The Middle East spirals out of control!

Originally Posted by Thoompie

Maybe i'm being a bit doomsday, but WWI and WWII became a world war because the US were helping(intercontinental, to be politically correct :-P). So if the US, and maybe Europe wil have to get in between again if things get outta hand, wouldn't that be a third world war?

WWII involved a fairly large chunk of the world before America were drawn into the conflict. I admit that the attack on Pearl Harbor and the resultant American involvement did escalate the scale of the conflict, not to mention that it provided desperately needed additional allied forces, but I think that the Second World War could justifiably have been called a World War even before America had a stake in it.


The conflict already encompassed most of Europe, and parts of Asia, North Africa, and it should be noted that America had a financial stake in the war for some time before they had any military assets at stake, due the Lend-Lease Act.

Certainly it should be said that American involvment was instrumental, and increased the overall scale of warfare, but I don't know if I'd support the notion that it wasn't a "World War" until they became directly involved. I also feel compelled to note that while the US did indeed help, and greatly so, that was not their primary purpose. They were simply retaliating against an attack on their own troops, and defending their own interests against an agressor. The fact that they got drawn into the war as a whole was something of an unintentional byproduct from the American viewpoint.

I don't feel qualified to comment on the First World War, but I will close by saying that despite this objection, it seems eminently likely to me that the Middle East will be the theater of operations for the next conflict that history will term a "World War".

I find it hard to imagine that there will be the same degree of co-operation and mutual support in a future "World War" as there has been in the past, though.

Originally Posted by NaklsonofNakkl

I hope that we can get this whole Iraq so we are out of the Middle East ASAP, the longer we stay the longer i feel we are just getting into more and more trouble and less and less gain for victory. So help our nation for it

Define "victory", as it pertains to Iraq, please. Whatever the reasons for entering into that conflict, and I'm not about to discuss their validity, the US military hav found themselves a no-win situation. Even if we accept as a basis for discussion that the position taken by the US administration was entirely justified, and that starting this war was an entirely justified thing to to, there's no way to win, and that is in no way the fault of the troops, the commanders, or anyone else.

It wasn't a war that could be won from the start.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Thoompie

Maybe i'm being a bit doomsday, but WWI and WWII became a world war because the US were helping(intercontinental, to be politically correct :-P). So if the US, and maybe Europe wil have to get in between again if things get outta hand, wouldn't that be a third world war?

You have a very poor understanding of World Wars.

How ya doing, buddy?

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Don't wave the troll card in my face Brady, that's beyond lame, as long as i am trying to say something objectively i don't think i qualify as a troll. Shove it back where it came from.

And yet, you still don't want to provide any examples of your experience. Whatever, though, I think people understand who is right here. (heh, might makes right ) Most mods wouldn't be so lenient regarding a spurning of a warning, but whatever, you're just another hothead, no loss.

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You considering Israel to be a soveriegn state, your disregard for its inhuman acts, and refusal to admit that Israel is a terrorist nation.

Well what do you want me to do, go over there and ask them very nicely to stop being such big meanies? I understand that Israel isn't exactly playing Mr. Nice Guy, but then they don't really care. Israel does what it does for the sake of its national defense. If Israel blows up Palestinian caves, it's probably because they had the very reasonable fear of them being used as weapons caches. Why would people even want to live in caves in the first place?

Israel isn't the hottest property on the globe, but I would sooner side with the Israelis than a bunch of wackos that think blowing up civilians will destroy their neighbor, or an organization that carries out assaults on a sovereign nation as a means of garnering political power.

Also, are you implying that Israel isn't a sovereign state?

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Brady i was objecting to your blind-support for Israel, it doesn't seem blind now, but can you really say that 100% of what you or i know is what really happens?

If we go based on that logic, though, nothing we think really matters, and we should just act as if nothing is happening. (this is actually what happens, but for the sake of argument it doesn't hold water)

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how about the Sabra and Shatila massacres?

Which were commited by Christian militias. Though Israel was personally responsible for requesting their involvement, and then doing nothing as the massacre was perpetrated. Of course, Israeli involvement was actually confirmed by an Israeli inquiry, and it was found that Ariel Sharon beared personal responsibility in the massacre, and he lost his job as the minister of defence. Of course, he'd later become Prime Minister despite the inquiry's suggestions.

