The Middle East spirals out of control!

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So that's why those three civilian refugee convoys were attacked effectively at once; Hezbollah was using them to smuggle terrorists and weapons out of southern Lebanon, using actual refugees as human shields?

You mean those refugee convoys that were using the main road to Tyre which which has been under constant bombardment by Israel? That's called walking under the bomb. The roads they were walking on were the targets of the attacks, not the refugees.

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I'm further impressed by this statement. Taken in conjunction with the above comments about Lebanese civilians being used as human shields, it effectively serves to make everything in Lebanon a legitimate target, and let Israel say it isn't targeting civilians in the process.

No they aren't directly attacking civilians. They aren't bombing these places with the intent of killing Lebanese civilians. Intent is everything here and it's time people start considering this fact rather than simply looking at the situation from such a black and white perspective.

I'm sick of hearing complaints but no solutions. These people ARE hiding weapons in civilian areas. These people ARE using civilians as human shields. These people have less regard for their own countrymen's lives than then the enemy does. Think about that for a moment.

Now, tell me what should Israel do? How can Israel possibly fight again such a tactic without taking civilian lives? I'll tell you what I think, they can't because it is an impossible situation. This outcry to protect innocent life won't solve the situation and it NEVER will. Israel is pursing the only workable option to them now. It's tragic that civilians are going to die because of the actions but it does not make Israel wrong or immoral because you cannot ignore the intentions of Israel. Their intentions are that of protection and survival, not genocide and imperialism.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Certa

You mean those refugee convoys that were using the main road to Tyre which which has been under constant bombardment by Israel? That's called walking under the bomb. The roads they were walking on were the targets of the attacks, not the refugees.

And Israel decided to attack them while they were on them? Some people just have the worst sense of timing in the world. And are just dumb; I mean, using a road to drive out of a combat zone? Stupid civilians, they should have gone through the back country. It's all their fault they got killed.

Originally Posted by Cetra

These people have less regard for their own countrymen's lives than then the enemy does. Think about that for a moment.

Looking at it, it would appear that, at best, Israel and Hezbollah have the same regard for the lives of Lebanese civilians; they simply don't care if they get in the way. Hezbollah demonstrates this by hiding among among Lebanese civilians; Israel by attacking those civilians without remorse to kill Hezbollah.

On a different front, should this same disregard for civilian casualties be applied to Iraq? It certainly makes things easier.

Originally Posted by Cetra

It's tragic that civilians are going to die because of the actions but it does not make Israel wrong or immoral because you cannot ignore the intentions of Israel.

If you'll read what I've said, I haven't been ignoring the intentions of Israel. Israel's intentions have been a very important part of what I've been saying. And Israel's intentions appear inconsistent with their actions.

Originally Posted by Cetra

Their intentions are that of protection and survival, not genocide and imperialism.

Of course they are. And if that safety means destroying Lebanon, so be it.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

And Israel decided to attack them while they were on them? Some people just have the worst sense of timing in the world. And are just dumb; I mean, using a road to drive out of a combat zone? Stupid civilians, they should have gone through the back country. It's all their fault they got killed.

It's hard to say honestly. But lets look at the situation. Plenty of refugees are safely crossing the boarder though side roads. We aren't hearing anything about refugees out in the middle of nowhere being bombed and killed. This road that they were using was a constant target of both shelling and bombing by Israel. And yeah it actually is the fault of the civilians. Walking into the path of a tornado is nobodies fault but your own.

And it's not just a road, but a MAIN ROAD that has been under attack and a one of the many roads Israel has been warning people not to use. So was the target the main road or the civilians? Looking at the situation I would guess the target was the road.

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Looking at it, it would appear that, at best, Israel and Hezbollah have the same regard for the lives of Lebanese civilians; they simply don't care if they get in the way. Hezbollah demonstrates this by hiding among among Lebanese civilians; Israel by attacking those civilians without remorse to kill Hezbollah.

