[General Discussion] Games you consider "Perfect"?

Originally Posted by Elixir

You mean the PS1 games? I still haven't played Lunar since the Sega CD. I'm missing out.

o fuk. Yeah, their PS1 versions. As an oldschool Lunar fan, I can tell you that they do them justice. Although they do kinda change Ghaleon in SSSC...

Spoiler:

Instead of being berserk over Dyne being "killed" supposedly, he's just evil. Ehh well.

Originally Posted by Megavolt

I didn't mean to attack you. Only to respond to the statement about the story falling apart. It's always too vague for me to accept as a justification for dismissing that entire portion of the game as sour. The same goes for the "Kefka has no motivation and therefore he sucks as a villain" position. Preference is another matter and I certainly won't debate that. I just wanted to present a perspective in which the World of Ruin is ideal so as to show that things aren't so cut and dry.

Still, the game isn't nearly as intriguing for me once the world goes kaboom =( The first half is an insanely deep game. The characters and their development are impeccable. And it just... Well... Goes down the drain >< Not just the world of ruin's nonlinear gameplay, but the story unsuccessfully dives in that direction. I would've preferred it if they avoided something like that until the end or something. But oh well.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by sprouticus

Shadow of the Colossus: I feel that this is THE defining game of this past generation. It is, unquestionably, one of the most beautiful games I've ever played, aurally, visually, and emotionally. You can't tell me you didn't feel like a black hole started to consume your soul when...

Spoiler:

Agro died

It's really just too brilliant for words. I love this game to death.

Finally someone mentions it. I was floored by this game during my first play-through, and it continues to entertain me to this day. Another thing I loved about it was how epic the battles were. Here you are, this little guy trying to save a damsel in distress and you fight against monstrous colossi.
What ramped up the emotional experience you mention was the fact that you knew that you were killing these living creatures to save the girl. You knew you were doing evil so you could do good. It was incredibly painful for Wander, as you could see every time you defeated one of the colossi.
And yeah, that part you hid was sad. I was surprised when it happened.

I also wanted to second Half-Life 2 and the Metroid games.

One game that's missing from this thread is Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater.
The MGS games have all been great, but this one trumps them all. The story was crucial, especially coming after the derailing that was MGS2. Everything was perfect: the first encounter with Ocelot, Eva's part, the way The Boss carried out her agenda and tried to reason with Snake, and lets not forget the final battle with The Boss.
The end was very sad as well. Everything Snake went through during that mission to have it turn out like that was heartbreaking. It really helps you to see why Big Boss turned out the way he did.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I would have to agree with Snake Eater needing a nod for this thread. While I highly enjoyed the first two games the third is the defining Metal Gear game. The Boss/Naked Snake relationship was the most touching and best feature I have seen in a long while. I also really like the dialog between those two characters and the whole theme on loyalty. Since I study philosophy, when Boss asked what Snake was loyal to: the mission, his country, the end, "to me," that really had an impact on me. Everything just comes together so well. I'll cry if the Snake Eater Digital Graphic Novel for the PSP doesn't get the green light.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Denicalis

See, for my money, no game is perfect. Even the ones I really want to say come so fucking close, like Final Fantasy VI, Shining Force II, Final Fantasy Tactics or Dragon Force. There's always something that makes them not quite there. Whether it's a translation issue, or maybe the music isn't quite there, there's always something.

I can't agree with this enough. There's always some reason why the game isn't worthy of the name "perfect". There's always one little thing that could have been better, and damn well should have been. I really would love to describe any of my favourite titles as perfect, but really... there's a small problem I can think of in regards of each of them.

No game is perfect.

However, to avoid being a troll, I'll list those I feel come closest.

In no particular order:

Super Mario World: Never had level-design in a 2D platformer been so complex, and yet so beautifully simple at the same time. I still play this game all the time. It's always going to remain a favourite.