It's too controversial a subject to debate in this thread, but what we do know is that Israeli troops reported the massacre to their superiors, and were then told not to intervene as they provided logistical support to the Phalangists. We also know, due to investigations by Mossad, that there were no PLO members in Sabra, despite Sharon's claim that there were still 2,000 PLO members in the camp. The need for sending in the Phalangists in the first place. Israelis also kept the refugees from leaving the camps, despite the knowlege that the Phalangists were perpetrating a massacre.

Of course, a lot of this wouldn't have been known in the first place if 300,000 Israelis hadn't demonstrated in Tel-Aviv to begin with.

Israel has definitely been a part of some foul stuff in the past. Though, Israel has always acted from the standpoint of protection against aggression. That still doesn't mean, however, that they are above criticism, even internally.

Interestingly enough, I've learned that there may have been a Syrian involvement in the massacre, if even indirectly. The reason the Israelis invaded Western Beirut in the first place was as a response to the assasination of President Bachir Gemayel by a man who was a member of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, and who claimed to be an agent of Syrian intelligence. In addition to that, Elie Hoboka, who was the commander of the Phalangists that perpetrated the massacre, was reported by Mossad to be maintaining his Syrian contacts, and in fact later openly switched sides to the Syrians.

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So with that in mind what happened is what really matters, regardless of who it happened to. Look more into the history of the area and the conflict. Believe me when i say, a country 'growing' into another country like a tumor is enough reason to consider it a paradise, read into the circumstances that "Israel" has risen in. Read into what they've done, then come back and tell me they are 'reactionaries'.

The Israelis are reactionaries.

Militias like the Haganah would have never existed in the first place had it not been for the Arab riots in 1921 that killed more than a hundred Jews. Arab attacks following World War 2 led to Jewish reprisals and a civil war following British withdrawal. At the founding of Israel, all of its surrounding neighbors attacked it without provocation. While the Israelis gained 10% of the land originally afforded to them, the Jordanians came away with the West Bank, and the Egyptians the Gaza Strip. Egypt nationalized the Suez canal while Nasser expanded his military ambitions and encouraged Fedayeen based in Egypt to attack Israel. In 1967, Egypt expelled peacekeepers from Gaza and cut off shipping at the Straights of Tiran, while they, Jordan, and Syria threatened war with Israel, prompting Israel to pre-emptively attack Egypt, while subsequently repelling the Jordanians and the Syrians, capturing the Sinai, West Bank, and Golan Heights in the 6 Day War. Border skirmishes with the Egyptians and Syrians led to the surprise attack on Israel in Yom-Kippur, and following Israel's success, they got the bomb.

No more Arab-Israeli wars.

Why so much hostility towards the Jews? Number of reasons. Starting in the 19th Century, Jews were buying up lands in Palestine from the Ottomans in order to escape pogroms and as a measure to eventually establish a Jewish state. This led to understandable consternation among Arab palestinians, however, they were never guaranteed their own nation until they assisted the British in helping fight the Ottomans in WW1. Then Britain stabbed Palestinians in the back with the Balfour Declaration, which declared that the Jews would eventually gain their own nation in Palestinian territory.

You claim that Israel was like a growing tumor in another nation, but that nation never existed. It wasn't even intended to be founded until the British made promises to Palestinians that they couldn't keep, knowing full well the land legitimately owned by Zionist organizations.

So ultimately the problem with Israel is that it exists. Palestinians don't think it should, despite its legitimacy, and in the beginning Israel's arab neighbors saw it as an excuse to divide up Palestine between themselves.

The one time Israel acted aggressively was during Operation Suzannah, when the Israelis tried to keep the British in the Suez by starting low-key bombings in Gaza and Egypt. An event that took years for Israel to patch up relations with the US, and gave Egypt the excuse to persecute Egyptian Jews after its failure.

FELIPE NO

Hell, if we consider Isreal a terrorist state, then any nation in a war is one as well. The fact is that the Isreali soldiers are clearly marked that they are soliders, they aren't plainclothed so that they get an advantage.

