The Middle East spirals out of control!

Originally Posted by NP

Remember, might indeed does make right.

Were all the hippies and Cronkite right, and the US military wrong, on Vietnam? What about that time Castro got the better of the US government? You're ideology's black and white so neither of these should be too tough of a pigeonhole.

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Israel takes better care of Palestinian refuges than Palestine would if the role situations were reversed.

I'm talking about everyday living standards, not who does incarceration better. Militant ideological twists of Islam are proselytised by one generation of Palestinians onto younger generations in order that they fight Dad's war. You can only cut if off generationally, and one side is infinitely more equipped to achieve that than the other.

But of course we can look at independent states as corporations and go 'why should Israel, Inc. put charity before profitability?' Giving Palestinians a future IS Israeli profit. In fact it's the best security initiative Israel could ever hope to implement.

Has Israel and/or the Atlantic Community (I don't like 'International') even given Hamas an incentive worth the bother, as in something positive? Offer to them that they'll be recognised as a proper government and removed from the terrorist list if they can capture the loyalty of all the factions and keep them together, if they can legitimate themselves by independent criteria. Palestine has to compromise first, but Israel has to compromise the most if anyone will ever see the remotest semblance of this occuring.

Triggering a proper Palestinian infrastructure also means that Syria and Iran lose their proxies, or at least a significant amount of authority.

Originally Posted by Brady

Not in the Middle East. If Iran attempts to cut off the world's oil because of Israeli escalation, then the global community would be behind us in ending an Iranian blockade. People the world over would be clamoring for the resignation of President Ahmedinejad.

Aren't you part of the camp that said his government's likely working toward the bomb last time? Surely he's cluey enough to know what comes after what.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Which is why the idea of Iran actually doing anything in response to Israeli aggression is laughable. They can't reach Syria with a US controlled Iraq. They couldn't reach Syria before with a Saddam controlled Iraq. If they launched missiles into Israel, it'd have to go over Iraqi airspace. If they attack shipping in the Gulf with their Silkworms, then they've started a war with the US and everybody that likes oil.

I'm not saying Ahmedinejad is stupid, I'm saying that it's dumb to think that Iran would actually make good on their threats.

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Were all the hippies and Cronkite right, and the US military wrong, on Vietnam? What about that time Castro got the better of the US government? You're ideology's black and white so neither of these should be too tough of a pigeonhole.

Might isn't simply measured in physical force. All political interests have to have a certain amount of clout behind them to get anywhere, and in the case of Vietnam, the anti-war crowd had gained a greater political force than the warhawks.

Might makes right, even in politics.

Also, Cal, the US and the UN did offer to recognize Hamas as the ruling party in Palestine if they gave up their goal of eradicating the state of Israel.

The Canadian deaths are tragic. This is probably the best time for the US to pressure Israel to back off and delegitimize Hezbollah. Now is the best time to send the message to the Palestinians: "Look where Hezbollah has gotten you. They've dragged you into a war that you cannot win and for what?"

The Lebanese government would be willing to accept anything right now. If the IDF and the Lebanese military threatened joint operations against Hezbollah how long would they remain armed?

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your argument however, brady, is not logical in any way.

In what way? What is my argument?

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How can one give you an example of the everyday disregard of arab rights in israel, wether they are Palestinian or Israeli?

Well I dunno Mr. Knowitall, you claim to be there, apparently you should be the fucking authority on the subject.

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It happens, take my word for it.

You're some guy on the internet. Why should I take your word for it? So far you've given me no reason to believe that you've even set foot in the Middle East. You make vague statements about stuff that's happening over there, without providing any examples of it. You speak in generalities with no specific umph behind your statements other than the baseless claim that you've been there, we should take your word for it.

Fuck your experience. I don't care if the IDF drove a Merkava through your house. You've given us no reason to believe you've been there.

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Obviously you're implying that Israel is committing acts of terrorism.

Of course they're committing acts of terror. Terror is a necessary tool in the waging of any war. What makes the IDF different from Hezbollah, is that the IDF is considered the military branch of a recognized nation, and its actions are then legitimized in a diplomatic environment. Whether or not people agree with those actions is a part of diplomacy.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Brady you idiot, i'm egyptian and i live in egypt, check my posting ips..