Super Metroid: The sense of discovery and exploration, along with the gradual increase in the powers available to the player made this game constantly interesting and always fun. There were very few noticeable flaws, and it inspired a legion of imitators.

Disgaea: It is of course, open to the accusation that all one must do is grind sufficiently, and then cruise through the rest of the game on autopilot, but I've never had so much fun discovering the limits of powergaming. Making my characters all they can be is a task that required genuine thought. That's rare.

Katamari Damacy: Somewhat more tight and lean than the sequel, and thus gains the higher accolade from me. Nothing like this had ever been done before. We <3 Katamari wins praise too, just not so much. After all, by thate time, we'd seen it before.

Castlevania: Symphony of the Night: Take the formula invented by Super Metroid, and fuse it with the setting from Castlevania, and you have a game which is scarcely original, but which did almost everything right. This game should be required reading for any would-be game designer.

The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past: In some ways, the feel is the same as Super Metroid. The more toys you get, the more stuff you can do. However, in other ways, this game distinguishes itself far above comparisons, and has never been equalled, much less bettered, by the other games in the franchise.

FELIPE NO

Dahahah. I forgot to add MGS3: Snake Eater to the list! Oh man is that ever a kickass game. Best movie I ever played~

Really does a nice job of jerking tears at points. Plus, I loved the sort of Bond/Cold War spin on things.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

No game is perfect: already been said, but I agree. What follows is the closest anyone's got to perfection (and it's gotten close).

-Final Fantasy VII- Cliche, but all too true. I love the story of this game to death, it stands as one of the best plots in any medium.

-Goldeneye 007- If anyone has played this game so much as I have (and so recently) then you know how awesome is was and still is.

-Metroid Prime- The best Gamecube game, in my opinion, and well deserved. The graphics are STILL amazing, the gameplay is STILL novel, and the game just evokes an amazement I will never really experience again, considering it was my first fourth-gen game I played.

-System Shock 2- Not only is it amazingly cinematic and fun, but it's also one of the scariest games I have ever played. Well crafted is an understatement.

-Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance- Personally, I believe it was here that Konami got the Metroid-vania down perfectly. I played this one first, and after played Symphony, yeah, it was good, but this one beats it better. Too bad I sold my copy oh so long ago...

-Super Mario 64- My first game. Enough said.


Time for my LttP speech. Ahem.

The Legend of Zelda is definitely not my favorite series, regardless of my avatar, and although I enjoy the games very much, I find that the defining points of the games are what makes me tick. The save system has always been a problem with every game for me. The story is the most boring thing besides Mario the developers can think up (although WW has a moment or two, and I hear good things about TP). And the gameplay is, while good, fundamentally the same. I'm not bashing LOZ, here, I have every game, and have enjoyed them all. What I am saying is that the are definitely NOT the best.

LttP, for example, has some small but nagging flaws. The lack of a coherent story, for example, and an annoyingly outdated difficulty curve. It's essentially the first half an hour over and over again the entire game. I did not get into Video Games until the N64 era, but when I go back to LttP, I just drop it and go, OOT is so much better. The presentation is better, as well as difficulty, story, and general awe factor. LttP is fun, and I think it's a great GBA game, but for console and handheld, OOT wins. We'll see how good TP is, though. 6 days. XD.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Dayvon

I too am one that has trouble with the world of ruin part of FF6. I'm not particularly sure what it is that I don't like, but I think it has to do with the non-linear nature of it. Ya know, the whole "go find the characters who are now consumed in there own little world, and convince them to fight." At the point before the ruined world, it seemed like the characters were beyond that for the most part.

I don't think they were beyond that as much as they had put their issues aside a bit because the situation demanded it. When Kefka destroys the world, each character has to find him/herself again and finally put their past problems to rest in a world that is now seemingly without hope. For me, that's the beauty of the story. Not that I'm going to try and change your mind, since I know that non-linear gameplay isn't for everyone, and FFVI doesn't exactly streamline the shift between linear and non-linear as well as Chrono Trigger does. (and it can't due to the nature of the plot twist) But for me, exploration is probably the main reason that I play any RPG, and the World of Ruin is a completist's dream in addition to spotlighting the struggles of the characters.

