[Wii] Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Ver. 214. Gobble Gobble Gobble, Slurp Slurp Slurp

There are fightin' games with little to no lag like VF5 on the 360. I'm sorry but the cause for all the connection problems and lag in Brawl is nothing more then shitty netcode on the developers part. It also befuddles the living shit outta me that so many of you are defending the netcode when it is absymal at best.

Originally Posted by Basil

The only reason there's lag for anybody really is because nobody knows how to configure their Wii and router so that the connection is made faster. It involves going into your router's DMZ settings as well as going into the Wii's options to modify the Internet settings (specifically Auto-Obtain IP Address, Auto-Obtain DNS and MTU Value).

And file-sharing, too. Using up your internet's bandwidth to play Brawl and transfer stuff online at the same time really slows it down. You gotta cut off your FTP, torrents, Soulseek, HTTP downloads, EVERYTHING.

Maybe I ought to write a small tutorial on this stuff.

Edit: Wait, what's wrong with this advice, Iwata. Isn't this something everyone should be aware of...?

That entire post reeks of a condescending attitude. Add to the fact that you yourself admitted in a later post that you don't game online except for Brawl, then you'll see why i dissed the post.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I laugh at anyone who says this is Nintendo trying their "best". Are you for real? If this is the best they can do, I weep openly for their future projects.

I thought it was fairly obvious that when those people who know how to set up thier home network and were STILL HAVING PROBLEMS that it was not them at fault here.

How far up your own ass is your head lodged in order to think that it's the end user with the problem instead of the product, here? How devoted are some people to a developer or franchise to totally absolve it of any potential blame in a situation such as this?

I honestly thought we had come to the conclusion that the implementation of the online was complete garbage by now. Are you telling me there are still fanfag retards in this thread who think it's JUST the fault of someone's router? On a forum full of nerds, with many complaining of lingering lag, do you really think they are all incapable of optimizing their setup? Are you JOKING?

The game is P2P, people. Just a protip.

I was speaking idiomatically.

First of all I'm not trying to "defend" Nintendo on their online. I know it's shit compare to Live but since it's free I'm not complaining much. My brother and I play other online fighting game and they varies from semi-lag-free to 5-frame-rate-per-second-lag just like Brawl.

I was kidding about changing ISP because so far I haven't heard a complaint from people in Japan.

So from my experience any kind of fighting game will experience some sort of lag and that's what I'm trying to say. And yes I did say Nintendo tried their best at online game. Brawl is one of their weak point. Just wait until Mario Kart Wii officially release in your country and play the game online. 12 player with anybody around the world and you'll experience little to no lag.

I'll stop my "ranting" here.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Iwata

There are fightin' games with little to no lag like VF5 on the 360.

I'm sure the three people that played Virtua Fighter 5 online are absolutely thrilled too.

FELIPE NO

I think one problem lies in that with games coming out today, people expect for online play, so developers feel they need to put it into games, one way or another. In the case of SSBB, it seems like they kinda just slapped it together just to have the ability to play with others over the net, regardless of optimal performance.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by NovaX

I'm sure the three people that played Virtua Fighter 5 online are absolutely thrilled too.

What does the size of the userbase have to do with the netcode? If the netcode is shit, it isn't gonna matter if a million people or 20 are online and playing. Shit is still gonna lag and that is the problem with Brawl, the netcode is absolutely atrocious. Given that online play was also one of the big selling points of Brawl, it is unacceptable that it is this terrible.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Kagosin

I think one problem lies in that with games coming out today, people expect for online play, so developers feel they need to put it into games, one way or another. In the case of SSBB, it seems like they kinda just slapped it together just to have the ability to play with others over the net, regardless of optimal performance.

This.

There are many games on Live that are unplayable due to horrific online implementations, such as Lumines, N+ and the recently released Mr. Driller Online. So this isn't a phenominon centered around Nintendo only.

It's silly that they are slapping these things together and using the online as a selling feature and just shitting it out the door in this state.

Originally Posted by BigCN401

since it's free I'm not complaining much

This is pretty much wrong. It's NOT free. It's a feature in a game you PAID for. In some people's cases, it was one of the reasons they bought the game, and to have it not function properly is not a-ok because there isn't an ancillary cost tacked on to the service.

Quote:

I was kidding about changing ISP because so far I haven't heard a complaint from people in Japan.

The game's network performance was probably tested on Japan's far-superior-to-ours infrastructure. Obviously it would need to be optimized for a slower average network in order to run better over on this side of the pond. That probably wasn't done.

Quote:

Just wait until Mario Kart Wii officially release in your country and play the game online. 12 player with anybody around the world and you'll experience little to no lag.

