The Middle East spirals out of control!

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Nah, not everything needs manpower, Styphon.

Military conquest, especially on the scale you're talking about, requires manpower. Taking all of the land involved would require plenty of numbers, and holding it would require even more. The fact of the matter is, even if the Israelis wanted to take everything from the Nile to the Euphrates, the size of their population means they can't, even if they call up every single reservist and shut down their economy in the process. Period.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

What I meant was that I disagree with only Palestinian groups having a legitimate reason for attacking Israel. Clearly, they do, and they're not the only ones, since I went into Syria and the reasons it has.

I must have cut it out when rewording the sentence. Whoops.

FELIPE NO

So are you implying a kind of proxy enforcement, as was the case with the Nazi occupation of Europe? Good luck with that. Getting arab agencies to oppress other arabs for the sake of Israel wouldn't last very long at all.

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I have to disagree with Palestinian organizations having any legitimacy for aggression against Israel. Syria has its own reasons, since Israel still occupies Syrian territory in the Golan Heights.

I was focusing more on the Palestinian side of things, which Havoc is focusing on. Syria has no claim to represent the interests of a people they attempted to conquer in 1948 and two subsequent wars, though they do have a claim to the Golan Heights, as you've mentioned.

The Palestinians have been shit on long enough to justify their aggression towards Israel, but the methods of these liberation organizations don't give them much credence.

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You might have a good background about Guevara's principles so review that before you overrule this possibility.

If you mean that Bin Laden has attempted to foment pan-Arab sentiments in Palestine, then sure you may have a point. Doing so, though, doesn't actually serve his goals in any tangible way, since Palestinian nationalism is too strong a movement. It's a propaganda coup, in which Bin Laden uses the suffering of Palestinians to help justify murdering Americans, Europeans, Indonesians, and Africans. A fact that I think Palestinians are ashamed of. If Bin Laden was honestly interested in Palestinian liberation, then Al-Qaeda would be making a much stronger show of force in the Mediterranean than they are now.

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I see that somehow your stance has shifted a bit, at least from what i originally thought you were thinking, which is a good thing because open-mindedness is always a plus.

My original position hasn't changed. I fully support Israel's practice of military reactionism, though it's been well past the time for the IDF to make its message clear. Now is the time Israel should back off unless they want to stir up more permanent resentment for Israel and support for Hezbollah. Hezbollah will only be exterminated with help from the Lebanese, and helping them establish their sovereignty is the only way Israel can hope to secure it's northern border, and maintain stable relations with Lebanon.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

True Brady, regardless of what may be said about the strike, they should back off now, but i think they won't and will want to use this opertunity to lay their terms..

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Am I still the only one who thinks the Zionist conspiracy working through the United States is crazy as fuck?

Well, the part about the Zionist lobby sending us to Iraq is a bunch of crap, but that's being spread about to confuse the issue, I think. We have a huge problem with the Israeli-lobby in this country.

This is a particularly good article on the subject.

Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein have also written on the topic.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

The power of suggestion, Onyx, not direct sending, remember that bush's a moron, it might add up.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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Israeli air raid kills 50, troops cross border to attack Hizbollah

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Israel unleashed fierce air strikes on Lebanon on Wednesday, killing 49 civilians and a Hizbollah fighter, as boats and buses left Beirut laden with thousands of foreigners fleeing the eight-day-old conflict.

Israeli troops crossed the border to raid Hizbollah posts and Al Arabiya television said two Israeli soldiers had been killed and two wounded in clashes with the Shi'ite guerrillas.

(...)

Despite international diplomatic efforts, there was no sign Israel or its Lebanese Shi'ite foes were ready to heed the Beirut government's pleas for an immediate halt to a war that has cost at least 285 lives in Lebanon and 25 in Israel.

(...)

At least 12 Lebanese, including several children, were killed and 30 wounded in an Israeli air strike that destroyed several houses in the southern village of Srifa, residents said.

(...)

FOREIGNERS FLEE

At least 37 other civilians were killed in air strikes that hammered other parts of south and east Lebanon, security sources said. Hizbollah said one of its fighters was killed.

(...)