Israel isn't putting these people in a position of harm, Hezbollah is. Hezbollah is forcing Israels hand in this situation. Shooting the hostage the gun wielding manic is hiding behind while firing at you is not considered murder.

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On a different front, should this same disregard for civilian casualties be applied to Iraq? It certainly makes things easier.

Well during the actual start of the operation things were actually very similar to the current situation in Lebanon. We hit many civilian targets of military value and a lot of civilians lost their lives. I don't know where else you think those casualty numbers in Iraq came from. This is the tragic reality that needs to be faced when dealing with an enemy that is willing to hide in the general population hoping it offers them a level of protection.

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If you'll read what I've said, I haven't been ignoring the intentions of Israel. Israel's intentions have been a very important part of what I've been saying. And Israel's intentions appear inconsistent with their actions.

Can't say I can agree that their actions don't match their intentions. As I stated above, targets have been of military value including the refugees that were killed on a main road. No doubt some missiles have missed their intended targets but even the most precise weapon systems fail once and a while but these don't betray the intentions expressed by Israel.

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Of course they are. And if that safety means destroying Lebanon, so be it.

Countries can be rebuilt. We did it with most of Europe, Japan and are in the process of doing it in Iraq. I already know the rebuttal coming for this one, so before you give it fulfill the 'simple' request that was contently ignored before. What else can Israel do to defeat an enemy that is highly integrated in civilian population of Lebanon? I'm not trying to say the loss of life is tragic or the destruction of the infrastructure in Lebanon is disturbing, but it is time to drop this idealistic bullshit or nothing will ever change. Israels options are limited and I think they are following the best solution available to them.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Certa

Israel isn't putting these people in a position of harm, Hezbollah is. Hezbollah is forcing Israels hand in this situation. Shooting the hostage the gun wielding manic is hiding behind while firing at you is not considered murder.

I can't help but notice that this reply doesn't address or refute the charge that I made at all. I said that Hezbollah didn't care about the lives of Lebanese civilians by hiding among them, and that Israel similarly didn't care about the lives of Lebanese civilians by shooting those same civilians to get at Hezbollah.

You essentially confirmed it for me.

Originally Posted by Certa

And yeah it actually is the fault of the civilians

Of course it was. Israel can do no wrong, afterall.

Originally Posted by Certa

As I stated above, targets have been of military value including the refugees that were killed on a main road.

Roads, dairy and tissue paper factories, UN posts...

Again, you've turned to supporting assertions I've made, such as that according to the standards you and ofirov are using, everything in Lebanon is a legitimate target for attack.

Originally Posted by Certa

I'm not trying to say the loss of life is tragic or the destruction of the infrastructure in Lebanon is disturbing

Are you instead trying to say that the loss of life is not tragic, and that the destruction of the infratructure is not disturbing?

Originally Posted by Certa

What else can Israel do to defeat an enemy that is highly integrated in civilian population of Lebanon?

Which requires more questioning of Israel's intent here. It, and you, say that its purpose is to destroy Hezbollah; it's actions suggest it's intent is to destroy Lebanon. Which same you justify, saying that Hezbollah has integrated itself so highly in Lebanon's civilian population. Again, this supports the position that the standards you use make everything in Lebanon legitimate targets for Israeli attack.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Okay then…

Lord Styphon, what would you have done if you were in our place? How would you ensure the safety of your country's citizens? What’s your solution?

I'm really interested in knowing what would you have done if you were the decision maker in Israel.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

UNTIL NOW, the stats are the following: among civilian deaths so far, and not soldiers on both sides:

600 dead civilian in lebanon
19 dead civilian in israel

now consider me stupid but if that isn't targeting civilians in lebanon, then this is not a war...THIS IS A BLOODY MASSACRE!!!!

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by han89

UNTIL NOW, the stats are the following: among civilian deaths so far, and not soldiers on both sides:

600 dead civilian in lebanon
19 dead civilian in israel

now consider me stupid but if that isn't targeting civilians in lebanon, then this is not a war...THIS IS A BLOODY MASSACRE!!!!