Originally Posted by Dayvon

And the fact that you don't even need to get alot of the "main" characters seems odd to me.

You mean to finish the game? I guess I can see why that would be a bit odd. Terra, the actual main character, does show up to guide the party to safety no matter what at least.

Originally Posted by Dayvon

This is also the point in the game where the espers giving magic abilities makes the game start to unravel a bit for me. Everyone becomes a great spell caster because of leveling up.

I guess that depends on how you feel about customization. Some people strongly prefer class-specific characters. I think I prefer a bit more customization since I found FFIV to be a bit limiting in that respect. FFVI has class restrictions to some extent with the special skills, but like in FFVII, you can essentially make everyone a jack of all trades. It's actually not as open as FFVII (FFVI has a few other class restrictions, like armor types and weaponry), which is why some who criticize FFVII for having no difference between its characters aside from limits still like FFVI.

Originally Posted by Dayvon

I dunno, I mean I love the game and have a FFIII SNES save with most (if not every) character at lvl 99, and I've played the game to death. But at the same time, the overall fulfilling feeling i got at the end was/is not very strong. And the lack of that fulfilling feeling, keeps me from wanting to play the game again.

But that's one heck of an ending (assuming you pick up every character, I guess), wouldn't you say? It's still my favorite of any game I've played.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Borg1982

All that stuff about FFIV being perfect

Sorry. I'm going to have to call bullshit on you here. From a purely objective standpoint, Final Fantasy IV doesn't come anywhere close to being perfect.

"Perfect" by definition means without flaw. Final Fantasy IV has too many major flaws to list. Let's go through some of them.

Disclaimer: I haven't played FFIV in about a year or two, so I don't remember some of the details about the game. Feel free to correct me if I'm blatantly mistaken on something.

1) Worst script ever. I should probably actually say that it's the worst translation ever, though. Take a look at your signature, my friend. What the fuck does any of that even mean? If the "legend" is about Cecil, then I would like to point out that he did not hoist the dark and the light - he abandoned the dark for the light about 5 hours into the game. Also, "arises high up in the sky?" Did no one proofread this? What about the second of this disgusting pair of run-on sentences, where an unknown "it" is mentioned... you know I was actually going to try and deconstruct how foolish this sentence is, but there's not a single word of it that makes any sense. And the sad thing is almost the entire game is like this.

Whoever was placed in charge of translating the game is a damn fool. I don't understand how you're going to tell me the Japanese people who designed the original game are culturally learned enough to name the 4 Mad Gods or whatever they called them in this game (the Fiends of the Elements? whatever) after characters from Dante, but the translator wasn't learned enough to pick up on that? Wow, what a perfect game.

2) Gameplay: Active Time Battle was a farce. Once someone's bar was full, you had to move them - you could not skip them to have someone else take a potentially more important turn, such as ressurecting a dead character, first. This feature was added to all subsequent Final Fantasies. It was a glaring omission. There is no case that can be made for it.

There are several nearly game-breaking glitches, like the notorious item cloning glitch.

The lack of customization is not intrinsically a good thing. Yes it means you have to use "Strategy" to beat the bosses. But it also means you have to use one strategy to beat the bosses. This would be like taking a game like Metal Gear Solid and forcing you to play the entire game through the same way every time. One of the things that makes that series brilliant is that you can take several approaches to any situation. Why is forcing you to fight battles in a particular way a more fun way to play?

3) Graphics. I'm faaar from a graphics whore. But FFIV looks almost no different from FFIII in field screens, and the most major difference in battles is that the backgrounds are now tiled across the whole screen instead of just the top. When you consider the monumental upgrade other NES franchises received on the Super NES, it's criminal that Final Fantasy didn't really get one until FFVI. (At least FFV had a good game backing up its shitty graphics, though.)