Acting Interior Minister Ahmed Fatfat said Israel was trying to destroy Lebanon's infrastructure, not just to defeat Hizbollah. "Are they turning it into a second Iraq?" he asked.

(...)

The conflict has forced about 100,000 Lebanese to flee their homes. Panicked foreigners have flooded out of the country.

"It's very bad, very sad, I can't believe what's happening," said a tearful Lubna Jaber, an Australian who had come to visit relatives in Lebanon. She was waiting in downtown Beirut with about 350 compatriots to board buses and then a ferry to Turkey.

Source: reuters.com

Pictures of destroyed residential areas in Beirut:





I think the invasion of Lebanon is a big mistake. If anything, Hizbollah can't be crushed by these attacks. They have plenty of space to retreat. The Israeli army can't just sweep through the whole of Lebanon or even cross the border to Syria.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Rock

The Israeli army can't just sweep through the whole of Lebanon or even cross the border to Syria.

Can't is different from won't. So I advise you to never be certain of anything. It's a sign of weakness.

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Oh make no mistake, the Israelis could easily sweep through Lebanon. The problem lies in the aftereffects of another Israeli-led invasion into Lebanon.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I think that maybe they (the Israel army) should have done this a long time ago. Actually I'm more than a bit mad that in the past they actually agreed to return 3 corpses & one captives, for so many people who has been willing to be terrorists once again!

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Miki4

I think that maybe they (the Israel army) should have done this a long time ago

If you're talking about destroying Lebanon, this is actually a repeat performance.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

If you're talking about destroying Lebanon, this is actually a repeat performance.

Well I actually think that the army they helped to build, the army of south Lebanon, they should have kept it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

On a side topic of this issue, yesterday I was watching ch news late at night and they were having a debate about the evacuation of Canadian citizens. Currently, the Canadian government states that they will evacuate all Canadian citizens and their family members. What some people on the debate were getting at is there Canadian citizens that are permantent residents of Lebannon and they aren't paying taxes or contributing to Canada. Should the government offer the same services of extracting as the tourists in Lebannon?
Issues were like that some permanent residents were getting out sooner than the tourists and being that the extraction prcoess for Canadian's is progressing really slowly and hecticly, who gets out first is a major issue.

I personally feel that all Canadians should be extradited, the government should send out their naval ships to help (theres 2 that are being prepped but they said they aren't being sent out yet). After Canadian citizen's have been extracted, the government should help lebanese civilians escape as well. Yes, Canadian tax payers are paying for it, but if we can help, we should do so.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'm going to agree with BE here. I used to live overseas, and even though there's not a more stable place to live then the UAE nowadays (maybe Oman), I don't see any difference in extracting permanent residents then tourists. Just because we're not livng in Canada doesn't mean that isn't home anymore. People should come before money more often.

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Please go to http://julywar.epetition.net and sign the Save the Lebanese Civilians Petition and forward this invitation to your friends.

Lebanese civilians have been under the constant attack of the state of Israel for several days. The State of Israel, in disregard to international law and the Geneva Convention, is launching a maritime and air siege targeting the entire population of the country. Innocent civilians are being collectively punished in Lebanon by the state of Israel in deliberate acts of terrorism as described in Article 33 of the Geneva Convention.

http://julywar.epetition.net

SIGN THE PETITION FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHILDREN DIEING EVERYDAY!!!

Double Post:
And whoever has no soul, feel free to ask me for pictures about the butcheries the israeli warplanes are doing everyday! It'll make a rock lean!

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

It’s been a long time since I last entered this forum (I think my previous user has been deleted). I never felt like posting anything (guess I’m more interested in reading about other peoples’ thoughts). But being Israeli, I am interested in reading about other people’s opinions of the situation (and by other people, I don’t mean politicians or news-reporters), so I decided to check this forums up. After 6 pages of reading about everything from the fighting in Lebanon, to the philosophy behind the saying “might indeed does make right”, to reading about the hidden “agendas” and “schemes” of the “Zionists” to conquer all, I’ve finally “broken” and decided to post my thoughts.
I'd like to apologies in advance for any grammar or spelling mistake that I might make. English is not my native language.