Honestly it's all about perspective. Like what people said before, "Your freedom fighters are our terrorists." Maybe I haven't heard both sides of the arguement, but I can't see the reason why Palestine or Hezobolah can't recognize Isreal as a nation. Yes, it was made from land given by the British Government, but at that time, it was their land to give. Really, please, someone tell me why Isreal shouldn't exist.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by BlueEdge

Honestly it's all about perspective. Like what people said before, "Your freedom fighters are our terrorists." Maybe I haven't heard both sides of the arguement, but I can't see the reason why Palestine or Hezobolah can't recognize Isreal as a nation. Yes, it was made from land given by the British Government, but at that time, it was their land to give. Really, please, someone tell me why Israel shouldn't exist.

The problem with that is that someone will always question the legitimacy of that claim. I suppose you could say that it belonged to the British by right of conquest, but I'm not sure if I believe that really makes it OK to drive people away from their homes.

The Israelis have a claim to that land that dates back to biblical times, but it has been the subject of constant dispute that makes it hard to say who has the superior claim. Obviously the State of Israel has the superior claim, de jure, but is that the only aspect which you're willing to look at?

I don't support the Palestinian objectives, but I do feel that it is worth at least trying to consider the causes of this present conflict on a deeper level than just saying that the British had every right to do what they did.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Brady you're making much more sense the more you speak. I actually agree with most of your last post. Interesting.

But for now can i state that both us and Israel failed once or twice at war? We've been on and off for long, so no, Egypt persecuted the Jews due to regional stuff, don't tread on this issue, my (second?) grandfather was a judge in the courts that banished the local jews, if you wanna discuss that issue (about egyptian jews) i don't mind, though, i'm pretty well informed about it , so be warned =D.
But i think we should discuss it elsewhere, how about in chat? this is interesting..

Double Post:
Oh and considering that you just said Palestinians were stabbed in the back, and you admit that palestine did exist, Israel DID grow like a tumor in an already existant nation and land.

Now i'm not saying it is a cancerous tumor (forgive the medical anology(sp?) ) i just think that its very existance's legitimacy is disputable because of the awkward way it "poped" into the world.

BUT i as a person know that they weren't being so fiercely objected-to and hated because they existed, no, it's all because of the Aqsa, and no matter how silly that may sound look at the religious agendas (i mean plans, correct me if i used the wrong term) most Zionists have it sure seems they are walking in that direction.

Jews have a dream of the promised land; it's written as : from River Nile to River Furat (Euphrates). (1).
The third temple shall be constructed where the Aqsa mosque stands(2)

Are you familiar with the diggings and tunnels being done under Al Aqsa? Let's just ignore the regional conflicts for a moment and consider how infuriated you would be (if you were religious) if someone was to dig tunnels under the Vatikan in such a manner that when all tunnels are complete, the whole structure would collaps at even a small bomb dropped near?
That's the biggest thing, here's one more, settlements.. I've stood there, 20 metres away while the bastards were dozering down a house while pulling everyone inside to the outside. Now that's the single incident i saw, watch the news and you'll see hundreds more, how would you like having your house mowed down ten minutes after you woke up, right before breakfast? What are they supposed to do, not blow them all up?
I doubt it, considering that one guy who destroyed a whole town with an armoured dozer and everyone here aplauded him (Search for the thread). It's easy to ask people to 'pipe down' when you're sitting on your easy chair typing. Were it the opposite i bet anyone would do alot worse, then some idiots beautifully label them as terrorists and bam, every one on the Internet plays along.. Wow, what horrendous acts of terrorism to fight back.

Now you all know there's a big Zionist lobby in the US, right?
Ok ponder this, points (1) and (2) up there add up with the Iraqi invasion don't they? After all the river's in Iraq. Oh but LOOK! [color=red]It also goes through Syria[/b] and turkey. Wow, consider the threats the US keeps making to Syria (Which remind me very much of Iraq's past)..

Anyone else see a silly connection here?

It would be insanely idiotic to ignore this correlation, it's no proof, i admit, and i hate conspiracy theory, but this fits too well to be just a coincidence.