And yes i have been there multiple times, you'll just have to take my word for it.

Besides, how the hell can i provide any so-called "umph" when you question my credibility?
Remember if i mention a single incident/experience it can be labeled as an individual act and so i'd have to mention more and more, we're not going to make any situation changing decisions here so the importance of providing THAT solid of an argument isn't justified. Take my word for it or turn your head away and shut up. I won't die if you don't believe me, besides, i have no reason to lie as i am unaffected by either case "winning".

And before you get this into religion i'm an Aethiest, so i'm as neutral as they come.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Alexander Downer

This is a murderous, bloody, intolerant, racist organization

My friendly foreign minister said this about Al-Queda a while backa nd I couldn't help but think how much it applies to Israel too.

I'm not going to bother joining this debate though as Brady, Night Pheonix, Robo Jesus, Lord Styphon and the rest of the nationalist crowd is just running the "what's right for Israel is right for America is right for me" line. There's no point in trying to show these guys an ethical or emotional standpoint on the issue because they all left their integrity along with their moral fibre in the bin before entering.

Oh and a mate of mine is currently stranded in Lebanon. Bombing roads and airports can fuck right off.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by RABicle

I'm not going to bother joining this debate though as Brady, Night Pheonix, Robo Jesus, Lord Styphon and the rest of the nationalist crowd is just running the "what's right for Israel is right for America is right for me" line. There's no point in trying to show these guys an ethical or emotional standpoint on the issue because they all left their integrity along with their moral fibre in the bin before entering.

If you're not going to join in the debate, why bother posting?

Also, could you please remind me where I took the "what's right for Israel is right for American is right for me line", as you put it? Looking over the four posts I made in this thread, I can't find it. I can only assume my eyes are going, and that I'm making posts expressing more support for Israel than I usually show in dicussions about Israel.

You seem to have only posted in this thread to not read what has been said, tell us that you're not going to participate in the debate, and launch unprovoked flames against me and others.

Here, have an official warning.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Yeah, I'd also like to know where I was riding Israel's nutsack.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Hell, I could see this going into WWIII. Everyone's totally on edge. But really, what should Isreal have done when their troops were captured? Negotiated? The way I see it is, if they do that, then they're just going to keep on kidnapping people.
Why are those palestinians in the jails anyways?

Edit: I just remembered this point I heard:
Is it that Lebannon doesn't want to disarm Hezbolah (sorry for my spelling) or is it that they aren't able to?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Probably both.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by RABicle

I'm not going to bother joining this debate though as Brady, Night Pheonix, Robo Jesus, Lord Styphon and the rest of the nationalist crowd is just running the "what's right for Israel is right for America is right for me" line. There's no point in trying to show these guys an ethical or emotional standpoint on the issue because they all left their integrity along with their moral fibre in the bin before entering.

I don't know if I'd go that far, but I am disturbed by the amount of support shown for the concept of "might makes right". I'm still waiting for anyone to explain to me how it is that armed robbers aren't entirely justified by this philosophy. Oh wait, is it because the Police have a greater might? I get it now. The armed robber is right, his victim is wrong, but the police are MORE right.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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Brady you idiot, i'm egyptian and i live in egypt, check my posting ips..

I don't care where you live. You still don't get the fact that you haven't given us anything better to go off of other than saying you having been there.

I also don't care what you think about whether or not I believe you. Who are you to expect us to just take your word for you? If you want people to take your word for it you need them to trust you, and in case you haven't noticed, the internet is a collective of strangers. I don't know anything about you other than you live in Egypt and get boners for Thor, and I don't know anything about your moral fibre or credibility.

Taking your word for it is not enough.

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Remember if i mention a single incident/experience it can be labeled as an individual act and so i'd have to mention more and more, we're not going to make any situation changing decisions here so the importance of providing THAT solid of an argument isn't justified.

Though, it is justified if you want people to believe you. I'm not questioning what goes on in Palestine, though what you're not getting is that I'm asking you about Arab Israelis.

I also don't give a shit if you're Aetheist or worship Osiris. You're just some guy on the internet.