How many conflicts have their been in the world where innocent people have been killed. It's a war, and the term is called collateral damage.

Most amazing jew boots

ofirov just wanted to say im all for israel here... Remember that there's almost no convincing the vastly liberal majority of gff'ers that muslim extremists pose a threat to our way of life. Extremist muslims can't be convinced diplomatically, and one of these days it's going to come down to us or them. I hope you dissarm hesbola enough to equal what it should have been like after the UN ordered it decades ago. (LOL the UN)

FELIPE NO

Has it occured to you that muslims in the Middle East may well become militant because organised foreign interests pose a threat to their way of life?

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I hope you dissarm hesbola enough to equal what it should have been like after the UN ordered it decades ago. (LOL the UN)

Is this some sort of Fox Newsish throwaway troll?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Blackfate

How many conflicts have their been in the world where innocent people have been killed. It's a war, and the term is called collateral damage.

when muslims do the above they are called terrorists, but when it's the US or israel it's collateral damage.

How ya doing, buddy?

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How many conflicts have their been in the world where innocent people have been killed. It's a war, and the term is called collateral damage.

No. When civilians die, those are war crimes. Especially when they are targeted in the first place. Make no mistake, this is a massacre.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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How would you ensure the safety of your country's citizens? What’s your solution?

No one's responded to this question yet.

There's a whole lot of condemming Israel but no one has presented a REAL and workable solution.

Remember that the ball is IN Hezbollah's and Lebanon's camp.

Hezbollah: We've had enough of Lebanese citizens dying. We will return the two soldiers and stop firing into Israel.

Lebanon: We've had enough of Lebanese citizens dying. Fuck Hezbollah. We have no choice but to shut them down. If necessary, we will ask for outside help in order to make it happen.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

No one's responded to this question yet.

There's a whole lot of condemming Israel but no one has presented a REAL and workable solution.

The UN has issued an order of cease of fire, an IMMEDIATE one, but the US f888ked it up and put a vito on it then came back afterwards and ordered a cease of fire. SO why put a vito in the first place? This shows you that the US doesn't care at all about Lebanon.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

Remember that the ball is IN Hezbollah's and Lebanon's camp.

Hezbollah: We've had enough of Lebanese citizens dying. We will return the two soldiers and stop firing into Israel.

It's not there fault the war had clached. They gave israel 3 days of no firing back and offered an exchange for the lebanese who are old prisonners of war in Israel. But no, it seems that destroying all the bridges in lebanon seems to be the solution to get the soldiers back. And so i give you a proof that they don't give a shit about their soldiers, the 2 soldiers issue was not brought up in the solution gondaliza rice brought to lebanon.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

Lebanon: We've had enough of Lebanese citizens dying. Fuck Hezbollah. We have no choice but to shut them down. If necessary, we will ask for outside help in order to make it happen.

So you are issueing another lebanese civil war right? Because last time someone asked something similar, we were down into a 15 years civil war.

And let me break it to you: Hezbollah is not only a military organisation. They have ministers in the goverment, they have a big part of the lebanese parlement and have 1/4th of the lebanese people with them which is 1 million lebanese citizen with them. So how easy is your solution?

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Onyx

No. When civilians die, those are war crimes. Especially when they are targeted in the first place. Make no mistake, this is a massacre.

When you tell people: you have until 8 pm to leave your cities, and then when they get in their cars and are ready to leave, you bomb their cars. That's collatoral damage right?

When you throw bombs and tear down homes under childrens heads and the paramedics have to search for the remains of the corpses all over the place that's collatoral damage right?

When they throw bombs that are FORBIDDEN internationally and that are making people die in the most horrifying ways and have corpses that are in a shape like never seen before that is collatoral damage right?

Like Onyx said, they ARE war crimes and they ARE massacres, and they ARE going to be suied for that once this war is done!!!

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Quote:

The UN has issued an order of cease of fire, an IMMEDIATE one, but the US f888ked it up and put a vito on it then came back afterwards and ordered a cease of fire. SO why put a vito in the first place? This shows you that the US doesn't care at all about Lebanon.