Bold words, you willing to back that up with something?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Iwata

What does the size of the userbase have to do with the netcode? If the netcode is shit, it isn't gonna matter if a million people or 20 are online and playing. Shit is still gonna lag and that is the problem with Brawl, the netcode is absolutely atrocious. Given that online play was also one of the big selling points of Brawl, it is unacceptable that it is this terrible.

Notice I didn't mention netcode in my post at all? I agree SSBB is coded horribly in concerns to online, most Japanese games are. Most Japanese developers are inexperienced when it comes to online game as they adopted it much later than western developers.

Also bringing up one example of a well netcoded game, VF 5, is pretty much grabbing at straws. I don't even know if it's an accurate claim or not, I haven't played it. Although it is a fact that many fighting games have horrible lag, few have got it right. And opposed to more traditional fighting games, Smash Brothers is far more complex and I'd assume harder to get running smoothly in an online setting.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

My limited experience playing Brawl online has been strange. I've honestly had very little lag for a number of matches and then one player will leave, another joins, and all of the sudden it feels like the characters are moving underwater. I'm no internet wizard but it seems to me that online play was designed based on the assumption that everyone has fast internet which is obviously not the case.

Originally Posted by NovaX

Also bringing up one example of a well netcoded game, VF 5, is pretty much grabbing at straws. I don't even know if it's an accurate claim or not, I haven't played it. Although it is a fact that many fighting games have horrible lag, few have got it right. And opposed to more traditional fighting games, Smash Brothers is far more complex and I'd assume harder to get running smoothly in an online setting.

I'd imagine that trying to make a fighting game work online is way more of a pain in the ass than a Racing game or even a FPS. The sheer amount of action in a fighting game is really blistering fast by comparison.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Traumatized Rat

I'd imagine that trying to make a fighting game work online is way more of a pain in the ass than a Racing game or even a FPS. The sheer amount of action in a fighting game is really blistering fast by comparison.

Absolutely. Also I guess this is more relevant to traditional fighting games than Smash Bros, but even limited lag can greatly affect the dynamic of a match. It's pretty much essential to get right to have a decent experience with the game.

Although online modes in fighting games are relatively new when compared to the FPS and Racing genres's. These genre's have had a long time to get it right and I think fighting games are trying to be held to the same standard, which probably isn't the best way to go about it.

I was speaking idiomatically.

NovaX: Skills and I were just discussing this online. The thing about a racing game is that a bit of lag really doesn't have an impact on the gameplay because the specific position of other racers in relation to yours doesn't necessarily have a direct impact on your success or failure in a race. (at least in a majority of instances) By contrast, in a fighting game, almost frame specific accuracy is necessary to maintain the integrity of the gameplay so if your character's moves are registering even a millisecond too slowly, it can mean defeat where victory should have taken place. Unfortunately, there is little to no room for error in this genre.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by NovaX

Smash Brothers is far more complex and I'd assume harder to get running smoothly in an online setting.

more complex then VF5? Get the fuck outta here. I'm sorry dude, but that is just absolutely wrong. I would be far more hesitant to face a top tier player in VF5 then i would ever be against one of the top tier players of any of the SSB games.

VF5 is a game that is all about precise timing and complex inputs and the fact that they've got it running online with little to no lag says something! It's not that Japanese Devs aren't custom to online features. It's just that they're lazy as fuck when it comes to coding them and do it in the spirit of EA by half-assing it.

Most of us wouldn't be complaining about the broken online portion of Brawl if it wasn't one of the highly advertised features and major selling points of the game. It's the sole reason I bought Brawl and I know the same can be said for countless others i've talked to. Hell, i'm contemplating selling my Brawl disc if the online doesn't improve before GTAIV hits.

FELIPE NO

Actually, VF5 is 2p only while Brawl supports up to 4p. That alone makes a big difference with regards to synchronization. However, that still shouldn't induce lag in gameplay in situations when latency compensation is not an issue.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Iwata

more complex then VF5? Get the fuck outta here. I'm sorry dude, but that is just absolutely wrong. I would be far more hesitant to face a top tier player in VF5 then i would ever be against one of the top tier players of any of the SSB games.

VF5 is a game that is all about precise timing and complex inputs and the fact that they've got it running online with little to no lag says something!

By complexity I didn't mean strategy-wise I meant it more more performance wise. I'm a huge Tekken nut, so I know traditional fighting games offer alot of depth & control with multiple-button combos and precise timing. SSBB offers (as Blah mentioned) upto 4P over just 2P, there are countless variables added in as well, with attack effects, items and stages all contributing. I doubt you could argue that SSBB is alot more hectic than VF. But as I expressed previously, lag has less of an imediate impact on gameplay in SSBB than it would on a game like VF or Tekken.

