all stems from the "Big Bang" - Yes, and this is usually where the Christian will counter-act with a few Bible verses, etc.. But how about stopping there instead and asking the evolutionist a simple question - "Why? Where did this single ball of harnessed energy containing all the contents of the "Big Bang" come from?.. Looking at physics - we understand that our world consists of 4 dimensions: longitude, latitude, altitude, and time. Time is the important factor here as it opens the doors for motion, speed, movement, etc. According to the Big Bang theory - time is considered one of the things harnessed within this single force at the beginning of our universe. Now think about this - If "Time" is within this thing called a singularity, then what is the catalyst, or "cause" of the actual "Big Bang"? If time is non-existent around this "singularity" then there can be no movement, impulse, or action possible to start the infinite chain of events in which we call our universe!... There has to be a "supernatural" power - God must be included in the equation in order for evolution to work.. Another perspective - the idea that our universe is based on random actions - is pretty much retarded to believe in. According to mathematician Fred Hoyle, the probability of the formation and evolution of one cell would be about 10 ^20 . (1/1000000000000000000000th i think thats right) basically, we would need all the 2000 enzymes needed for life just randomly present on this earth at that exact spot of the one cell in order for that cell to evolve successfully. It is just as comparible as placing a bunch of screws, a wrist band, a battery, a piece of glass, a minute hand, an hour hand, and a seconds hand, all into a wooden box, shaking it up, and getting a working watch in the outcome.. Stuff like that "is" technically possible - but I'm just sorry-I really can't believe it happened on its own... there must be a Creator!! What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Last edited by randy_ui; Mar 15, 2007 at 11:01 PM.
Reason: This member got a little too post happy.
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Larry Oji, Super Moderator, Judge, "Dirge for the Follin" Project Director, VG Frequency Creator |
I am personally an atheist. I was once a muslim, but there are too many inconsistencies for me to be able to reconcile myself with the belief. I must be able to reason him to at least a certain extent in my thoughts. Once can say that God is beyond human reason, but reason in the only tool with which I can analyze and understand the world. If God is beyond reason, then he is incomprehensible, and I cannot pledge myself to something I cannot understand. If God is within reason, that would place limits on his infinite nature, and thus remove from his the status of God.
That being said, I believe that religion is something that mankind devised to give themselves a measure of control over what was previously indomitable (i.e weather, natural disasters, the future.) People use it as a crutch to give them hope, and a scapegoat when they fail. It also provides a ground to which people can unite or be divided. Religion is an extremely important part of man's psyche, because it is the last idea that keeps man from being powerless. The stereotype of an atheist is someone who is "anti-religion", one who seems to hate religion and deems it the reason for many of the world's evils. I disagree. While it is true that religion is the banner flied as armies plunge into war, I believe that religion is merely used because of its unifying power. It is not the religion that is inherently flawed, but the fact that people can interpret religion to their own ends. The fault lies with the person. It is within the nature of any piece of information to be interpreted, so to say that religion is the cause would be as valid as saying the spread of intellectual enlightentment is the cause for all wars. I don't think that religion is a cause of evil, I actually believe the opposite. Man needs religion. Although it is probable that without religion another thing may rise, but hope is one of the strongest emotions of man. It is the faith that they will be able to control their destiny. Thus, some form of religion will always exist, whether it be faith in God, or faith in something else. It's not that I hate religion, I just haven't found a religion that I believe in (aside from atheism). However, I still identify myself as an atheist because I simply don't believe in the tenets of a deity or supernatural power that drives most religions. Jam it back in, in the dark. |