Now tell me, if you think they're moving along with that plan, wouldn't the Aqsa being in jeopardy shine much more? If jews was promised a home, don't you think they will be given a proper one, given that they were already situated where they wanted to? They want it in full, they want the 'whole deal' if you will. Now in my opinion if this goes on to get more and more suspicious that makes them my enemy, i don't wanna keep saying that they're just defending themselves when all i see is advancement.

I think that makes enough sense for us to be more than doubtful of Israel's real intentions.

Remember what i said about plowing down homes, that's enough reason to retaliate, do you know that Hamas is mostly people who've eaten shit because of Israel, and so's Hezbullah? Did you know that most bombers aren't rerlated to any organization and are just retaliating for such horrors?

I can't say much more, if that doesn't make sense i don't know what will.

Double Post:
More :

People in prisons (The reason the kidnappings were made in the first place) are there for no other reason but to break them before they get any chance to avenge themselves for the humiliation they got. That still makes Israelis the bad guys in my book.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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Now you all know there's a big Zionist lobby in the US, right?

It's more than "big." Most of this country is a part of that lobby in some way...and it usually involves Holocaust Remembrance. But god, that's a whole different topic altogether.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Onyx

It's more than "big." Most of this country is a part of that lobby in some way...and it usually involves Holocaust Remembrance. But god, that's a whole different topic altogether.

Since you're the one who responded to that quote, I figure I might as well ask you. This question isn't loaded in any way, and I don't have anything up my sleeve, so to speak. I just want to know.

What exactly does the Zionist movement want, these days? I was under the impression that the primary objective of said movement had already been achieved... about 50 years ago.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Nile to Furat, soluzar, it still hasn't been, do you see the third temple?
No.
Do you see a country spanning from Nile to Euphrates called Israel?
No.

The goals have yet to be fulfilled. At least as far as Zionists are concerned.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by CryHavoc

The goals have yet to be fulfilled. At least as far as Zionists are concerned.

Like I said, I don't get it. I think I get a slightly clearer picture now, but until your post, I had no idea there was anything more to it than getting back into the "Promised Land", which I understood to be Israel. Hence, I thought it had been done. Sorry for the stupid meme that I just edited out. This isn't the place.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by CryHavoc

Nile to Furat, soluzar, it still hasn't been, do you see the third temple?
No.
Do you see a country spanning from Nile to Euphrates called Israel?
No.

The goals have yet to be fulfilled. At least as far as Zionists are concerned.

And here I was thinking the majority of the population being labeled as "zionists" just want to live and work without having people shoot at them, bomb them, or kidnap their soilders.

FELIPE NO

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Oh and considering that you just said Palestinians were stabbed in the back, and you admit that palestine did exist, Israel DID grow like a tumor in an already existant nation and land.

Palestine exists in the sense that the Romans renamed Judea, Syria Palaestina in an effort to dissasociate the land with Jews following their forced expulsion after the Bar Kochba Revolt. Palestinian national identity didn't even develop until after the 6 Day War, when the Israelis didn't take to calling Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank Israelis, like the Egyptians and the Jordanians insisted they were members of their states before.

People only recognize the existence of Palestine because of the commonality between Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza and their mutual interests.

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Now i'm not saying it is a cancerous tumor (forgive the medical anology(sp?) ) i just think that its very existance's legitimacy is disputable because of the awkward way it "poped" into the world.

Palestine itself popped in very awkwardly as a result of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and Great Britain being granted its administration. If you're referring to the UN's plan for the seperate Jewish and Arab states, then yeah, that is pretty awkward.

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Are you familiar with the diggings and tunnels being done under Al Aqsa? Let's just ignore the regional conflicts for a moment and consider how infuriated you would be (if you were religious) if someone was to dig tunnels under the Vatikan in such a manner that when all tunnels are complete, the whole structure would collaps at even a small bomb dropped near?

Well, first of all I'm not Catholic, so I couldn't really give a shit. I guess Catholics would be kinda upset, sure, but I don't think they'd be as particularly angry about it as Muslims would be about Al Aqsa. Christianity, despite the efforts of the Catholic church, still retains a lot of metaphysical conotations. The church itself isn't so much important as it is the congregation of Christian brothers.

But then, I'm not Catholic, and I don't kiss the remains of dead dudes.

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What are they supposed to do, not blow them all up?