I'd still like to know what's so illogical about my argument, please.

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I'm not going to bother joining this debate though as Brady, Night Pheonix, Robo Jesus, Lord Styphon and the rest of the nationalist crowd is just running the "what's right for Israel is right for America is right for me" line.

Israel is no friend of the US. For certain we'd probably be a lot better off in the region without a "Zionist body" in the Middle East. The Israelis have the bomb, though, so supporting them becomes a necessity even in a post-Cold War environment. If the nation of Israel is threatened with destruction you think they're going to just sit on those nukes?

Fuck it, though, if you can't take in the big picture of this situation, or come up with a better argument to delegitimize Israel's aggression other than your mate is stuck in Lebanon.

Styphon's already said it, but allow me to put some more emphasis on it. If you think you can come into Palace threads and troll them, you can fuck off. Clearly us "nationalists" are so Godawful, why do you even post here?

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The armed robber is right, his victim is wrong, but the police are MORE right.

The thief was never right to begin with, because the government says he's wrong. Since the thief has no chance of defying the government, then the government defaults as being in the right.

You don't have to like Might Makes Right, it's a fact.

I was speaking idiomatically.

A government that openly dictates in its charter that it is "by the people, for the people" needs the support of its citizens in order to carry out the business of might makes right. We went to war and had a majority in favor of it. We went to war again, and people balked. The president's approval ratings are in the shitter right now because he doesn't have the agreement of his populace.

Might makes right works only as long as the people will tolerate it. French revolution, anyone?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

This is because the people are the ones which dictate what is right. The citizens are the ones that hold most of the cards in a democratic society. The principle hasn't changed, it just means that voters acting as a collective are mightier than their elected representatives.

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Yes, you're right, that's true for the French Revolution, but I wonder if the same rules apply when there's a bureaucracy that needs be met before action can be taken. An election, for example, could be viewed as might makes right, or it could be seen as having to bow to the needs of an institution, rather than the people.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Hey dudes,

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http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...2154&t=TS_Home
Israel offers ceasefire terms
Earlier, troops raid inside Lebanon
Jul. 17, 2006. 12:14 PM
MATT MOORE
ASSOCIATED PRESS


JERUSALEM — Israel would agree to a ceasefire in its six-day-old offensive against Lebanon if Hezbollah guerrillas agreed to withdraw from border area and release two captured Israeli soldiers, a senior official said Monday.
The official, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had conveyed Israel’s position to Italy’s prime minister, who is attempting to broker a ceasefire deal.

Israel had previously demanded the full dismantling of Hezbollah as a condition for ending hostilities.

However, the senior official said Israel would agree to Hezbollah merely leaving the border area — with the Lebanese army taking its place.

Earlier today, Israeli ground troops entered southern Lebanon to attack Hezbollah bases on the border, but they rapidly returned to Israel after conducting their military operations, officials said.

Israel’s six-day-old offensive against Hezbollah following the capture of two Israeli soldiers has been primarily an aerial campaign, but government spokesman, Asaf Shariv, said the Israeli army chief of staff confirmed that ground troops had gone into Lebanon, if only briefly.
A military official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the information, said that a small group of Israeli troops had crossed into Lebanon overnight to attack a Hezbollah position, but then returned to Israel.

“There was a small operation in a very limited area overnight,” the official said. “That is over.’’

Israel has been reluctant to send ground troops into southern Lebanon, an area that officials say has been heavily mined by Hezbollah and could lead to many Israeli casualties.

Israel would also want to quickly withdraw from the area, rather than get involved in a prolonged conflict like its 18-year occupation of southern Lebanon that ended in May 2000. The bloody nature of the fighting at the that time and the high number of casualties finally forced the government to cave into public pressure to withdraw from southern Lebanon and end the contentious occupation.

Hopefully this may cool things down, but I can also see this being outright rejected.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Give me an example of Arab Israelis that have been denied their rights afforded to them by the Israeli constitution.

Sure. Let’s argue the facts. This is taken from the Basic Laws of Israel (there is no Israeli constitution as of yet) from the Human Dignity and Liberty section:

Section 3 Protection of property
There shall be no violation of the property of a person.