Quote:

It's not that Japanese Devs aren't custom to online features. It's just that they're lazy as fuck when it comes to coding them and do it in the spirit of EA by half-assing it.

Online gaming culture has been embraced nowhere near as quickly in Japan as it has in the West, but it's definitely shifting towards are wider market. It's been said previously, developers are adding online content to their games because they're expected to. I wholeheartedly agree with this. I'd even argue Japanese developers are adding content to please a more Western audience than the local community.

How ya doing, buddy?

I said I would stop but someone poked me.

Originally Posted by David Caruso

... This is pretty much wrong. It's NOT free. It's a feature in a game you PAID for. In some people's cases, it was one of the reasons they bought the game, and to have it not function properly is not a-ok because there isn't an ancillary cost tacked on to the service. ...

The game will cost $50 regardless if it had online or not. Mr. Sakurai/Mr. Iwata even said that they'll look into adding online for Brawl in E3 2006 because making a "fighting" game online will be difficult due to it's nature like me and other people had expressed in their post. I would be happy if it didn't have online but they put it in anyway and I'm very much appreciated that they did it.

Originally Posted by David Caruso

... Bold words, you willing to back that up with something?

Do people just skim through my post or something? Mario Kart Wii was leaked on Monday and I have been playing the game online since then. I've played 11 other people around the world in a race and battle with no lag whatsoever even with torrent and an fserve on IRC running. You can tell that you're playing against people from other countries when they introduce your opponent using the same globe from the News and Weather channel and from the name during in-game (red=Japan/Asia; blue=US/North America; green=EU/AU).

I guess no one wants an audio rip of Mario Kart Wii. XP
And all these post must had scared Chaotic from posting the "latest" dojo update.
psst. it's a complete list of all sticker in the game.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by BigCN401

And all these post must had scared Chaotic from posting the "latest" dojo update.
psst. it's a complete list of all sticker in the game.

It's true. I didn't wanna ruin the mood with something stupid.

Please, carry on with your debate.

Most amazing jew boots

I really just have to ask, even if there were no lag issues, does anybody find playing online to be actually "fun?"

I've tried online before, and it runs decently at best, and horribly at worst. Even running decently, I didn't find it to be much fun. I prefer playing against local people (on the same Wii, on the same television, in the same room) because most of the fun I find with Smash Bros. is slapping the guy next to you because of something stupid. Playing with completely random people takes a lot of the fun out of the game (for me anyway). Playing with friends or at least people you know is probably better (though admittedly, I've never had the chance to play with people I know, I've added everybody on the Wiki, but I've never actually played with anybody.) but I'm still pessimistic about online play. I don't mind getting my ass handed to me by people I know, but getting my ass handed to me by an anonymous person is somewhat annoying, to say the least. So, for me, it's hard to justify it as being "fun" and having shitty speeds just adds insult to injury.

I'll probably be staying off online play indefinitely (unless I know EXACTLY and preferably in-person who people on the other end are). Having voice chat doesn't help because I'll inevitably be spammed with either annoying 12 year olds or tourneyfags about how much I suck, and I'd rather not provide an answer to those for the good of all that is holy.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I find it fun.

I playied Melee to a point where I pretty much knew everything my friends were gonna do to me every time we battled. Got a little boring and a little predictable. But online, I get to face people whose styles are completely different from the way that my friends have.

Despite the lag, I still have a lot of fun from it since I never know what's gonna happen in each battle. I don't know who they're gonna choose or what stage we're gonna end up on, so it just adds on to the excitement factor that I don't know what I'm in for.

It's good enough for me. o_o

I was speaking idiomatically.

Chaotic basically sums it up for me too. lol

I find playing Brawl both offline and online fun. One thing I like about online is that I can paper-bitch-slap-fan someone without the person next to me "poking" me to stop.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I know this is late, but I haven't been around.

Earlier this week they put out a song list. As in every song in the game and how to unlock it. Wanna know what's missing?

Cruel Brawl.

This baffles the HELL out of me. Why is Cruel Brawl BGM completely inaccessible except for that mode? Even some of the insignificant OPTION SCREENS get in the soundtrack, but none such here...

FELIPE NO

Yeah, I find it kind of weird/stupid too. But I think you use the song in a custom stage. >_>

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Yeah, I remember seeing Cruel Brawl in the custom stage selection also.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by BigCN401

The game will cost $50 regardless if it had online or not.

I never once said it wouldn't, but just because it very easily could NOT have shipped with online doesn't mean that it's current implementation is acceptable. "He said it was difficult, so it's ok if he failed miserably!" Strange how this is deemed acceptable.