So if you suckerpunch me, I get up and start kicking your ass, is it really fair for me to not finish the fight?

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t's not there fault the war had clached. They gave israel 3 days of no firing back and offered an exchange for the lebanese who are old prisonners of war in Israel. But no, it seems that destroying all the bridges in lebanon seems to be the solution to get the soldiers back. And so i give you a proof that they don't give a shit about their soldiers, the 2 soldiers issue was not brought up in the solution gondaliza rice brought to lebanon.

What the hell? When was the last time Israel and Hezbollah were in direct conflict? 15, 20 years? You sucker punch Israel and then have the gall to ask for a prisoner exchange? Why not SIMPLY DO THE TWO FOLLOWING EASY STEPS?

1.) Return the two captured soldiers.
2.) Cease attacks on Israeel.

I mean, how hard is it to follow two incredibly easy ideas. Here's another one to consider. Don't attack Israel to begin with.

What Hezzbolah did was a declaration of war. Destroying the bridges is to ensure that those soldiers REMAIN in Lebanon.

I don't really care for what Condeleeza Rice is saying or not saying, it's not the US's war.

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So you are issueing another lebanese civil war right? Because last time someone asked something similar, we were down into a 15 years civil war.

Well, make a choice. Civil war with yourselves to purge yourself of Hezzbollah or war with Israel? So if you choose to take no self-corrective action, then how can Israel be blamed for anything but self defense?

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And let me break it to you: Hezbollah is not only a military organisation. They have ministers in the goverment, they have a big part of the lebanese parlement and have 1/4th of the lebanese people with them which is 1 million lebanese citizen with them. So how easy is your solution?

That only hurt's your case. So if Hezbollah is an elected and recognized government then does that make the people who elected Hezbollah responsible for it's actions?

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When they throw bombs that are FORBIDDEN internationally and that are making people die in the most horrifying ways and have corpses that are in a shape like never seen before that is collatoral damage right?

So if Hezzbollah had chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons they would refrain using them on Israel due to being "forbidden internationally?"

I'm sorry but no one looks pretty after being hit by a rocket or 50mm shells. I'm sure the victims of rocket attacks in Israel don't look all that great either you know.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

it's not the US's war

We're just the ones who will be paying for it.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by han89
The UN has issued an order of cease of fire, an IMMEDIATE one, but the US f888ked it up and put a vito on it then came back afterwards and ordered a cease of fire. SO why put a vito in the first place? This shows you that the US doesn't care at all about Lebanon.

The UN has also issued an order to disarm Hezbollah and deploy the Lebanese army in southern Lebanon. But obviously, only calls for Israel to back off should be implemented. I mean, it’s not like the Lebanese government has to follow UN resolutions, they can just blame Hezbollah for binding their hands. Convenient, isn't it?

I understand that you want the fire to cease on your side of the border. But the Israeli government’s first responsibility is for the safety of the Israeli citizens, not the Lebanese. If you want peace and security, you have to make sure that no one is attacking us from your side of the border. If not, then don’t blame Israel for trying to ensure its security by itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by han89
It's not there fault the war had clached.

Oh, so it’s not the Hezbollah’s fault. Well, that’s definitely interesting. Is it not the Hezbollah’s fault that on the morning of the 12th of July 2006 they’ve unprovokedly started shelling Israeli military positions and villages as a diversion attack in order to abduct 2 Israeli soldiers. Enlighten me, how is it not their fault?

Quote:

Originally Posted by han89
They gave israel 3 days of no firing back and offered an exchange for the lebanese who are old prisonners of war in Israel.

When did that happen? Hezbollah has shelled Israeli towns and cities since day one of the war. Not a single day has passed without Katyushas being fired into Israeli territory. They did ask for a cease fire, but that's just impudent of them. If they do want to give something, though, I’d start with the 2 soldiers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by han89
But no, it seems that destroying all the bridges in lebanon seems to be the solution to get the soldiers back. And so i give you a proof that they don't give a shit about their soldiers, the 2 soldiers issue was not brought up in the solution gondaliza rice brought to lebanon.