I got this from B’Tselem. To sum it up for you, the Israelis have been sealing off caves that Palestinians have been living in for hundreds of years. They say its for “imperative military needs,” (as always)… not because these Palestinians there are suspected terrorists. The Israelis have stolen sheep, threatened settlers, injured innocents, and worst of all, prevented access to the farmer’s fields, which is their livelihood. Feel free to read the report. I’ve linked you to a summary but the full 84-page report is available too. I can produce more incidents if you wish, as there are plenty of them.

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International Laws have nothing to do with rights violations in an Apartheid-esque government, because Apartheid, in case you've forgotten, was a government which oppressed its own nationals.

By “nationals,” you aren’t referring to Afrikaners, are you? Please briefly explain yourself some more, and also explain why any member of the United Nations doesn’t have to adhere to its laws.

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Israel was in Lebanon starting in 1978, which is a 4 year difference between the Israeli presence and the founding of Hezbollah. Nevermind either, that when the Civil War ended, Israel released several of their detainees after militias dissolved themselves. The only Civil War militia that hasn't been disolved is the one belonging to Hezbollah, and the prisoners Israel continues to detain are members of that organization.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: if it weren’t for Israel’s invading Lebanon, Hezbollah wouldn’t be what it is today. You are correct on the 4 year difference, and I’ll admit, I was incorrect on my facts. But in regards to the Lebanese prisoners, how can you prove that Israel is only holding members of Hezbollah? Keep in mind that before this current crisis started, the Israelis were kidnapping shepherds and farmers in Lebanon. It’s like asking the U.S. government to prove that every person who goes into a Black Ops prison is a suspected insurgency member.

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On the other hand, Israel is not deliberately targetting civilians with their attacks. They don't strap bombs to themselves and blow up buses and shopping malls. That is clear cut terrorism.

Let me ask you this: was Israel targeting Hezbollah members when they attacked the Rafik Hariri airport? Was there as a Hezbollah meeting somewhere on the roads between Beirut and Syria when Israel destroyed them? Airports and roads are strategic targets, but they are also civilian targets, as are residential districts. The difference between Israel and Hezbollah is that Israel has no choice but to attack civilian targets, because Hezbollah is not a visible entity. Every action on both side (IDF and Hezbollah) is in fact very deliberate.

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It's not even CLOSE the ratio of restraint exercised by Israel versus it's relative military might. They ARE dropping leaflets warning of impending attack zones. Think Hamas has that courtesy? Hezbollah? You think if Hezbollah had a nuke, they wouldn't of used it on Israel already and be picky of military targets?
Thank you.

Wow, you completely missed the point. Look at the number of civilians that have been killed by Israelis compared to those killed by Palestinians. “Restraint” included. Thank you.

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I can sum that entire debate in one question.
Would you rather be an arab living in Israel or be a jew living in Palestine?
Thank you.

You didn’t sum anything up at all. And if you want to find the honest answer to your question, all you have to do is check the human rights organizations. You’ll find that your chances of survival are much higher if you’re an Jew living in Palestine. You can argue, but let’s at least argue the facts.

And I have another topic that I’d like to bring up: much of the shells and artillery being used has American names on it. How do you think that’s going to affect the U.S. and innocent Lebanese in the future when yet another organization against Israel and the United States forms in Lebanon? I’d like to hear your guys’ takes on this.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

If it is rejected, though, then it will be Hezbollah that has decided to extend hostilities.

Would the Lebanese be so willing to live with them then when Hezbollah had a chance to end the killing? If Hezbollah accepts, though, they'll be isolated inside Lebanon in the southeast. If they don't accept, they risk losing support, and if they do, then they'll become marginalised as a regional power.


I don't think you're getting it, Onyx. I'm not asking you about Palestinians, I'm asking about Arab Israelis. If Palestinians were Israelis, then it sort of delegitimizes their claim to independence, doesn't it?

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By “nationals,” you aren’t referring to Afrikaners, are you? Please briefly explain yourself some more, and also explain why any member of the United Nations doesn’t have to adhere to its laws.

