The Middle East spirals out of control!

Originally Posted by han89

A question, if there were rockets in the building, shoudln't it do a BIG HELL OF A GREAT BLAST????? it only crumbled like any other buliding and no rockets were found when taking out the 37 dead children and 25 other males and females and when the investigations were carried. So your video is as good as any cinematic done video!!!

Mistakes happen and people die. Accept that, that is part of life and move on. You want to sit and pin Isreal as a bad guy, fine go ahead. You want to support the actions that Hezbollah is taking against Isreal go ahead. If you think it's ok for Hezbollah to blindly shoot rockets into Isreal to murder innocent civilians and destroy houses and businesses fine. You can't condem Isreal and not condem YOUR organization for doing the same exact thing.

Originally Posted by han89

And the soldiers WERE in Lebanon. Just because the CNN says so and everyone else says otherwise, it doesn't mean the CNN is the rightful news. THey were in our territories and we had every right to do what we did. And about the shelling from day one, that's wrong info. and a workable solution is not give israel what they want either!!! Dream on about that too!

Are you a member of Hezbollah then? I only make the assumption right now because you said that "They were in our territories and we had every right to do what we did" God knows that the Lebenese Government had nothing to do with the kidknapping of the Isreali soldiers so that kind of leads me to believe that you are either a member or a supporter of a Terrorist organization. I mean please correct me if I'm incorrect in my statement. I guess I could use the word sympothizer also but that just doesn't sound right for the group you're supporting / a part of.

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The Hezbollah always had soldiers captured and exchanged them for prisonners, and Israel always did. So don't tell me that the exchange was impossible because they used to do it so the war is Israel's fault, they announced it... As easy as that!!!!

I guess you've never known or met a bully in your life. Just because Hezbollah has captured soldiers and exchanged them in the past with Isreal doesn't mean that it's going to work out every time. I knew kids back in school that would get juked every day for their lunch money because the bullies in knew the kids would openly give them their money with no questions. It takes a bully a simple fuck no and a pop in the face to get the message and to leave the kid alone.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Blackfate

Mistakes happen and people die. Accept that, that is part of life and move on.

Oh yeah I'm sure you'd be totally ready to accept bombs raining down on your neighbours and just move on if it was happening in Iowa.

Originally Posted by Blackfate

I guess you've never known or met a bully in your life. Just because Hezbollah has captured soldiers and exchanged them in the past with Isreal doesn't mean that it's going to work out every time. I knew kids back in blah blah another painful anaology

Yeah because Israel is totally the victim here, being bullied by powerful, mean Arab states, stealing all their lunch money and pushing them into the dirt. But it's ok, kill a few of their children and they'll get the message.

We really should just ban analogies from PP.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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being bullied by powerful, mean Arab states

Learn2history.

Israel has been bullied many many times by those powerful mean arab states say since DAY 1 of Israel's formation?

No analogies here. Look up
Israel War of Independence
Six-Day War
Yom Kippur War

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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And the soldiers WERE in Lebanon. Just because the CNN says so and everyone else says otherwise, it doesn't mean the CNN is the rightful news. THey were in our territories and we had every right to do what we did. And about the shelling from day one, that's wrong info.

Hezbollah TV is NOT everyone else. You've supplied one source that's not affiliated with anti-Israeli and/or pro-Arab groups that says that the Israeli's were in Lebanon at the time. CNN, MSNBC, FOX, etc, all say they were in Israeli territory during the kidnapping. The one source you did supply that wasn't a Hezbollah propaganda machine was a source that nobody knows about it's reliability because nobody watches it.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

So evidently Hezbollah is going to try and hit Tel Aviv with...something. Perhaps we are going to see some new ordinance not seen yet.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I'm not sure about the location of the kidnapping, but Arabs consider the Shebaa Farms part of Lebanon, and not Israel. That might account for the issue, as it is land Israel stole in a previous war.

The escalation of this war has been absolutely perposterous however. Israel has been brutally slaughtering innocents for an action, while serious, amounts to very little and could be resolved through diplomacy. Israel's behavior is more of that of a terrorist orginization than a soverign state.

As for hitting Tel Aviv, they might have some ordinance capable of that. New weapons keep emerging every once in a while.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Terrorism is a deliberate action designed solely to harm civillian targets.

Israel has only killed civillians because Hezbollah hides among civillians, making them collateral damage.

You can't negotiate with an organization who wants your country destroyed - completely. You either kill them or they kill you. It's that simple.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Israel has only killed civillians because Hezbollah hides among civillians, making them collateral damage.