The bombardment of bridges has some very strategic value, as was stated before. As for the 2 soldiers, the no negotiations policy is not just for their sake, it’s for the sake of every Israeli soldier and citizen that might be the subject of a similar abduction in the future. If the Hezbollah will gain nothing from abducting Israelis, then it won’t be so eager to abduct Israelis in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by han89
So you are issueing another lebanese civil war right? Because last time someone asked something similar, we were down into a 15 years civil war.

It’s your choice. But if you do nothing, don’t act all surprised when someone else decides to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by han89
And let me break it to you: Hezbollah is not only a military organisation. They have ministers in the goverment, they have a big part of the lebanese parlement and have 1/4th of the lebanese people with them which is 1 million lebanese citizen with them. So how easy is your solution?

Ignoring the fact that the your statement just re-affirmed my argument that the Lebanese government is very much responsible for the situation. The Lebanese government had 6 years to work a solution to the threat that Hezbollah poses to the stability of the region in whatever means they would have chosen to. They chose to do nothing, so they have only themselves to blame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by han89
When you tell people: you have until 8 pm to leave your cities, and then when they get in their cars and are ready to leave, you bomb their cars. That's collatoral damage right?

When you throw bombs and tear down homes under childrens heads and the paramedics have to search for the remains of the corpses all over the place that's collatoral damage right?

When they throw bombs that are FORBIDDEN internationally and that are making people die in the most horrifying ways and have corpses that are in a shape like never seen before that is collatoral damage right?

Israel is doing more than enough to avoid casualties on the Lebanese side. One might think that it’s the Hezbollah’s job to defend the Lebanese citizens, and not Israels’ (since they are a part of the government). Yet it seems that you’re one step short of praising the Hezbollah’s actions. As though it’s not Hezbollah’s own fault that Lebanese citizens are getting hurt. It’s Hezbollah which kills Lebanese by engaging a war against Israel, not Israel. If we wanted to kill citizens, we wouldn’t have warned them to leave in the first place. We could have just started bombarding with no warning.

Take Bint Jbeil for example. It would have been much more “cost effective” to level the entire town from the air before sending in the ground troops (and by that, saving Israeli soldiers’ lives). But IDF has decided against it, knowing that in many of the buildings in the town, Hezbollah terrorists were waiting for the Israeli forces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devo
Let's assume Israel actually destorys Hezbollah, how many new terrorist groups will spring up in the process?

It sure is easy enough to criticize. But when it comes to finding alternative solutions, silence befalls all.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by ofirov

The UN has also issued an order to disarm Hezbollah and deploy the Lebanese army in southern Lebanon. But obviously, only calls for Israel to back off should be implemented. I mean, it’s not like the Lebanese government has to follow UN resolutions, they can just blame Hezbollah for binding their hands. Convenient, isn't it?

I don't need to remind you about the order 425 that was issued 20 years ago asking israel to go out of Lebanon and until 2000, this order was not done. So don't let me start talking about who isn't doing what the UN says.

Originally Posted by ofirov

I understand that you want the fire to cease on your side of the border. But the Israeli government’s first responsibility is for the safety of the Israeli citizens, not the Lebanese. If you want peace and security, you have to make sure that no one is attacking us from your side of the border. If not, then don’t blame Israel for trying to ensure its security by itself.

No body attacked you in the first place. the abduction was only for an exchange of the prisioners on your side. that was the plan but you started bombing us. you started this, and if it wasn't because of your goverment, this wouldn't have happened. this war could have been evited by doing a simple exchange like they always did in the past.

Originally Posted by ofirov

Oh, so it’s not the Hezbollah’s fault. Well, that’s definitely interesting. Is it not the Hezbollah’s fault that on the morning of the 12th of July 2006 they’ve unprovokedly started shelling Israeli military positions and villages as a diversion attack in order to abduct 2 Israeli soldiers. Enlighten me, how is it not their fault?