Afrikaners were technically nationals, sure, in the sense that they were Dutch descendants that held the power in South Africa. I'm talking about the indigenous peoples of South Africa. The ones that felt the stamp of Apartheid's boot. I suppose in a sense, the blacks could've been seen as non-nationals from an Afrikaner perspective, since South Africa is a Western construct as opposed to an African born national body.

It's pretty complicated, now that I think about it.

UN members don't actually have to follow its laws because the UN doesn't really pass laws. It passes resolutions. The UN functions on the basis of primitive law and the whims of the Security Council. Member states don't have to follow resolutions if the Security council can't agree to enforce them. So long as you have one friend on the security council (in Israel's case, the US, and NK's China and Russia) who can cast a vetoe, then you're pretty much in the clear. What's even more hilarious, is that if you're a member of the security council, then you can simply vetoe any measure of enforcing a resolution upon your state.

It's a charming organization, sure, but when UN interests don't meet those of a single Security Council member, the whole process becomes meaningless.

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But in regards to the Lebanese prisoners, how can you prove that Israel is only holding members of Hezbollah?

Quite simply, I can't. It was a statement made based on conjecture, and was really a stab in the dark.

I can tell you, though, that considering the nature of reward incentives for locals turning in "terrorists" there's going to be a large number of innocent men in our Black Ops prisons. I can't really comment on Israel's detainees, though.

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The difference between Israel and Hezbollah is that Israel has no choice but to attack civilian targets, because Hezbollah is not a visible entity. Every action on both side (IDF and Hezbollah) is in fact very deliberate.

The importance then, becomes intent. Like you said, Israel pretty much has to target civilian districts because Hezbollah isn't a standing army. It's seriously doubtful that the IDF intended to kill those Canadians, for instance.

Israel does lack any appreciable amount of restraint, short of a ground invasion. Dropping leaflets isn't a forewarning so much as the IDF is telling Lebanese "Your lives or your livelihoods." A lot of Lebanese probably think they have no choice but to stay with their possessions. Even if they do live in the basement of a Hezbollah broadcasting station.

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And I have another topic that I’d like to bring up: much of the shells and artillery being used has American names on it. How do you think that’s going to affect the U.S. and innocent Lebanese in the future when yet another organization against Israel and the United States forms in Lebanon? I’d like to hear your guys’ takes on this.

It won't make much of a difference. Hezbollah has already been anti-American. It was bad enough that the international community got itself involved in the civil war back in the 80's.

If Israel doesn't present a threat to Lebanon, though, there won't even be a need for militias. Hezbollah was founded, after all, when Israel's second occupation became more permanent in 1982. Israel's reluctance to send ground troops into Lebanon probably reflects a policy of delegitimizing the need for militias to protect Lebanese lands from Israeli aggression.

Like I said before, Israel needs to try and delegitimize the need for Hezbollah in Lebanon. This offer of a cease-fire is a great step in that direction. Now Israel and the US need to start making inroads with the Lebanese government towards moving against Hezbollah jointly.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Like I said before, Israel needs to try and delegitimize the need for Hezbollah in Lebanon. This offer of a cease-fire is a great step in that direction. Now Israel and the US need to start making inroads with the Lebanese government towards moving against Hezbollah jointly.

Is that going to really happen though? If Lebanon has been inactive against Hezbollah due to fear, what are the chances of that changing? Oh, Israel's army moving into Lebanon scares the fuck out of them, of that I have no doubt. What I doubt is whether they fear Israel more than Hezbollah, and whether or not they're going to do anything when they have a history of doing nothing, and hoping for the best outcome.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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I don't think you're getting it, Onyx. I'm not asking you about Palestinians, I'm asking about Arab Israelis. If Palestinians were Israelis, then it sort of delegitimizes their claim to independence, doesn't it?

Arab-Israelis tend to be Palestinians, though. Not in nationality but by genetics. And much the same, Arab-Israelis do not have the same rights that Israelis do. If they did, then Palestinians who were kicked from their homes in 1947 could apply for citizenship in Israel. They can do so only if they are Jewish, which the majority of Palestinians are not.