Do people really think of this shit as nothing more than a free bonus? When I buy a car, am I only paying for an engine and a drivetrain? Everything else is a free bonus! Oh, who cares if the upholstry is ripped and the suspension is shot. They weren't part of what I paid for! The manufacturer told me they weren't so good with leather, so the seats are all mangled. Oh well.

Quote:

Do people just skim through my post or something?

Did you?

Quote:

As for lags? Well there's always lag... but it isn't the same kind of lag that you'll get from a certant "fighting" game because of it's nature. So my online experience was "lag-free".

There's a large difference between "lag free" and "no discernable lag", or even "no lag that affects the gameplay as much". But yes, It's great that you're claiming it's a flawed and a perfect implementation in the same sentence.

I know what you're trying to say with it, and I'm not sure if you're just having trouble expressing it, but I get the gist of it. Maybe relatively lag-free, let's go with that.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by David Caruso

I never once said it wouldn't, but just because it very easily could NOT have shipped with online doesn't mean that it's current implementation is acceptable. "He said it was difficult, so it's ok if he failed miserably!" Strange how this is deemed acceptable. ...

The price is just an example because people would think that they paid X amount of money to get their money worth. Online or not, Brawl is worth $50. And as it said before online experience varies depending on everybody connection and distant. Nintendo might as well recalled all copies of US Brawl and re-release a non online version stating, "Due to the nature of an online fighting game, we decided that the rest of the world will never get internet speed here in Japan thus we remove it so you won't experience the horrible lag that you get from your throttled ISP." So Brawl online is acceptable IMO. They can't help it if people subscribe to the low package speed from their ISP or whatever is available to them or their ISP is doing something to their connection or the distant between multiple players (because Brawl can be play up to 4 players instead of your usual/traditional 2 players) or if you have a brother that's leeching all the bandwidth to download his TV shows and movies that he missed while being away. >_>

Originally Posted by David Caruso

... Do people really think of this shit as nothing more than a free bonus? When I buy a car, am I only paying for an engine and a drivetrain? Everything else is a free bonus! Oh, who cares if the upholstry is ripped and the suspension is shot. They weren't part of what I paid for! The manufacturer told me they weren't so good with leather, so the seats are all mangled. Oh well. ...

I'll say this is a bad comparison. A car manufacture will guarantee all parts and all parts total the cost of a car. For a game it's at a set price and as I said before Nintendo stated that Brawl online will be difficult to do. The market world would be a wonderful place if consumer was able to say, "Eh, I don't want the online portion in my game so remove it from my copy and I'll pay $40 for it" or "Hey, the online portion didn't meet my expectation. I want a refund on that part or make it better as my ISP throttled my connection / I subscribe to a low package speed / my brother is taking up all the bandwidth."

Originally Posted by David Caruso

... There's a large difference between "lag free" and "no discernable lag", or even "no lag that affects the gameplay as much". But yes, It's great that you're claiming it's a flawed and a perfect implementation in the same sentence.

I know what you're trying to say with it, and I'm not sure if you're just having trouble expressing it, but I get the gist of it. Maybe relatively lag-free, let's go with that.

Perhaps I didn't word it right but my stand is that when it comes to online gaming, there's never going to be a "lag-free", "no discernable lag" or "no lag that affects the gameplay as much" experience. I keep saying "due to the nature of an online fighting game" because that's the whole point about this. I go to other forum and I keep seeing a post like, "Mario Kart Wii online is lag free even with 12 players worldwide! Why couldn't Nintendo do the same for Brawl?!" People don't know how online gaming works and that any kind of fighting game will experience worst lag than FPS and racing. It all factor depending on the game, your ISP and distant.

I'll say we can go back and forth on this but we will go nowhere with it. I think I said enough so I'm really going to stop here as I feel like everything has been said and done. I hope people enjoy (or not) this wall-of-text. So I'm out (not the game, but about the current posts XP).

How ya doing, buddy?

I don't think I even want to know what the new thread title is about.

Also, regarding Brawl drama currently unfolding. At the very least, we haven't fagged up this thread with "who do you want added in the next smash bros game?" posts yet.

But yes, it's Nintendo, their network sucks, are we really surprised by this? Nintendo doesn't do online. They tried it on the gamecube with one whole game (lol PSO online content) and failed miserably. It is going to take them a while to get this right since they are one whole console generation behind on grasping the online networking concept. Plus, they are nintendo, and for better or for worse, nintendo always does things differently than the competition. So, we get nifty motion controllers, but we get crappy networking.

I bought it to play multi offline with my buddies. Online is just a bonus, when it works. If I want to play games online, I do it on my PC.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?