First of all, in difference of some other people’s “neutral” and “non-biased” opinions about the situation, I don’t claim my opinions to be any such thing. And I don’t think anyone can rightfully claim that he-himself\she-herself is un-biased. Especially if they have personal connection to the conflict at hand.

In response to the claims that Israel need to back down now:
Don’t forget that Israel has retaliated for 2 main reasons that we have yet to accomplish: The safely return of the 2 abducted soldiers and the retreat of the Hezbollah forces from southern Lebanon.
I honestly don’t think there is any reason to expand on the reasoning for these 2 goals. Any other country that would have been so unrighteously provoked by another terrorist organization, would undoubtedly done the same, if not much more. Besides, if we back down now, Hezbollah will see it as a victory, and it will only be a matter of time until it decides to act again. This is an opportunity that we didn’t seek, but rather, was forced onto us. And the fact is that according to all the major polls conducted by all the big newspapers in Israel, 88-90 percents of the Israelis, want to seize this opportunity to rid us of Hezbollah once and for all. Israelis are usually divided in opinions as to what’s the best thing to do, how to react, etc… Never in my 20 years of existence, have I seen such a consensus among the Israeli people. And can you really blame us?

Also, don’t go telling me that Israel is using excessive force. If your (yes, you reading this, your) country wouldn’t have done the same for your soldiers (and let us not forget the citizens that were bombarded by Hezbollah’s Katyusha rockets during that Wednesday morning, in order to cover the kidnapping of the soldiers), then the problem is with your country, not mine.

For all those who say that Israel is attacking civilian targets (and I won’t go into quotes here, cause it seems there’s a hefty bunch of them), all I can say, is that it’s war, and in war there are casualties. Believe me that no one in Israel is extremely happy at the death of innocent civilians, and it surely doesn’t serve our goals (on the contrary). But you can’t expect us to retaliate against a terrorist organization (militia, country, or whatever you wish to call them) without some casualties. That would be an unreasonable demand. In fact, IDF has actually warned the citizens that live in the areas that were bombarded beforehand, even though it also gave warning to the terrorists in those areas. If, for whatever reason, some citizens chose to stay in those areas, then that’s their choice, and you can’t hold us responsible for their lives. If someone would rather stay with his\her possessions than save their lives, maybe they aren’t that innocent…
The heads of Hezbollah know that Israel is reluctant to bombard civilian infrastructures, and that’s why they hide their ammunition in residential areas, in mosques and other such places.

The fact is that Israel is much more selective of its targets than most other countries (Russia and the Chechen Republic, and the U.S. and Iraq and Afghanistan are 2 examples). And if the situation was the other way around (with us and the Hezbollah) I probably wouldn’t be sitting here right now (not to mention, being able to sit at all, ever).

It’s very easy to condemn Israel and state that it should restrain its force, when you’re sitting miles away in your safe homes, in front of your computers. But if it was the U.K., the U.S., Germany, France, Australia or any other modern – liberal – peace-keeping country that would have been so brutally attacked by another country\organization-within-a-country, it would have retaliated with all its might.

Not only that, but even the Arab countries are suspiciously quiet about the Israeli retaliation. Else wise, why did the Arab summit fail. I for one, was expecting them to condemn Israel. I actually sat in disbelief when I heard that they didn’t reach an agreement. Not even the Arab countries condemn Israel’s actions. What other reasoning do you possibly need?

Finally, if you expect us to just sit quietly while constantly being threatened (verbally as well as physically) and provoked, then you’re just being naïve. No Israeli is extremely happy about sending our soldiers (sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, grand-children, spouses) to war, but sometimes, your enemies cross the line (literally) and leave you no choice.

Sorry for the long post...

I was speaking idiomatically.

I'll not go into a quote war with your post (although I'm sure others will), but I have this one question to ask:

Do you honestly think that this war will help improve your situation at all? Don't you think that the military actions in Lebanon serve as the ultimate justification for Hezbollah's very existence? Even if you choose to invade Lebanon with ground troops, Hezbollah has plenty of room to retreat. You won't crush the idea behind this organization with military power! Meanwhile, Israel's real problem - the Palaestininans - remains unsolved.