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Afrikaners were technically nationals, sure, in the sense that they were Dutch descendants that held the power in South Africa. I'm talking about the indigenous peoples of South Africa. The ones that felt the stamp of Apartheid's boot. I suppose in a sense, the blacks could've been seen as non-nationals from an Afrikaner perspective, since South Africa is a Western construct as opposed to an African born national body.

And again, blacks in South Africa did not have the same rights as whites. We all know that. The distinction you are trying to make doesn’t really exist, as the original “mandate” of Palestine was a Western construct as well. If anything, that makes them more similar than different.

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UN members don't actually have to follow its laws because the UN doesn't really pass laws. It passes resolutions. The UN functions on the basis of primitive law and the whims of the Security Council. Member states don't have to follow resolutions if the Security council can't agree to enforce them. So long as you have one friend on the security council (in Israel's case, the US, and NK's China and Russia) who can cast a vetoe, then you're pretty much in the clear. What's even more hilarious, is that if you're a member of the security council, then you can simply vetoe any measure of enforcing a resolution upon your state.

It's a charming organization, sure, but when UN interests don't meet those of a single Security Council member, the whole process becomes meaningless.

Israel doesn’t have to follow international resolutions, but the U.N. does also try to enforce the Geneva Conventions as well, which are international law. And it’s no secret even to the U.N. that Israel has violated the conventions many times. Whether or not the U.N. is a circus is certainly important, but that’s whole other topic altogether. Despite how ridiculous the organization can be, its laws have to be followed, especially if its member countries agree to them.

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Quite simply, I can't. It was a statement made based on conjecture, and was really a stab in the dark.

I can tell you, though, that considering the nature of reward incentives for locals turning in "terrorists" there's going to be a large number of innocent men in our Black Ops prisons. I can't really comment on Israel's detainees, though.

Okay, then we can agree that it is “possible” that some Lebanese prisoners in Israeli prisons aren’t affiliated with Hezbollah at all, but civilians instead?

And I read that Israeli troops have already entered Lebanon today.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Let's put it this way. Israel has killed ten times as many Lebanese as Hezbollah have killed Israelis. Israel is tearing up the Lebanese infrastructure. Beirut should have plenty to fear from Israel.

Alternatively, going to war with Hezbollah risks another civil war and Syrian intervention. Though, if the Israelis and Lebanese military can work together to drive Hezbollah out of southern Lebanon, Syria can't intervene, and the likelihood of a civil war springing up becomes severely reduced so long as Israeli troops stay south of the border while providing air support.

US support will be key, though. If the US can help send arms to the Lebanese, then their effectiveness becomes increased considerably, and the US's position regarding Lebanon is no longer questionable.

The question comes in, though, on wether that hardware would be for lease or on loan. Perhaps we could send an expeditionary force?

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Okay, then we can agree that it is “possible” that some Lebanese prisoners in Israeli prisons aren’t affiliated with Hezbollah at all, but civilians instead?

And I read that Israeli troops have already entered Lebanon today.

Sure, it's entirely possible that the Israelis are holding civilians.

As for Israeli troops in Lebanon, didn't they go across the border to attack Hezbollan positions before going right back across, or is this a full-blown invasion that I haven't heard about?

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Despite how ridiculous the organization can be, its laws have to be followed, especially if its member countries agree to them.

That's just the thing, though. It's laws don't have to be followed. There's no real definite enforcement of the laws, they only apply to the losers. It's not like Civilization or Alpha Centauri where you can't trade anymore if you're kicked out of the UN.

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And again, blacks in South Africa did not have the same rights as whites. We all know that. The distinction you are trying to make doesn’t really exist, as the original “mandate” of Palestine was a Western construct as well. If anything, that makes them more similar than different.

Kind of. There wasn't a seperate state that was to be created inside South Africa. Black South Africans were South African all the same.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Bradylama continues to show useless contradicting arguments, are you supporting Israel's aggression or not? Are you supporting Israel as a political body or not? Do you know anything about what goes on there beside what you see in ignorant ol' CNN? or Fox news?
Before you ask for us to negate your statements and back up our negation provide anything that validates them. For all anyone knows media is very controllable (I'm not considering conspiracy theories here, just think of someone who runs of infront of a camera holding his eyes and screaming, i bet he's gonna get more sympathy than the guy who hit him, regardless of what made him hit him in the first place, which could be anything the "eye-holder" has done). In that respect i certainly am much more credible by the sheer one-dimensioned advantage of proximity. Let alone personal experience.