Well, yeah. How's about we not blow ourselves up and take other innocent people with us? Why aren't there suicide bombings of the construction firms that lease out these dozers?

How about this one. Are you ready for it? Why not attack the forced expulsion operations themselves?

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Anyone else see a silly connection here?

Yes. Very silly. You're implying that the US invasion of Iraq is a part of a grand Zionist conspiracy to establish a Jewish State across the central Middle East. What. The. Fuck.

If this is honestly the Honest-To-God Truth, then why haven't we made aggressions towards Egypt? Why did Israel cede the Sinai back to the Egyptians?

That's a doozy. If all you've seen from Israel is advancement, why cede the biggest buffer against Egyptian aggression they could have?

Also, where are you getting this description of the Promised Land?

Also, isn't the tunneling under the Al Aqsa being performed for the sake of archeological curiosity?

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Remember what i said about plowing down homes, that's enough reason to retaliate, do you know that Hamas is mostly people who've eaten shit because of Israel, and so's Hezbullah? Did you know that most bombers aren't rerlated to any organization and are just retaliating for such horrors?

I'm willing to bet that Hamas is populated by dudes with plenty of love lost for Israel, but where do you get the independance of bombers? Wasn't one of the two female suicide bombers coerced into killing herself under threat of an honor killing?

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People in prisons (The reason the kidnappings were made in the first place) are there for no other reason but to break them before they get any chance to avenge themselves for the humiliation they got. That still makes Israelis the bad guys in my book.

And where did you get this?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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Whatever it's like i just want people to consider more sources other than CNN, please.

So are you suggesting we should watch Fox News instead? Keep in mind that CNN is one of the rather liberal networks in the U.S. and I've found their reporting to be neutral, fair and honest.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Very reliable sources, Lama, my cousin is one of them. He's been out for 3 years now, you would never believe the horrors they face in those prisons. But to be fair the treatment inside isn't as bad as the worst countries in the world, the reason he got in there is the main concern, he did nothing except protest with his friends against his friend's house being torn down.
That's why it seems like the only example i state, it's cuz it's one of the most severe things i witnessed personally or was told about directly. It really pisses me off, and really warrants me going crazy because of it.

Silly as my conspiracy theory may sound, you'd be surprised at what the camp david peace treaty contained to support my claims, besides, since when did Israel respect any pact or treaty?

The only reason they respect theirs with us is that Egypt isn't like Syria or Lebanon, we have (Well, had) a much harder and more severe policy when it comes to foriegn aggression, you can say we got touchy because of the multiple take-overs, you should read into the '73 war's complications to get an idea of what can be done with so little supplies/equipment and money, as long as an egyptian's involved. Yes of that i'm very proud.

That's not to say our treaty with Israel's safe, anytime the Israelis need to make a move they'll break it just like that, for now it gives them time to work on other plans, your argument that their negativity towards us is against my claim of a "master plan" is thus negated. Time will tell, them not doing anything is no proof they will not.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Rock

So are you suggesting we should watch Fox News instead? Keep in mind that CNN is one of the rather liberal networks in the U.S. and I've found their reporting to be neutral, fair and honest.

In turn, you should bear in mind that to some, "liberal" is a dirty word in America. A significant percentage of the population are convinced that it means that you're an unpatriotic communist who hates America, was glad about 9/11 and supports terrorism. Even those who take a more moderate right-wing stance may still believe that the "liberal media" are unreliable at best, and dishonest at worst.

I've been told in the past, by an American who seemed to be otherwise quite intelligent that "liberalism is a mental illness". There's something quite utterly obscene about the degree of hatred that each side of the American political spectrum has for their counterpart. It's all the more disturbing when you consider that both American parties represent only a small subset of the total political spectrum. They have come together in recent years, on many issues. How modern American politics would react to a genuine extremist, I have no idea. They would either declare him the new messiah, or burn him at the stake. Very possibly both.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Rock

So are you suggesting we should watch Fox News instead? Keep in mind that CNN is one of the rather liberal networks in the U.S. and I've found their reporting to be neutral, fair and honest.

I don't know, even Al Jazeera is too biased to be trusted.