When did that happen? Hezbollah has shelled Israeli towns and cities since day one of the war. Not a single day has passed without Katyushas being fired into Israeli territory. They did ask for a cease fire, but that's just impudent of them. If they do want to give something, though, I’d start with the 2 soldiers.[/QUOTE]

WRONG! Hezbollah abducted the two soldiers and didn't fire anything. It was Israel who declared the war while Hezbollah had no intention but a simple exchange. They gave israel 3 days of destroying lebanon, and after these 3 days they declared war back. So the shelling started from your side and not from ours.

Originally Posted by ofirov

The bombardment of bridges has some very strategic value, as was stated before. As for the 2 soldiers, the no negotiations policy is not just for their sake, it’s for the sake of every Israeli soldier and citizen that might be the subject of a similar abduction in the future. If the Hezbollah will gain nothing from abducting Israelis, then it won’t be so eager to abduct Israelis in the future.

Oh so destroying every single bridge in Lebanon the first day where war was declared from your side only is strategic. So tell me now, was it not strategic that this war is so well organised, and it gets me wondering, wasn't it meant to happen because as i see it, your minister said 3 monthes ago that you have set 300 targets in Lebanon and waiting for the right time to get them. And abducting the soldiers was for one reason: get our prisonners back. It was Israel who declared war, not us, so the war is your fault.

Originally Posted by ofirov

It’s your choice. But if you do nothing, don’t act all surprised when someone else decides to.

Ignoring the fact that the your statement just re-affirmed my argument that the Lebanese government is very much responsible for the situation. The Lebanese government had 6 years to work a solution to the threat that Hezbollah poses to the stability of the region in whatever means they would have chosen to. They chose to do nothing, so they have only themselves to blame.[/QUOTE]

Just so you know, the goverment has said that Hezbollah is the only thing that is able to defend lebanon from israel since the US forbids the lebanese army from having tanks, war planes, rockets...I mean our army is forbiden to be a real army while Israel has every right to use anything the US gives her. How fair is that? So don't expect Lebanon to disarm the only thing that is defending him.

Originally Posted by ofirov

Israel is doing more than enough to avoid casualties on the Lebanese side. One might think that it’s the Hezbollah’s job to defend the Lebanese citizens, and not Israels’ (since they are a part of the government). Yet it seems that you’re one step short of praising the Hezbollah’s actions. As though it’s not Hezbollah’s own fault that Lebanese citizens are getting hurt. It’s Hezbollah which kills Lebanese by engaging a war against Israel, not Israel. If we wanted to kill citizens, we wouldn’t have warned them to leave in the first place. We could have just started bombarding with no warning.

So more then enough for you is asking people to leave and then targeting them while leaving. It's targeting civilian houses where children and women are hiding and killing them all. That is avoiding casualty. If that is avoiding casualty, congratulation!!! And just so you know, you ARE targeting civilians without warning them.

Originally Posted by ofirov

Take Bint Jbeil for example. It would have been much more “cost effective” to level the entire town from the air before sending in the ground troops (and by that, saving Israeli soldiers’ lives). But IDF has decided against it, knowing that in many of the buildings in the town, Hezbollah terrorists were waiting for the Israeli forces.

The thing is that you did bomb 75% of the town and bring it down. And just so you know, since you are knowing a lot today, no Hezbollah fighter is hiding in any building, they have said that.

Originally Posted by ofirov

It sure is easy enough to criticize. But when it comes to finding alternative solutions, silence befalls all.

So stop war. Have a ceasefire. Exchange the soldiers for the prisonners. That was a choice from day one. You declared an IMMEDIATE war on us, so who isn't finding the solution?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

You seem very eager to lessen the importance of Hezbollah's military incursion into Israeli territory to kidnap Israeli soldiers by calling it "a simple exchange." Unfortunately, several Israelis were also killed in the execution of this operation by what you seem to assert is essentially the official military force of Lebanon(and as such are representatives of the nation as a whole).