Actually, if they know that they hide among civilians, it's not collateral damage, but intended damage. Don't make it sound like they don't have a choice, here.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

No, because Isreal did not intend to kill civillians. They only struck known Hezbollah targets - which just so happened to be surrounded by civillians. Isreal did not intentionally target civillians. The civillians killed, thus, are still collateral damage.

The only alternative they have is to not strike back against Hezbollah who is lobbing rocket artillery onto their cities, which is unacceptable by anyone else's tandards.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Terrorism is a deliberate action designed solely to harm civillian targets.

Israel has only killed civillians because Hezbollah hides among civillians, making them collateral damage.

And yet a majority of Israel's targets are civilian targets. Four bridges today, multiple airports, as well as other infastructure areas, and civilian houses have been hit. Hezbollah having southern Beirut as a stronghold does not justify blasting the entire city under the pretense of collateral damage.

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You can't negotiate with an organization who wants your country destroyed - completely. You either kill them or they kill you. It's that simple.

Israel has negotiated with Hezbollah in dealing with prisoners before. Both groups have prisoners of each other and would like them back.


You're simplifying the situation a lot more than it actually is. Also, the classification of Hezbollah as a terrorist orginization isn't even complete, while the US, Canada, and Israel say so, the EU thinks differently.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Terrorism is a deliberate action designed solely to harm civillian targets.

Israel has only killed civillians because Hezbollah hides among civillians, making them collateral damage.

so, using your own definition of terrorism, as well as the UN building incident (to name just one) where they knew only innocent civilians would be killed, that makes the israeli army a terrorist organisation.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

If Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization, maybe you could tell us just what miltary targets they are attempting to hit with these rockets and missiles. Indiscriminately launching rockets at populated cities and towns, seems like a terrorist action to me. Hezbollah doesn't even attempt to claim the civilians they murder as collateral damage, since killing civilians is their goal, as opposed to those killed by the Israeli air strikes.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Adamgian1

Israel has been brutally slaughtering innocents

No they haven't.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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so, using your own definition of terrorism, as well as the UN building incident (to name just one) where they knew only innocent civilians would be killed, that makes the israeli army a terrorist organisation.

I'm going to have to ask you to prove that there was even a single instance where Isreal deliberately attacked a target to kill civillians.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

I'm going to have to ask you to prove that there was even a single instance where Isreal deliberately attacked a target to kill civillians.

U.N.

I think, Israel with its high-tech gadgetry and military assets can make difference between U.N labeled vehicles and others.

Lebonan is 'test bed' for Israel,following the policy of 'shoot first ask questions later'.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Sexninja

U.N.

I think, Israel with its high-tech gadgetry and military assets can make difference between U.N labeled vehicles and others.

No matter the sophisticated weaponry of today, accidents always happen. Surely the United States, with it's high-tech weapons and military assets, could avoid 'friendly fire', right? No military force is perfect. In war, accidents will forever be inevitable.

But you still haven't answered Night Phoenix's question. He specifically asked: "I'm going to have to ask you to prove that there was even a single instance where Isreal deliberately attacked a target to kill civillians." - It would be like me claiming: "Sexninja absolutely hates dogs! In fact, I saw him beating one the other day!"

You or other members would ask for proof. If I responded by only saying how I found a hurt dog on the street the other day or located pictures showing one injured, it wouldn't prove that you were responsible. No, you'll have to prove Israel is purposely attacking civilians. I recommend posting a reliable news article.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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Israel has negotiated with Hezbollah in dealing with prisoners before. Both groups have prisoners of each other and would like them back.

<sigh> I can't believe people are STILL using this as a pathetic excuse to justify Hezzbolah's actions. Once a bitch, always a bitch eh? Maybe Israel is tired of being pushed around?

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Israel has been brutally slaughtering innocents for an action, while serious, amounts to very little and could be resolved through diplomacy. Israel's behavior is more of that of a terrorist orginization than a soverign state.

That and other similiar asserations are soo much bullshit. Answer one question:

1.) Is Israel using its full military might on Lebanon?

maybe some other side issues to consider is why isn't Israel using it's nuclear weapons if its intent was to cause maximum civillian casulties? Why is Israel bothering to tell people to evacuate ahead of time? Why is Israel doing house to house fighting when it could just level the entire city?

I mean damn... if a military general was aiming for maximum civillian casulties they sure SUCK AT IT.

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Hezbollah having southern Beirut as a stronghold does not justify blasting the entire city under the pretense of collateral damage.