4)

Spoiler:

YANG DIES
CID DIES
PALOM & POROM DIE

Spoiler:

YANG COMES BACK
CID COMES BACK
PALOM & POROM COME BACK

Yes, behold the emotional gravity of this game's plot events! Behold as significant occurence after significiant occurence is completely nullified by the writer's lack of ability to come up with a reasonable plot device!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

chrono trigger is one of my all time favourites. this game is perfect! memorable soundtrack, excellent character design from dragonball artist, well though storyline and high replay value.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

@BurningRanger

Did you even read the OP? This thread is talking about perfect to yourself. To me FFIV is perfect. To you, I'm sure that it's not perfect. But let me try to explain why the "flaws" that you point out, are nulled in my opinion.

1) Worst script ever? Hardly. It does have translational errors when compared to the Japanese version, but not necessarily when compared to itself. The aforementioned "legend" in Borg's sig sounds cryptic, but hardly erroneous. Light = cecil, dark = golbez (who both go to fight Zeromus). Other translational errors such as "spoony bard" and such honestly come out as more goofy, which doesn't necessarily mean wrong.

2) Woooo. A glitch. Ouch. Obviously now the game isn't perfect. Accept if you don't use the glitch it is never a problem. And what other glitches are there? As for the ATB, there is nothing wrong with it. The system works not like previous Final Fantasy's, in that every characters & enemies turn-rate is different and thus providing a different experience than before. The "error" you reference is really not valid considering that it references advances that weren't out at the time.

The lack of customization lets the game/story define the characters as opposed to the player. Now this could be debated forever, but to me the story becomes more defined with character specifics being so defined. For example, Rydia as a summoner, Edge as a ninja etc. If I could customize them, then you lose alot. Then Rydia could be a swordmaster... WTF would that be?

3) Graphics: Obviously they were at least on par to other games at time of release (which is fairly close to SNES release). And honestly, it looks great with it's styling and art. Saying its graphics suck, is like saying a Dragon Warrior NES game is imperfect because it looks like shit.

4) Characters coming back, LOL. Seriously, Palom and Porom were stoned which is easily cureable by a mage, like the one from there home town. Cid you don't see die, just that he jumps. And same with Yang going in the room. These two character's deaths are assumed not witnessed. And you totally are grasping for straws with this one. Why would this really matter anyway? Do you want protaginist chacters to truly die?

Single plot device? Hell what hasn't ever not been told before? Every story is a rehash or borrow from another story these days. The crystal's story and the idea of going to the moon is something that seemed pretty freaking new and sweet to the FF series. The idea of a Lunar race, the summoned monsters kingdom. The game goes from looking at petty war among nations to earth shattering destruction by a locked away renegade from a long lost Lunar race and it gets there without feeling like a stretch. The whole Cecil being man&lunar blindsides you in a good way, not an unbelievable way.

It seems obvious to me that you WANT to not like the game. I don't expect your perspective to change, but don't come in here trashing others opinions on a game just to show you're "smarter" for not liking it. Your purely objective look at the game is entirely cynical, which again, is not the point of this thread.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

:words:

So he isn't allowed to call x game his favorite because you have reasons for it not to be?

Sounds pretty fucking retarded, sir. People see different things in different games in different ways. I'm sure if I picked to pieces your favorite game you'd be questioning what I'm doing too.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

The issue I personally had with him picking FFIV as his favorite wasn't the game itself, but what version of FFIV he liked best, which happened to be the original SNES FFII. It's kind of strange since later ports fixed up the translation and other glitches, so shouldn't he like the revision better than the original?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

"Perfect" by definition means without flaw. Final Fantasy IV has too many major flaws to list. Let's go through some of them.

Did you know that you were ?