Don't get me wrong, the constant abductions are inexcusable, but making the Lebanese people suffer for Hezbollah is the worst thing you could probably do, because they will not forget. Israel's goal should have been to stabilize the Lebanese government and help them isolate Hezbollah. Obviously, they chose to tear the whole nation apart instead. And what are you going to gain from a country in ruins? People willing to fight their oppressors (= Hezbollah).

Good job, Israel.

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I was actually thinking about how great it would be to get an Israeli perspective here. It's also great, because you're a lot more articulate than other Israelis I've seen.

I didn't mean to imply that Israel should stop attacking Hezbollah when I said that they should back off. What I was getting at was that Israel needs to lighten the pressure on the Lebanese so that inroads can be made between the Israelis and the Lebanese government. If Lebanon isn't an active player in the destruction of Hezbollah, then another organization will take its place even if you do destroy them.

War zone or not, the IDF is taking out civilian targets. This is an inescapeable fact, and no amount of excusing is going to change that. However, the IDF also can't be blamed for doing so, since, as you've pointed out, Hezbollah has made it an active policy to put the people of Lebanon in harm's way. A reporter from CNN was allowed into South Beirut several hours after the Israelis reported they dropped 26 tons of bombs on a Hezbollah headquarters (an earlier reporter was turned away, I wonder why?). It was indeed a mosque under construction that was hit, but despite the lack of any materiel, the reporter did note that it had an unusually large basement for a Mosque. It's nobody's fault but Hezbollah, and their supporters, that Lebanese have to be killed over this. Who do they intend to protect when they leave rocket stockpiles in neighborhoods?

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The fact is that Israel is much more selective of its targets than most other countries

This is also very true. At least so far, I haven't seen the IDF dropping White Phosphorous into southern Lebanese towns.

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And if the situation was the other way around (with us and the Hezbollah) I probably wouldn’t be sitting here right now (not to mention, being able to sit at all, ever).

Attempting to excuse atrocity by comparison, though, doesn't really excuse anything. If Israel was on the receiving end of force equal to that of it's own, it'd be a moot point, since Israel would have been destroyed long ago. Offsetting accountability by association doesn't prove anything, it just proves that you're marginally less of a jerk, if you get what I'm saying.

People expect Israel to be the moral superior, and so far they've done so. The IDF says it's been holding back 1/5th of their operational capability, and I believe it. Southern Beirut would be nothing but rubble now if the IDF wasn't sensitive of collateral damage.

This is the nature of war, though. So long as you're the winner, there's no need to excuse yourself.

I like how the leader of Hezbollah claimed that the two Palestinian kids they killed with Katjusha rockets were Martyrs for Palestine. As if he had the right to declare it.

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Not only that, but even the Arab countries are suspiciously quiet about the Israeli retaliation.

Not really. Hezbollah represents a large Shi'a contingent, and actively represents the interests of Iran and Syria. The Arab nations haven't forgotten how Iran was prepared to march the Basij across the Middle East in the 80's. If Israel is going to act as a buffer to their influence, then Israel's neighbors, and the other members of the Arab league aren't going to look to stop them.

FELIPE NO

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Do you honestly think that this war will help improve your situation at all?

Well, we really only have a few choices, don't we?
No military action at all, is unacceptable, since it will only encourage Hezbollah to continue. Negotiations for the exchange of prisoners are out of question, for the same reason.
The Lebanese government obviously, wasn't willing to do anything against Hezbollah. And approaching the international community is just a waste of time. Both of these routs lead to negotiations and prisoner exchanges.

On the other hand (and I know I didn't go through all the alternatives above). For the first time, the Lebanese government is starting to realize that the Hezbollah is just a liability, by hinting that the Hezbollah is somewhat to blame for the current situation (I don't remember the exact quote, but their PM has said that the Lebanese people are paying for the Hezbollah's actions). And honestly, if they want to govern Lebanon, they need to take some responsibility, the Hezbollah does have 23 seats in the parliament and an army of its own. No country can afford to have an army that is not directly controlled by the government.
Also, I do honestly think that Hezbollah was taken aback a bit by the Israeli reaction. I think they anticipated the situation would be more like after the kidnapping of the 3 Israeli soldiers awhile ago (right after the pull out from Lebanon). Maybe next time they'll hesitate a bit (if, god forbid, there will be a next time).