So Hezzbollah as an organization cares so much about their own people that they will ONLY operate in the Southern Lebanon theater and promise not to run north?

Whether Hezbollah is a terrorist organization or not is open and shut case.

Whether the Lebanese citizens who *VOTED* Hezzbolah into power and refusing to disarm them should pay for Hezzbolah's crimes is a little trickier.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

I'm going to have to ask you to prove that there was even a single instance where Isreal deliberately attacked a target to kill civillians.

sorry pal, but when the vast majority of the lebanese death toll belongs to civilians the onus is on YOU to prove that they AREN'T deliberately targeting civilians.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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<sigh> I can't believe people are STILL using this as a pathetic excuse to justify Hezzbolah's actions. Once a bitch, always a bitch eh? Maybe Israel is tired of being pushed around?

It tends to be the case that Israel does a lot of the pushing. Palestine jumps to mind pretty quickly.

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That and other similiar asserations are soo much bullshit. Answer one question:

1.) Is Israel using its full military might on Lebanon?

maybe some other side issues to consider is why isn't Israel using it's nuclear weapons if its intent was to cause maximum civillian casulties? Why is Israel bothering to tell people to evacuate ahead of time? Why is Israel doing house to house fighting when it could just level the entire city?

I mean damn... if a military general was aiming for maximum civillian casulties they sure SUCK AT IT.

And yet they've still managed to kill roughly 700 civilians, and considering the amount of ordinance used for an army roughly 3000 strong, its excessive.

Also, they've done a pretty good job of leveling cities anyways. Beirut, Tyre, and a few other places have taken billions of dollars worth of damage.

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So Hezzbollah as an organization cares so much about their own people that they will ONLY operate in the Southern Lebanon theater and promise not to run north?

Until Israel started destroying the country, they wouldn't have been able to. The attitude was shifting against Hezbollah, but of course, thats not the case anymore.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Adamgian

Until Israel started destroying the country, they wouldn't have been able to. The attitude was shifting against Hezbollah, but of course, thats not the case anymore.

Which is exactly the most important point of this all.

Let's face it: The only one thing that is already certain about the war is that nothing good will come of it. Whatever happens - Hezbollah will emerge strengthened. If there had been hopes in the past that Lebanon would slowly become a normal country, where Hezbollah would be deprived of a pretext for maintaining a military force of its own, they were now provided with the perfect justification: Israel is destroying Lebanon, only Hezbollah is fighting to defend the country. Nobody else is.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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Israel has only killed civillians because Hezbollah hides among civillians, making them collateral damage.

How quick we are to devalue life. Of course Israel aren’t intending to kill civilians –and who would be stupid enough to admit that? This fact, however, doesn’t make the results of their actions any less abhorrent or somehow immune from criticism. Does a ‘kill or be killed’ argument really apply given the disproportionate military strength in Israel’s favour? Ok, there are rocket attacks in Haifa in the north, but based on the death and injury tolls, it is relatively little compared to sophisticated carnage created by the Israeli precision strikes. It’s like going after a fly with a hammer, but calling for some restraint at this point is too little too late.

Israel have been keen to differentiate between Hezbollah targets and the ‘normal’ Lebanese, however ask yourself what kind of impact do you think these activities will have on the moderate Lebanese government and the future of the region? You have to remember that past conflicts with Lebanon have been resolved with dialogue and diplomacy; ie a government open to discussion. There’s been some talk that if the invasion was able to convince normal Lebanese to reject Hezbollah (Adamigan’s mentioned the shift already), but if the long term effect ends up with them being replaced by radicals… well, it’s not as if the region isn’t destabilised enough already.

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1.) Is Israel using its full military might on Lebanon?

maybe some other side issues to consider is why isn't Israel using it's nuclear weapons if its intent was to cause maximum civillian casulties? Why is Israel bothering to tell people to evacuate ahead of time? Why is Israel doing house to house fighting when it could just level the entire city?

I mean damn... if a military general was aiming for maximum civillian casulties they sure SUCK AT IT.

Maybe Israel do suck at military strategy. This attempt to crush Hezbollah over a couple of soldiers has gone on for three weeks and killed more civilians than terrorists, so wouldn’t you say that this quick show of strength has backfired? On the day Israeli leader Olmert announced that they’ve crushed Hezbollah, the rockets still continue to fall. Now there’s some talk of holding the territory or leaving it to an International (UN) peacekeeping force -good luck on getting volunteers for that. Until that happens, Israel will be holding onto territory while all the while losing casualties and international goodwill (not that they’ve ever cared for that).