The best practice would be to view whatever news you're interested in from multiple main-stream sources (With different biases) so you can at least gather whatever's common to all of them and you'd end up with at least a base of (somewhat) certains.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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I don't know, even Al Jazeera is too biased to be trusted. The best practice would be to view whatever news you're interested in from multiple main-stream sources (With different biases) so you can at least gather whatever's common to all of them and you'd end up with at least a base of (somewhat) certains.

I'd watch Al-Jazeera before I watch CNN. And that's the truth. And no, I'm not a terrorist. But watching CNN is like being stuck in a time warp.

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What exactly does the Zionist movement want, these days? I was under the impression that the primary objective of said movement had already been achieved... about 50 years ago.

I would argue that the remains of the Zionist movement has been adopted by right-wing Jews who are trying now to "protect" Israel and Jews everywhere from the so-called "New Anti-Semitism" which of course doesn't exist. If you so call even mention the Holocaust in a dirty light, they'll rip your throat out and assume that you support Nazism, Hezbollah, and Hamas.

Why? Holocaust revenue in this country is extremely profitable and easy to bring in (although ironically, none of it goes to survivors). You can thank Elie Wiesel, the Simon Wiesenthal Foundation, and right-wing politicians. It's all about the money nowadays.

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In turn, you should bear in mind that to some, "liberal" is a dirty word in America. A significant percentage of the population are convinced that it means that you're an unpatriotic communist who hates America, was glad about 9/11 and supports terrorism. Even those who take a more moderate right-wing stance may still believe that the "liberal media" are unreliable at best, and dishonest at worst.

You are so right it hurts. I wouldn't have believed you either if I hadn't read a chapter from Ann Coulter's new book that accuses Liberalism of being its own religion. Craziest shit I've ever read.

I was speaking idiomatically.

The part about the Holocaust is very true.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Am I still the only one who thinks the Zionist conspiracy working through the United States is crazy as fuck?

FELIPE NO

Yes Brady, read about the Zionist lobby and you will see it's very well plausible.

Look at the contradictions : Most of the US officials support bombing Lebanon and Hillary Skank Clinton announced a lame "We will stick by Israel" Sure who the hell is she to count, but that reflects a politically biased view from a country that supposedly keeps urging others like Hamas and Iran to "Control themselves" when stuff much more outrageous is done against them.

Not just the 'conspiracy' Bradylama, the sheer stupidity of weighing with two scales that occurs all the time. Do you think it's the free US's fault, or the politicians with strong jewish and/or Zionist biases?

Furthermore, who is the *ahem* that removed my Signature? It was 46 KB, i shrunk it, now what's the problem??

Edit : 48 KB, that is, what the hell, that's still under 50 KB...

Edited again for niceness's sake.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

People haven't been "doing" much to Iran. For the past decade it's mostly been Iran doing things to others.

I'm not denying that there is a pro-Israeli lobby in the US, but the idea that the United States invaded Iraq due to an unfounded expansionist agenda by Zionist hardliners is laughable. It discounts the involvement of a myriad of other interests, including huge Arab Oil lobbies, oil interests foreign and domestic, not to mention the oil interests of our President and his cronies, as well as the overall strategic position of Iraq in the War on Terror, the protection of the American Petrodollar against the Euro, and the preservation of Middle Eastern regimes that are at least cordial when it comes to relations with the United States.

I don't buy for a second that it's a means for Israel to expand to the Euphrates, because doing so is logistically and politically impossible for Israel to accomplish. Even assuming that you're right, and that Israeli policy is dictated by expansionistic Zionists, it'd be impossible to maintain an Israeli force across the desert and into western Iraq without first neutralizing Israel's immediate neighbors. Even then, such a huge expansion would not only raise the wrath of the entirety of the Arab League, but invite intervention by an international body, and cause opinion of Israel in the US to drop like a stone, if not cause US intervention against Israel.

Gotta watch those Israelis, though. Just because it doesn't look like they're making any overtures towards major territorial expansion and express no interest in doing so doesn't mean they couldn't be secretly plotting to accomplish the impossible!

It's insane. Absolutely insane.