The Hezbollah may be able to retreat, but if the Lebanese government will decide to act against Hezbollah either by themselves, or by using international assistance, then we did made a difference. But they have to acknowledge that letting the Hezbollah be, is only going to damage themselves. They did manage to get Syria's troops out of Lebanon. And memory serve, Syria is much stronger than Hezbollah.

I think that most of the nations in the region (except for Syria and Iran, obviously), are all for the disarm of Hezbollah. The problem is that no one is actually doing anything. And if no one else take the initiative, then we have to defend ourselves. And that we did. Unfortunately, innocent civilians are getting harmed, on both sides.

The problem is that negotiating with terrorists is pointless and futile. It doesn't matter that we pulled out of Lebanon, now Hezbollah is "fighting for the Palestinians", even if we resolve the conflict with the Palestinians, there will always be other things to fight over. At some point, you have to make an end to this.
The Lebanese probably hate us right now, but if Hezbollah is destroyed, and we pull out of Lebanon (I don't think a single Israeli really wants to stay there for any longer than is absolutely necessary (too many bad memories)), there would be no reason to form another terrorists organization.
I know it's kinda optimistic, but if we do nothing, the next time is just going to be harder on both sides. With Hezbollah having a larger arsenal of more diverse weapons, longer range rockets and missiles, and maybe some other stuff the Iranians will decide to give them.

Maybe we won't be able to surrender the Hezbollah completely, but we are definitely making change. If we pull back now, the Hezbollah will see it as a victory (a tie with Israel, is victory enough for them). They obviously don't rely only on straight facts, when representing their arguments to the people. Thus, at the end of the day, it should be clear beyond any doubt, that the Hezbollah's actions are just undermining the Lebanese interests. And that the Hezbollah hasn't accomplished any of its goals in the attack. Any less of that, will just result in us having the same discussion in a few years.

As for the Palestinian problem, well, I don't really see the connection. Hezbollah has nothing to do with the Palestinians. If they're so into helping others, they should start with "their own" country and invest more money in the reconstruction of Lebanon, than in arming themselves.

As for aiding the Lebanese government. I don't think they'd take any assistance from Israel. Even before the fighting has began. Even if we did offer assistance (and we don't exactly have extra cash. Believe me, the budget in Israel is as tight as it gets. And even then, we're assisting the Palestinians: with electricity, water, health care, and even giving them money (at least before the Hamas was elected).
I think the aiding part should be left to the rest of the world. But you're right, a prosperous Lebanon is in our best interests. It's just that getting aid from Israel isn't going to look good to the Lebanese people, and definitely won't help their government with the public support.

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Attempting to excuse atrocity by comparison, though, doesn't really excuse anything.

Obviously, you're right. I was in no way trying to compare us to them. I only wanted to strengthen the fact that IDF is not just targeting civilian targets in order to cause as much damage as possible (as opposed to the Hezbollah, that would have gladly "wiped us all off the map"). If we wanted to do that, it wouldn't have taken 10 days (or is it 11, I'm losing the count).

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I like how the leader of Hezbollah claimed that the two Palestinian kids they killed with Katjusha rockets were Martyrs for Palestine. As if he had the right to declare it.

Yeah, that was kinda insolent, to say the least.

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Not really. Hezbollah represents a large Shi'a contingent, and actively represents the interests of Iran and Syria. The Arab nations haven't forgotten how Iran was prepared to march the Basij across the Middle East in the 80's. If Israel is going to act as a buffer to their influence, then Israel's neighbors, and the other members of the Arab league aren't going to look to stop them.

Even Iran and Syria aren't as loud as they usually are. Nasrallah was very eager to deny any Iranian involvement in the current conflict...

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

It's probably because the Iranians didn't give them the go ahead for the kidnappings, which means that Hezbollah's command is acting without Iranian advice. Despite Iranian and Syrian support, Hezbollah is still a militia, and they'll act despite the influence put on them by Damascus and Tehran.

Then again, spokesmen for both nations speak in half-truths, plausible deniability, or have repeatedly dodged questions. The Syrian ambassador to the US has appeared on Larry King Live several times, and done a skillful job of blaming Israel for the problem without implicating Syria in any involvement.