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Whether Hezbollah is a terrorist organization or not is open and shut case.

I think it’s a little deeper than that. Simplifying things is often a good idea, but it lends itself to making you look like a shallow fool. Ask yourself what kind of ‘terrorists’ are you thinking of? If you’ve really read your history, you’d know that the origin of Hezbollah was entwined in a regional conflict in repelling Israel from Lebanon, and thus lends itself to much popular support from the Lebanese. Freedom fighters could also be an apt tag, although this on its own does not justify their actions. As such, any implied comparisons to ‘destroy the non-islamic world’ global terrorists (a la Al-Qaeda) are null.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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Does a ‘kill or be killed’ argument really apply given the disproportionate military strength in Israel’s favour?

In the interests of simplicity, yes.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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<sigh> I can't believe people are STILL using this as a pathetic excuse to justify Hezzbolah's actions. Once a bitch, always a bitch eh? Maybe Israel is tired of being pushed around?

Once a bitch, eh? The same goes for Israel when it comes to killing civilians.

People seem to be twisting this issue to no end. Just because myself and others are calling Israel terrorists, that doesn't mean we aren't calling Hezbollah terrorists, either. Both sides are committing acts of terrorism. Make no mistake about that. But Israel is taking this way farther than Hezbollah could ever hope to.

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1.) Is Israel using its full military might on Lebanon?

Israel's full military might has nothing to do with this. The same question could be asked of the United States Army in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the answer would be no. Of course they aren't. But no matter what their restraint is, hundreds of people are still dying. That's why it's not relevant to this issue.

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maybe some other side issues to consider is why isn't Israel using it's nuclear weapons if its intent was to cause maximum civillian casulties? Why is Israel bothering to tell people to evacuate ahead of time? Why is Israel doing house to house fighting when it could just level the entire city?

That's complete lunacy. Do you honestly think Israel would use a nuclear bomb to get rid of Hezbollah? If Israel was that stupid, we wouldn't be here to tell the tale.

And Israel is not going to just wipe everybody out because that's not how modern warfare is fought. What they're doing instead is bombing civilian infrastructures, transport routes, and other strategic civilian targets in an attempt to starve the country instead.

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I mean damn... if a military general was aiming for maximum civillian casulties they sure SUCK AT IT.

No, they don't. Because if this war continues, more people will die from a lack of food, water, and medicine than the IDF could ever hope to kill.

How ya doing, buddy?

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It tends to be the case that Israel does a lot of the pushing. Palestine jumps to mind pretty quickly.

So Israel's latest incursion into Gaza was completely unprovoked? Remember that there is relative peace in the area UNTIL some suicide bomber decides to blow uo a cafe or schoolbus.

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And yet they've still managed to kill roughly 700 civilians, and considering the amount of ordinance used for an army roughly 3000 strong, its excessive.

Also, they've done a pretty good job of leveling cities anyways. Beirut, Tyre, and a few other places have taken billions of dollars worth of damage.

If you added up the potential killing power of all the ordnance dropped thus far, wouldn't the numbers killed be in the hundreds of thousands if Israel was REALLY trying to kill civillians? If Hezzbolah would fight Israel toe to toe instead of hidng among innocent Lebanese the fight would be over quicker and less innocents would have to die.

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Which is exactly the most important point of this all.

Let's face it: The only one thing that is already certain about the war is that nothing good will come of it. Whatever happens - Hezbollah will emerge strengthened. If there had been hopes in the past that Lebanon would slowly become a normal country, where Hezbollah would be deprived of a pretext for maintaining a military force of its own, they were now provided with the perfect justification: Israel is destroying Lebanon, only Hezbollah is fighting to defend the country. Nobody else is.

You forget that "not being a bitch" is worth fighting for - worth dying for, worth killing for. Israel MUST do what a soverign nation must do when terrorized.

You are willfully ignorant if you think that Hezzbolah was going to disarm anytime soon.

Who here REALLY thinks that Hezzbolah is "defending" Lebanon. Hezzbolah isn't doing shit. THey have:

-Killed approximately 100 IDF soldiers and Israel civillians
-Kidnapped two IDF soldiers

in exchange for

-700? dead Lebanese civillians
-Billions in damage

(Adamgian numbers).

You think if Hezzbolah really gave a damn about their country they would stop the fighting. My argument of not being a bitch doesn't apply to Hezzbolah. The reason this is the case is in a fight, Hezzbolah will lose and therefor should not be starting a fight to begin with.