I do worship Osiris, stfu.. How come you didn't get the point, why did i say it, Brady? Ask yourself that and answer intelligently.

FELIPE NO

You said it because you thought I'd assume that you'd have a religious bias against Israel being a Muslim. I don't care if you're Muslim. Hell, your proximity to the region only serves to give you bias. Or did you not think that one through?

How much do you know about this that hasn't been presented to you through Arab media?

I can ask you all of these same questions, and what can you do? You still haven't provided any examples of your experience. That implies to me that you don't actually have any experience, and don't want to be exposed as a liar, and a troll.

I support Israel's actions, though I think they could go about doing this better if they started backing off and engaging with the Lebanese diplomatically, which may just be the case.

Israel can't act with restraint, because they can't help but attack civilian targets if they want to fight Hezbollah, which they have to. The most important measure of restraint they've practiced has been keeping their troops on the other side of the border, which is very commendable, and implies a desire to avoid another Hezbollah, or increase support for Hezbollah.

Also, please tell me which of my statements need proving, and what it is about my argument that lacks logic.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Edit : Broswer problems, i posted the same shit again here

Double Post:
Don't wave the troll card in my face Brady, that's beyond lame, as long as i am trying to say something objectively i don't think i qualify as a troll. Shove it back where it came from.

Ok here's what lacks logic in my opinion: You considering Israel to be a soveriegn state, your disregard for its inhuman acts, and refusal to admit that Israel is a terrorist nation.

The proximity thing surely does suggest bias on my part, i can only say that it's not there, but i admit i didn't think of it in that way.

Brady i was objecting to your blind-support for Israel, it doesn't seem blind now, but can you really say that 100% of what you or i know is what really happens?
Fuck my experience there, for all anyone knows i'm just another individual, how about the Sabra and Shatila massacres? How about more of the same calibur? Those were totally uncalled for and believe me they happened. So i weasled out of stating what i saw and know, there are reasons i'd rather not dive into that well of memories, my mention of them existing was to say that i speak out of some experience not that i will use them as proof, since even if i did, how can anyone know i'm not making it up?
So with that in mind what happened is what really matters, regardless of who it happened to. Look more into the history of the area and the conflict. Believe me when i say, a country 'growing' into another country like a tumor is enough reason to consider it a paradise, read into the circumstances that "Israel" has risen in. Read into what they've done, then come back and tell me they are 'reactionaries'.

What happened is what matters, not what you or i say, and if you look closely into it you'll discover alot of stuff you didn't know. I don't know a lot of trustworthy resources you can find online, how about reading into what the europeans in Palestine write, those weren't biased before they came into Israel and they have alot to say now.

Whatever it's like i just want people to consider more sources other than CNN, please.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Brady, from what I read it was hard to discern whether or not it they returned or if it was full-blown, as it was breaking news on Democracy Now. And aside from the mind-numbing reports from CNN and and CBS, I don't know much else. But I suspect we'll find out a lot more tomorrow.

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What happened is what matters, not what you or i say, and if you look closely into it you'll discover alot of stuff you didn't know. I don't know a lot of trustworthy resources you can find online, how about reading into what the europeans in Palestine write, those weren't biased before they came into Israel and they have alot to say now.

As far as online sources, human rights organizations like B'Tselem and Amnesty International are good places to start. Their publications are listed on the website. But you probably know that considering you live in the region, anyways. Noam Chomsky, Alexander Cockburn and Norman G. Finkelstein aren't bad writers on the topic, either.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Maybe i'm being a bit doomsday, but WWI and WWII became a world war because the US were helping(intercontinental, to be politically correct :-P). So if the US, and maybe Europe wil have to get in between again if things get outta hand, wouldn't that be a third world war?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I hope that we can get this whole Iraq so we are out of the Middle East ASAP, the longer we stay the longer i feel we are just getting into more and more trouble and less and less gain for victory. So help our nation for it

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?