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As for the Palestinian problem, well, I don't really see the connection. Hezbollah has nothing to do with the Palestinians. If they're so into helping others, they should start with "their own" country and invest more money in the reconstruction of Lebanon, than in arming themselves.

That's because Hezbollah is more interested in garnering political support in Lebanon than actually accomplishing anything for the Palestinians, or even locally. Palestine is a popular cause, and that kind of rhetoric serves well when it comes to donation drives. The indiscriminate use of rockets by Hezbollah, however, indicate that they have no real consideration for the safety of Arabs in Palestine, as the death of those two kids has made clear. Bombs don't differentiate between Arabs or Jews.

This is what I was trying to get at before with CryHavoc by asking why Hamas wouldn't target the tools of oppression. Organizations like Hamas aren't actually interested in the liberation of the West Bank and Gaza, they're more interested in garnering power as regional and political forces. The charity organizations set up by Hamas and Hezbollah are proof enough of that. It basically comes down to warrior politics, and every now and then they need to flex their muscles with a cafe bombing or a soldier kidnapping to prove to irate Palestinians that they're still on the up-and-up. Buying votes with medicine and vindication.

I bet you the impending medical crisis in Lebanon created by the IDF's destruction of Lebanese infrastructure will receive a significant leg up from the friendly neighborhood Hezbollah.

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But you're right, a prosperous Lebanon is in our best interests. It's just that getting aid from Israel isn't going to look good to the Lebanese people, and definitely won't help their government with the public support.

This is true, the moderate government doesn't want another civil war on its hands by acting in league with Israel. I think the threat of assassination is also keeping Lebanese officials from speaking out more about Hezbollah, as well.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

So if we can all agree on the fact that a stable Lebanon is in the best interest to all parties involved, why is it that the whole country's infrastructure has to be destroyed now?

I mean, wouldn't a somewhat closer diplomatic relationship and support to Beirut be a lot more productive than the bombing of roads, bridges, buildings and airports that will take years and decades to be rebuilt? After just merely recovering from the previous occupation and the ensuing civil war, the Lebanese people have their country in ruins yet again. What makes a sane person think that the atrocities will not be engraved in the collective mind of these people forever?

Let's just assume for a second here that Israel can actually wipe out the Hezbollah entirely: What makes you think that those witnessing all the carnage and destruction now aren't going to take up arms against Israel? There's always a new generation of terrorists just waiting around the corner, willing to risk their lives fighting against those who came into their country destroying their homes and killing their families. Do you honestly think they care about the reason for Israel's actions?

How ya doing, buddy?

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So if we can all agree on the fact that a stable Lebanon is in the best interest to all parties involved, why is it that the whole country's infrastructure has to be destroyed now?

The whole infrastructure is NOT being destroyed. Remember that Israel posses enough conventional weapons (not counting Nuclear) to level the entire country. We are talking about areas that Hezbollah is operating out of.
You CAN NOT make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Why do people refuse to accept the fact that Israel is being courteous in comparasion to what Hamas, Hezbollah would be doing if they had access to equilivent arms?

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I mean, wouldn't a somewhat closer diplomatic relationship and support to Beirut be a lot more productive than the bombing of roads, bridges, buildings and airports that will take years and decades to be rebuilt? After just merely recovering from the previous occupation and the ensuing civil war, the Lebanese people have their country in ruins yet again. What makes a sane person think that the atrocities will not be engraved in the collective mind of these people forever?

What would a closer diplomatic relationship to Beirut accomplish in regards to dismantling Hezbollah. Beirut did nothing before the attacks, during the attacks and even now. Israel is determined to knock Hezbollah out of southern lebanon. Where is the cooperation?

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Let's just assume for a second here that Israel can actually wipe out the Hezbollah entirely: What makes you think that those witnessing all the carnage and destruction now aren't going to take up arms against Israel? There's always a new generation of terrorists just waiting around the corner, willing to risk their lives fighting against those who came into their country destroying their homes and killing their families. Do you honestly think they care about the reason for Israel's actions?