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Ok, there are rocket attacks in Haifa in the north, but based on the death and injury tolls, it is relatively little compared to sophisticated carnage created by the Israeli precision strikes.

How quick are we to devalue Israeli life? Maybe Israel cares enough about it's citizens to respond to any and all aggression. If me and you were at war (and if it's one that you started) I really don't care how many of you I kill to save 1 of my lives - ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU STARTED IT.

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Ok, there are rocket attacks in Haifa in the north, but based on the death and injury tolls, it is relatively little compared to sophisticated carnage created by the Israeli precision strikes.

Maybe the damage done due to Israeli precision weapons and WARNING people to leave has resulted in relatively little death and damage tolls compared to what could be happening?

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You have to remember that past conflicts with Lebanon have been resolved with dialogue and diplomacy; ie a government open to discussion.

UN Conversation to Lebanon: Hi there Lebanon, we were wondering if Hezzbolah could kindly disarm it's military wing?

Lebanese government: Hezzbolah IS the government biatch! HAHA. Elected and everything!

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Maybe Israel do suck at military strategy. This attempt to crush Hezbollah over a couple of soldiers has gone on for three weeks and killed more civilians than terrorists, so wouldn’t you say that this quick show of strength has backfired?

You tell me what you would have done if your country was attacked the way it was hmmmmmm?

Also, who expects Israel or ANYONE in their situation to backdown in the current situation.

Scenario 1 - Israel withdraws from Lebanon = Hezzbolah victory
Scenario 2 - Israel agrees to a ceasefire without the return of soldiers = Hezzbolah victory.

Has no one ever kicked ass or gotten their ass kicked in the playgrounds? Same shit here, there are protocols that must be followed.

--
Look. The best solution moving forward is the Lebanese deciding that they have had enough of the Hezzbolah dogs shitting in their neighbors yard and dealing with it. Will it be costly? Yes? No fence sitting on this one. What will be more costly

1.) Continue to fight with Israel until the end of time?

2.) Friggin expel Hezzbolah.

Double Post:

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People seem to be twisting this issue to no end. Just because myself and others are calling Israel terrorists, that doesn't mean we aren't calling Hezbollah terrorists, either. Both sides are committing acts of terrorism. Make no mistake about that. But Israel is taking this way farther than Hezbollah could ever hope to.

The ball was always in Hezzbolah's court. They could of not started this shit to begin with for one. Two, they could have returned the soldiers anytime between then and NOW and Israel would have much less of a leg to stand on.

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Israel's full military might has nothing to do with this. The same question could be asked of the United States Army in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the answer would be no. Of course they aren't. But no matter what their restraint is, hundreds of people are still dying. That's why it's not relevant to this issue.

My question was in response to a statement that Israel was INTENTIONALLY killing civilians. They are not. If they were, they would be using their full military might wouldn't they?

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That's complete lunacy. Do you honestly think Israel would use a nuclear bomb to get rid of Hezbollah? If Israel was that stupid, we wouldn't be here to tell the tale.

Hezzbolah would no doubt used a nuclear weapon on Israel - without disregard that Lebanon would probably be hit by 20 afterwards.

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And Israel is not going to just wipe everybody out because that's not how modern warfare is fought. What they're doing instead is bombing civilian infrastructures, transport routes, and other strategic civilian targets in an attempt to starve the country instead.

...

No, they don't. Because if this war continues, more people will die from a lack of food, water, and medicine than the IDF could ever hope to kill.

You are right. You have seen the tactical situation. Now what will you do assuming Israel does not back down?

Defang Hezzbolah or let your people starve?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

So Israel's latest incursion into Gaza was completely unprovoked? Remember that there is relative peace in the area UNTIL some suicide bomber decides to blow uo a cafe or schoolbus.

This very sentence shows how lacking your knowledge of the entire conflict in the middle east is.

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You think if Hezzbolah really gave a damn about their country they would stop the fighting. My argument of not being a bitch doesn't apply to Hezzbolah. The reason this is the case is in a fight, Hezzbolah will lose and therefor should not be starting a fight to begin with.

Like an organisation such as the Hezbollah can "lose" anything at all.

Would you just sit idly by while a superior army invades your country? If Israel's actions to "defend" themselves against terrorists by invading another sovereign country is legit, then the Hezbollah's fight against this invader is just as legit and will draw a lot of support from the people because Hezbollah are the only ones standing up to fight, not because they are a terrorist organization.

Tony, what I'm trying to say is that you seem to lack the ability to put yourself in the place of the Lebanese people.

Jam it back in, in the dark.