No but honestly, if you looked hard enough every "perfect" game has a major flaw.

Plenty of peeps say Symphony of the Night is the "perfect" Castlevania game. Well what about the dismal dialog between Richter and Dracula?

VAMP KILLA: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill needs a savior such as you!

MOFUG'N DRAC: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk... Have at you!

But outside of that, and a few other nuisances, the game is practically "perfect".

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Or to beat the Castlevania example, it's just as easy to argue that SOTN is too easy as an example of being imperfect. Just like many people will say CV3 is too difficult or the controls aren't responsive enough as reasons for it being imperfect (two things that bother others a lot more than me apparently, so it definitely gets my own "perfect" nod, whereas I never felt as into SOTN once it got to be too easy).

BTW, am I the only one who actually liked the opening dialogue in SOTN, aside from Richter's delivery?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Dayvon, to hold a flawed work as being perfect is to ignore all its flaws. Which only a fool would do. The game is flawed. Its story is not well-executed in the least, between the poorly translated script (www.zanyvgquotes.com has a pretty large section for FFIV) and simply weak, uninspiring events.

Originally Posted by Dayvon

Palom and Porom were stoned which is easily cureable by a mage, like the one from there home town.

Originally Posted by A mage, like the one from there home town

Tellah: What a rash thing to do... HEAL! No effect. They have become stone by their will.

I'd post similar quotes explaining my other storyline gripes, but they're unnecessary. Suffice it to say that when a martial arts master goes into a control room that is about to explode, sacrificing his life to save his friends, that is noble. Cid jumping off the airship as it surfaces in order to bomb the hole shut and save his friends, while completely nonsensical (why not just throw the bomb!?!?) is noble. It's noble because they are making the ultimate sacrifice for their cause. But their return later in the game ruins these scenes.

What is wrong with them coming back? First of all, YANG DID NOT SURVIVE THAT EXPLOSION. Second of all, CID DID NOT SURVIVE THAT FALL FROM THE OVERWORLD INTO THE UNDERWORLD. Can you understand how completely asinine that is without an explanation being required? Okay, let's assume a phoenix down would do the trick - this still leaves the question of "why is it plausible that someone was just randomly walking around the underworld and found Yang's corpse?" Ditto for Cid. Next, their return to health completely nullifies their sacrifice, because they didn't sacrifice anything. Any emotion I might have felt while grieving for their death is completely soured. Just go ahead and ask one of the people who cried for Aeris how they would feel if the designers allowed the player to use a phoenix down on her afterwards: would you feel relieved, or cheated?

Okay. So you say the script stands up on its own, when you don't compare it to the Japanese version? As little sense as that makes, I'd like you to explain the following excerpt from the script.

Quote:

Cecil: It's me, Cecil! I became a Paladin!
Yang: Get him!
Guards: Yes, sir!
*guards attack*
Cecil:Yang! It's me!
Yang: I know that!

It's completely grammatically correct, so it isn't an issue of being "compared to the Japanese version." It's just stupidly written. Who would ever respond to Cecil's plea with "I know that!"??? It's awkward and stilted and the entire game is written like this. The script contains more exclamation points than it does articles. ("Elder of Mysidia says...") Most of the game's scenes are laughable, and that's ignoring the spoony-bard bit.

Originally Posted by Dayvon

Light = cecil, dark = golbez (who both go to fight Zeromus)

Originally Posted by The aforementioned "legend"

one to be born

Next. Yes, in order for a game to be perfect, it must be free of major bugs. A glitch that allows someone to have as many items as they want without any cost is the telltale sign that not enough time was spent making the game work correctly. There are also other glitches that allow you to sequence break, although I've never tried them. There is plenty wrong with the ATB. The inability to skip turns means the game is still turnbased like FFIII. Even though a fast character might have two turns to a slower character's one, they still need to wait for the slower one to take action before they can do anything. A glaring oversight.