You seem to be trying to cheapen the impact of this whole affair by calling their intentions a "simple exchange." This is not a child's game of dodgeball or capture-the-flag, where when your teammates are captured, you can do something special to get them out of "jail," and everyone is still friends at the end of the game.

This is life-taking violence and aggression, not just a frivolous game where you have to play by the rules or you get disqualified.

EDIT: Nehmi: Striked out for now, but could you verify that? I had never heard that. It still doesn't change my point.

EDITx2:They performed a cross-border raid. Unstriked-out.
EDITx3:More evidence

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I hate to break it to you, but Hezbollah never entered Israeli territory to kidnap the soldiers, they were in Lebanon.

Double Post:

Quote:

The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. "Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said. "The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place," it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.

Hindustan Times (Original not found anymore heh, I wonder why.)

Quote:

The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were arrested as they entered the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut.

Bahrain News Agency

Quote:

In the afternoon, the scene changed in the streets of southern Lebanon, which was the target of 32 Israeli raids that mainly targeted areas near the area where the two soldiers were captured in Aita al Chaab, close to the border with Israel.

news.monstersandcritics.com

Quote:

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory.

Asian Times

Here's a handy map.






EDIT:

Haha, oh this amuses me. The entire post I was going against is gone. ;_;

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Nehmi

Haha, oh this amuses me. The entire post I was going against is gone. ;_;

Thats okay, you can go against my edits.

Originally Posted by Nehmi

I hate to break it to you, but Hezbollah never entered Israeli territory to kidnap the soldiers, they were in Lebanon.

but...

Originally Posted by Asian Times, your own reference, and possibly the least biased

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory.

But, it seems, from this information, that the incursion was provoked by Israeli operations in Lebanon. This is new information to me; however I am sure there is much more to these events which we don't know anyways. Apparently, there were many clashes between Hezbollah and Israeli forces on the border for some time before the event in question.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

i am collateral damage

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Taken from bbc:

Quote:

WEDNESDAY 12 JULY

Hezbollah fighters based in southern Lebanon launch Katyusha rockets across the border with Israel, targeting the town of Shlomi and outposts in the Shebaa Farms area.

In a cross-border raid, guerrillas seize two Israeli soldiers before retreating back into Lebanon, insisting on a prisoner exchange and warning against confrontation. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert describes the capture of the soldiers as "an act of war".

- news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5179434.stm

according to this, Hezbollah has abducted the 2 soldiers from within the Israeli territory. As well as shelled Israel (yes, from day one).

Taken from the cnn’s site (from their time-line of the events):

Quote:

Hezbollah fires a pair of rockets into northern Israel from southern Lebanon, and guerrillas capture two Israeli soldiers during an attack along the Lebanese border between the Israeli towns of Zar'it and Shtula.

- edition.cnn.com/interactive/world/0607/timeline.lebanon.israel/frameset.exclude.html

Taken from Wikipedia:

Quote:

At 9:05 AM local time (06:05 CET), on 12 July 2006, Hezbollah initiated a Katyusha rocket and mortar attack on Israeli military positions and villages of northern Israel as a diversionary tactic, injuring at least 8 Israelis according to some reports, and lightly injuring 5 according to others. Afterwards, a ground contingent of Hezbollah militants attacked two Israeli armored Humvees on a routine patrol along the Israel-Lebanon border near the Israeli village of Zar'it with anti-tank rockets, capturing two Israeli soldiers, and killing eight. According to the Lebanese police force and Hezbollah, the Israeli soldiers were attacked and captured on the Lebanese side of the border on 12 July during a mission to infiltrate the Lebanese town of Ayta al-Sha`b, although remains of the Humvees were found in Israel.
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

Nehmi, these are 2 of your sources:

Quote:

The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon...

Quote:

The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon…

The Hezbollah has announced that the Israelis were captured in Lebanon, but that’s not true. The Hezbollah has abducted the soldiers from within Israeli territory. That’s all there is to it.