Maybe there will be a new generation of terrorists, maybe not. Either case, a soverign nation must do what a soverign nation must do.

You bloody my nose, I will bloody your nose back (less I am willing to be your bitch). Do I really give a damn that me bloodying your nose back might result in you being "more upset" at me and result in you trying to kick me in the shins?

I'm just going to kick back and if you continue to attack, I'll just break your damn neck.

The moral of the story is to don't pick fights.

Second moral is there is always room for forgiveness. Apologize for punching me in the nose, return my 2 soldiers and stop shelling my citizens.

The ball is in Hezbollah's court when it comes to stopping this invasion.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Close diplomatic relationship with Beirut, and supporting the Lebanese government is kinda problematic right now. The Lebanese government (rightfully) doesn’t want any aid from Israel. Because, let’s be frank, Israel is not very popular in the Arab world (to say the least) and getting aid from Israel will only help Hezbollah get more momentum in the Lebanese political arena. They will illustrate the current Lebanese government as a supporter of Israel, maybe even as a puppet\proxy government, that gives in to Israel and the U.S. .
Any aid that the Lebanese government is going to get from Israel will only damage their image in the Lebanese public opinion. I’m all for the reconstruction of Lebanon, but the aid shouldn’t come from Israel, or we’ll risk the (oh so fragile) stability of the Lebanese government.

The bombardment of civilian infrastructures has a very real strategic purpose in the fighting against Hezbollah. If their roads are destroyed, the Hezbollah will find it that much harder to move its rockets to strategic launching positions. It will take them longer to move troops. The Hezbollah leaders will find it more difficult to move from one hideout to another. The bombardment of the air and sea ports, obviously serves the same purpose, with emphasis on the smuggling of weaponry from Iran. Moving the 2 Israeli soldiers to Syria or Iran, probably hasn’t gotten any easier, either.
Civilian buildings are used by the Hezbollah to hide ammunition and supplies. If we want to damage Hezbollah, we have to thin out its arsenal. If we don’t want them to launch rockets at our towns and cities, we have to take that ability from them.

As for the formation of other terrorist organizations after the fighting is done. If we just assume that whatever military action we take, will lead to more terror, then maybe we shouldn’t retaliate at all. Maybe we should just sit at our homes, scared to move a muscle, because we don’t want to offend the Lebanese people. I personally think that doing nothing, just waiting for the next unprovoked attack, will not only accomplish nothing, but will also encourage the Hezbollah to act again, and more boldly. Doing too little, will have the same effect.

Hezbollah is used by now to small and pointless counter attacks (destroying a few deserted terrorist camps in the middle of nowhere). Only a retaliation that will threaten the organization and its leaders’ very existence could serve.

The all point of this operation is the dismantle of Hezbollah and the deployment of the Lebanese army along its southern border. If the Lebanese government will gain control of its country, then I don’t see too great a threat of other terrorist groups, such as Hezbollah, rising in Lebanon. They had 6 years to disarm Hezbollah with whatever means they would have chosen to. If it has had to come to that in order for them to realize the importance of getting rid of all terrorist organizations within their country (even risking fighting their own people), then… well... tough.

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All I can say is wow...

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/0...comment-188040

I was speaking idiomatically.

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All I can say is wow...

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/0...comment-188040

You do realize that people are taking those photos completely out of context right? It's addressed to the leader of Hezbollah.

If you want to play propaganda games here's some info from Saudi Arabia - SUPPOSEDLY a MODERATE ARAB government.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13804825/

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There has been progress. However, a new study found examples of intolerance, even hate, in multiple Saudi textbooks now used in grades 1-12.

Nina Shea's group — the Center for Religious Freedom — examined textbooks used during the past school year, and found the following teachings, which were verified by NBC News:

* Jews and Christians are "enemies" of Muslims.
* Every religion other than Islam is "false."
* "The hour [of Judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them."

"It's taught that Christians and Jews are the enemy of the Muslim," says Shea. "And that the Muslim must wage jihad in order to spread the faith in battle against the infidel."

What's more, an eighth grade text equates Jews with "apes" and Christian infidels with "swine." A tenth grade text teaches that the life of a Muslim is worth twice that of a non-Muslim.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?