You also read me wrong with my point about the customization - I'm all for having the characters have defined roles. Chrono Trigger did it and that game was a masterpiece. But Chrono Trigger also let you pick at least one character on your team, at all points in the game, even allowing you to pick all 3 members towards the end. The characters all had defined roles and personalities, yet you still had the freedom to approach fights as you wished. The rigidity of FFIV means many of the boss battles have a formulaic wash-rinse-repeat feel to them; e.g. Rydia nukes, Rosa heals, Edge attacks, Cecil guards. I should also clarify that I wasn't citing this as a flaw with the game, rather responding to the people who called it one of the game's strengths earlier in the thread. It isn't.

Finally, there's no way you can say the game is graphically on par with contemporary Super NES games. Behold:

There's such a marginal upgrade in quality, bearing in mind what Square later did with FFVI and Chrono Trigger. It was almost like what would happen if Nintendo launched the Wii with a Zelda running on the Ocarina of Time engine.

tl;dr: These are objective problems with the game. You cannot deny them. Is the game good? Yeah, I'll give you that, I had fun with it and there is a reasonably entertaining underlying story. But it's far from perfect, and to call it that is to willingly ignore its very serious flaws.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

And it's a big deal... Why?

It's his opinion, I don't see why you have to get so angry about it.

Relax already, we understand you hate the game, we don't need to see ten more pages on it.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I...fail to see the problem with anything listed above. Screenshot looks nice (it WAS a first-gen SNES game...that should be noted, despite me not seeing anything wrong with the graphics), excerpt works for me, I never used the cheat code, characters coming back were convincing (it wasn't like they instantaneously recovered), I'm fine with the legend referencing Cecil (the elder didn't know about Golbez when he had his revelation) who had both dark and light in him at some point and for all of the gameplay deficiencies listed, it plays better than most of the RPG's I've played and has some really good battles involved (assuming you don't power-level, it's quite a challenge, which is refreshing).

FFIV...Perfect? Maybe...I'm finding less and less to hold against it to suggest otherwise.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

1) Worst script ever. I should probably actually say that it's the worst translation ever, though. Take a look at your signature, my friend. What the fuck does any of that even mean? If the "legend" is about Cecil, then I would like to point out that he did not hoist the dark and the light - he abandoned the dark for the light about 5 hours into the game. Also, "arises high up in the sky?" Did no one proofread this? What about the second of this disgusting pair of run-on sentences, where an unknown "it" is mentioned... you know I was actually going to try and deconstruct how foolish this sentence is, but there's not a single word of it that makes any sense. And the sad thing is almost the entire game is like this.

Whoever was placed in charge of translating the game is a damn fool. I don't understand how you're going to tell me the Japanese people who designed the original game are culturally learned enough to name the 4 Mad Gods or whatever they called them in this game (the Fiends of the Elements? whatever) after characters from Dante, but the translator wasn't learned enough to pick up on that? Wow, what a perfect game.

As to your first argument:
"Elder: I do not know what it is nor do I know what the legend means... But we Mysidians, from generation to generation, are told to wish for this legend and to believe in the one with the Sacred Light. Now I am sure that you are
the one!"

You said that the legend makes no sense. Well, if you remember the story as clearly as I do, you'd realize that Elder himself does not know, either. You could not have bitched about the legend if you knew the storyline perfectly. However, you could ask the question, "Why would Elder try to wish for a legend that he doesnt understand?" I might ask you why religion makes any sense anyway. But the fact that Elder & clan are wishing for a person that can save them and to wish for such a person that might match that Legend adds that element of hope to the storyline.

To the second argument here: I could really care less what they call the bosses.

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

2) Gameplay: Active Time Battle was a farce. Once someone's bar was full, you had to move them - you could not skip them to have someone else take a potentially more important turn, such as ressurecting a dead character, first. This feature was added to all subsequent Final Fantasies. It was a glaring omission. There is no case that can be made for it.