In response to Casual_Otaku:

What’s happened there is definitely tragic. But these children’s deaths is the Hezbollah’s doing, even if it was caused by Israeli fire. The Hezbollah is risking the Lebanese civilians’ lives by operating from within Lebanese cities, by hiding ammunition inside Lebanese civilian buildings, and by launching rockets from within populated areas.

mms://mz12.mediazone.co.il/mediazone/34/3204!3631.wmv

This film is taken from a recent IDF briefing shown on Israeli television. The video shows the launching of rockets from the area of Kfar Qana. The video continues to show several vehicles that were used to launch rockets entering civilian buildings after launching said rockets.

Oh, and han89, by “real, workable solutions”, I didn’t mean: “just do whatever the Hezbollah wants, and all will be fine.” That’s just dumb.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Quote:

The thing is that you did bomb 75% of the town and bring it down. And just so you know, since you are knowing a lot today, no Hezbollah fighter is hiding in any building, they have said that.

I'm sorry, but I find someone taking something Hezbollah says with a straight face amusing. While it might be true that they weren't in the specific buildings(after all, there's so many civilian buildings that Hezbollah likes to hide in, how can you be sure you're blowing up the right ones?) that were destroyed, taking their word for it is kind of pointless.

Is what Israel is doing right? I honestly can't say. They're trapped in a nasty mess with an enemy who does like to hide it's forces among civilians. That's standard terrorist tactics. Hell, Hezbollah is BRAGGING about Israel killing more civilians than Hezbollah soldiers/guerillas/terrorists(take your pick on what you want to call them) which tells you how much they really care about the people of Lebanon.

Doing a prisoner exchange is pointless though. That'll just encourage groups like Hezbollah and Hamas to do it again and again. So I agree with Israel's no prisoner exchange stance.

Really, Israel loses no matter what they do. Lebanon loses even more no matter what happens. In the final analysis though, Israel is going to do what's best for Israel though, not what's best for Lebanon. Just like Iran is going to do what's best for Iran, the US is going to do what's best for the US, and every other country is going to do what's best for them. Until now Lebanon saw it as being in their best interests not to have a civil war with Hezbollah. This worked in the short run but it's now costing them as Hezbollah stirred up Israel.

And I'm of the opinion that there are no real workable solutions to the whole mess in the Middle East. Although the cynic in me says that a few decades down the road a real workable solution might come up in the form of mutual nuclear annihilation at the rate everyone there is going.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

A question, if there were rockets in the building, shoudln't it do a BIG HELL OF A GREAT BLAST????? it only crumbled like any other buliding and no rockets were found when taking out the 37 dead children and 25 other males and females and when the investigations were carried. So your video is as good as any cinematic done video!!!

And the soldiers WERE in Lebanon. Just because the CNN says so and everyone else says otherwise, it doesn't mean the CNN is the rightful news. THey were in our territories and we had every right to do what we did. And about the shelling from day one, that's wrong info.

And a workable solution is not give israel what they want either!!! Dream on about that too!

The Hezbollah always had soldiers captured and exchanged them for prisonners, and Israel always did. So don't tell me that the exchange was impossible because they used to do it so the war is Israel's fault, they announced it... As easy as that!!!!

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Originally Posted by han89

The Hezbollah always had soldiers captured and exchanged them for prisonners, and Israel always did. So don't tell me that the exchange was impossible because they used to do it so the war is Israel's fault, they announced it... As easy as that!!!!

You don't seem to understand why this justification doesn't work. At all.

Consider this hypothetical dialogue between two members of a group which regularly kidnaps and ransoms people. Let me know if it makes sense:

1> "So it looks like the cops are trying to capture us again"
2> "Yeah, whats with that? We've always kidnapped someone rich, and gotten a lot of money out of their relatives. A simple exchange. Its a good system: we get money, and they get their relatives back."
1> "I don't understand why the police keep wanting to capture us. Its like we're doing something that other people don't like. WTF?"
2> "What a pain. It would be nice if those darned cops would lay off us for once."

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?