It's also not hard for pro-Israeli interests to drum up support for Israel when they remain a reactionary force in the region. Discounting who "started it," Israel hasn't initiated violent conflict in decades. At the worst, Israel's invasion of Lebanon is akin to the US's Vietnam and Iraq, and the USSR's Afghanistan. The invasion was made under false pretenses (the attempted assasination of an Israeli diplomat was performed by a Palestinian terrorist unaffiliated with the PLO and reports of Palestinian aggression from Lebanon the year before the invasion were grossly exaggerated by the Likud) which while serving in the immediate terms the eradication of the PLO as an effective fighting force, only gave rise to new enemies in the form of Hezbollah, and a domination of Lebanese society by the Syrians that would cripple stability in Lebanon for a decade.

You can say that Israel creates a lot of it's own problems, and you'd be absolutely right, but the only organizations with any legitimacy for aggression against Israel are Palestinian. Nations like Syria and Iran have no right to use Palestine as an excuse to further their own regional agendas, megalomaniacs like Bin Laden have no real ties to Palestine, or even an interest in their freedom, and Hezbollah hasn't had any reason to maintain aggression towards Israel since they withdrew across the Blue Line in 2000.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

You can say that Israel creates a lot of it's own problems, and you'd be absolutely right, but the only organizations with any legitimacy for aggression against Israel are Palestinian. Nations like Syria and Iran have no right to use Palestine as an excuse to further their own regional agendas

I have to disagree with only Palestinian organizations having any legitimacy for aggression against Israel. Syria has its own reasons, since Israel still occupies Syrian territory in the Golan Heights.

Iran presently lacks truly legitimate reasons of its own, though.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'd like to think that Bin Laden is using a Che Guevara school of thought when he acted upon being angered by the situation in Israel and how the US supports her no matter what. I still think that coming from the view of "Every war must have its casualties" he wasn't so bad doing what he did afterall. If only for the sake of those whose lives were crushed by Israel's inhuman acts.
You might have a good background about Guevara's principles so review that before you overrule this possibility.


I see that somehow your stance has shifted a bit, at least from what i originally thought you were thinking, which is a good thing because open-mindedness is always a plus.

Don't consider the Nile to Euphrates thing impossible. You said yourself it would provoke many a party, too many for a clean accomplishment, and here my friend is where Israelis (at least dedicated ones) are very good.
The real challenge is for them to avoid all those obstacles and 'landmines' if you will, and still reach whatever goal they want.
The fact that they grow closer to it by such acts as the Iraq war without them being directly the reason is a good thing in that respect. No fingers pointed, (barely-)enough reasons to warrant war and the result would still be an easier target (Iraqi land). This sounds all crazy but you should read into Zionist views to make sure of the "Nile to Euphrates" part. It's going too conveniently and the Arabs are the only ones who keep shouting conspiracy, why? Because we read into Zionist beliefs, or rather; Jewish beliefs. It's crazy, but it's what they want, and it's all going too conveniently to ignore. They will take their time with it, but never forget about it. Even if they didn't start the war, who can underestimate the power of suggestion? It's enough for a moron like Bush that one would keep whispering "they'll get america with WMDs" for him to go nuts and shout "OMG they WILL, i must destroy Iraq!".
He might be a cog in that wheel without even knowing, this only serves to make it a bit closer to ponder that's all.

I said MIGHT, note that. After all, what do i know? I'm just a random guy online, i'm serious, there might be millions of variables involved that i don't know about, and there probably is.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Devo

Despite Israel encroaching on Palestinian land, building walls and forcing long time residents into ghettos?

How does anything that the Israelis do to the Palestinians threaten Iran?

Originally Posted by CryHavoc

Don't consider the Nile to Euphrates thing impossible. You said yourself it would provoke many a party, too many for a clean accomplishment, and here my friend is where Israelis (at least dedicated ones) are very good.

The Israelis can be as good as they want at it, but the task you're saying is possible isn't. They simply don't have the manpower needed (even before the casualties they'd suffer) to take everything from the Nile to the Euphrates without turning it into glass first.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Nah, not everything needs manpower, Styphon. You'd be surprised at what people would do to keep their lives. A simple weapon advantage could easily make that possible, let alone the fact that it won't be just Israel's occupants doing the fighting.

Besides religious stuff is always rediculously impossible, yet some idiots will fight against all odds to accomplish them (I love the word "idiots", fits everywhere) ..

I was speaking idiomatically.