The fact that you cannot switch to someone else who is ready for a turn makes the game more challenging. You have to be smart in what you do. Good job, FF4.

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

The lack of customization is not intrinsically a good thing. Yes it means you have to use "Strategy" to beat the bosses. But it also means you have to use one strategy to beat the bosses. This would be like taking a game like Metal Gear Solid and forcing you to play the entire game through the same way every time. One of the things that makes that series brilliant is that you can take several approaches to any situation. Why is forcing you to fight battles in a particular way a more fun way to play?

I'm with Dayvon here. Take FF6 for example. When you start equipping espers and getting massive magic for all the characters in the game, their uniqueness goes down. In FF4, the unique classes have to work as a team in battle to win. Why would I want to see everyone with Meteo spell? If you have most of the spells in FF6 for everyone, you can use Ultima (or anything else that's powerful) and require no strategy whatsoever.

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

3) Graphics. I'm faaar from a graphics whore. But FFIV looks almost no different from FFIII in field screens, and the most major difference in battles is that the backgrounds are now tiled across the whole screen instead of just the top. When you consider the monumental upgrade other NES franchises received on the Super NES, it's criminal that Final Fantasy didn't really get one until FFVI. (At least FFV had a good game backing up its shitty graphics, though.)

Graphics don't dictate which games are the best and not the best. So there's no point in replying here.

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

4)YANG COMES BACK
CID COMES BACK
PALOM & POROM COME BACK
Yes, behold the emotional gravity of this game's plot events! Behold as significant occurence after significiant occurence is completely nullified by the writer's lack of ability to come up with a reasonable plot device!

What is wrong with them coming back? First of all, YANG DID NOT SURVIVE THAT EXPLOSION. Second of all, CID DID NOT SURVIVE THAT FALL FROM THE OVERWORLD INTO THE UNDERWORLD. Can you understand how completely asinine that is without an explanation being required? Next, their return to health completely nullifies their sacrifice, because they didn't sacrifice anything.

I am with Dayvon on his earlier points. Further, the fact that these characters are willing to do these things makes them heroes no matter the outcome. Also, Cid and Yang did not come close to being healthy after the events. Yang was out for a long time and the Sylph helped him recover. Who is to say that Sylph is not the sole reason for his surviving the explosion? Check it out:

"Yang: Sylph saved me when I was in trouble."

Again, my memory of the script has helped again. (and finding the exact quote on the net for clarity).

As for the Cid case, you would expect the Dwarf Castle to pay attention to what is going on around them. Afterall, they are the leading super power of the underground with their own tanks and army. Although there is no proof in the main script, who is to say that some dwarves did not rescue him?

Lastly, if some guy was a private in the army and was ordered to run into a building alone that contained 5 suspected terrorists because he was the last chance for victory, knowing the incredible risk, and he came out alive would he not be a hero because he survived or would he only be a hero because he killed the 5 terrorists and died in the process?

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

It's completely grammatically correct, so it isn't an issue of being "compared to the Japanese version." It's just stupidly written.

The plot is perfect. The characterization is perfect. Regardless of some of the grammar, it is the best storyline in a game I have ever read. And it is not yours. The end.

Please look at post #34 on page 2 of this thread to see some of my points about the other versions of FF4. The part in there where I compare the same scene from all three versions of the game shows that I'm comparing emotion and not grammar. So keep that in mind.

I was speaking idiomatically.

FINAL FANTAAAAAAASY BATTLE

LOOK AT THE GRAPHICS IN THE ATARI 2600 VERSION, SQUARE'S NOT PUSHING THE 2600 AT ALL!



How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Chaotic

Relax already, we understand you hate the game, we don't need to see ten more pages on it.

I don't hate FFIV. But it's sloppily made, and far from perfect. If you want to talk about subjective preferences of game qualities then this isn't much more than a "hay guyz whats your favorite game" thread.

Also, lollin' @ "for all the gameplay deficiencies listed..." and then two lines later "Perfect? Maybe."

FELIPE NO

Any disagreements with my post there, Ranger?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

I don't hate FFIV. But it's sloppily made, and far from perfect. If you want to talk about subjective preferences of game qualities then this isn't much more than a "hay guyz whats your favorite game" thread.

In response...

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Are there any games that you can honestly say are flawless in your eyes, games that you feel don't need any extra additions or improvements whatsoever, for any alteration would only add some uneccesary coating to a spotless foundation?

FFIV, as FFII US or otherwise, needs no alterations to improve it. It is flawless in my eyes, as everything you point out against the game is something that I like about it. Besides, this isn't a thread for logic arguments, this is a thread for celebrating and bragging up the games that you love, and trying to explain why to help others get as much enjoyment out of the game as you do. Is there something wrong with that?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

Also, lollin' @ "for all the gameplay deficiencies listed..." and then two lines later "Perfect? Maybe."

Why? You left out the part in the middle, so of course your twisted logic makes sense. Reread and try again, plz.

And remember: It's easy to nitpick, but it's hard to criticize.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Perfect is a very strong word... I'm not sure I can think of any games that have absolutely no flaws at all but I'll list a few that come pretty damn close.

Zelda: LttP
Super Metroid
FFVI
Chrono Trigger
Yoshi's Island

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Ooh, picking apart SOTN is one of my favorite things to do. Apart from the poor voice acting, the inverted castle is a big and empty rehash of the normal castle, with sparsely placed enemies and only a few tracks being played ad nauseum. The definition of lazy game design. Also, the transformations are a joke. You have one trivial use for an otherwise worthless wolf form, a handful for the bat form, and a couple for the mist form. The RPG elements are similarly tacked on, with a lot of worthless items floating about. Finally, the game tries to implement Super Metroid elements, but it fails at creating the same solidarity between exploration and level design. It's full of big and generally empty corridors where aside from killing an enemy or two you're left with nice backgrounds and little else. All the while the game loses the strengths of old school Castlevania (the difficulty, tight level design, and consistent platforming elements), especially Castlevania III, which I consider to be the best game in the series. So in a lot of ways, SOTN is a jack of all trades and master of none. Yet thanks to the great controls and stellar presentation outside of the voice acting, it manages to be a good game with an addictive quality to it. Just not "the best 2D sidescroller ever".

As for FFIV, I think the game is generally well-designed, but I don't know how anyone can defend the silly drama. Truly, the series didn't get that right until FFVI. (FFV is exempt from such criticism for the simple reason that it takes itself less seriously, and yes, I like FFV a bit more than FFIV, though I consider both to be among the better Final Fantasy games) Outside of Tellah, the willing suicides of FFIV don't make sense and any dramatic value is negated when you find them miraculously alive (or you don't, in which case the Babil help sequence is even more hokey). You could swear that they would simply kill characters off just to make room in the party for an upcoming member. Honestly, what inspired Yang to suddenly choose suicide for saving the party when he has a wife and country to consider? I never much bought the Cecil/Kain relationship either. I can't believe that Cecil would foolishly keep taking Kain back in after being betrayed not once, but twice. It was obvious that Kain was jealous of Cecil and Rosa's relationship and yet Cecil turns a blind eye to that. Kain is like the earliest form of the Square angsty villain and anti-hero, which wouldn't be handled right until Magus. And speaking of Rosa, that woman had the personality of a roof shingle. If not for being Cecil's girl, she'd contribute nothing to the story. That's why everyone likes Rydia whereas Rosa is just there.

Still, despite these criticisms, I think FFIV is a good game with an excellent soundtrack. But the story could stand some scrutiny for the crazy suicides in particular, even though it has a some moments of brilliance like when Cecil faces himself on Mt. Ordeals, which by itself makes the game worthwhile.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?