Trials For Parents Who Chose Faith Over Medicine

Ness, I have a question:

ARE YOU EDUCATED RETARDED

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Ness the Mess

Assuming a higher value is better ...

Where an expected lifespan is 80 ...

80/80 + heaven(infinite) = infinite
80 + heaven - heaven = 80.

What the holy FUCK is this bullshit.

I was speaking idiomatically.

What Ness is doing is trying to avoid ethnocentrism to the point of making himself look like an ass. He's trying to be PC about it and say: "Yeah, but guys they have their beliefs and we should respect that." I get that. Hell, a huge part of what I do is being able to not get involved in moralistic minefields such as these.

However, what he fails to grasp is that the people in this thread already know what these people are thinking, and we don't care. He's trying to be so very understanding, but there is a point when logical people need to stand up and remind illogical people that they're just flat out wrong in their belief structure. I'm more than willing to be friends with a christian, but the second they tell me our foreign policy should be biblical I will tear down their opinion with every resource at my disposal.

Stop being a git, Ness. No one is impressed. Everyone came to the same conclusions as you--albeit in a less infantile and more understandable way--years ago. Get over yourself.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Ness, your refusal to answer my question about circumcision only means one thing: you are afraid of my FOUR-SIDE LOGIC. YOU SEE ONLY EVIL GOD OF "ONENESS." GOD HAS NO FEMALE COUNTERPART. GANG OF QUEERS.

I AM A KNOWER.
YOU CANNOT DISPROVE ME.

YOU ARE EDUCATED RETARDED
YOUR MATH IS FICTION

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Denicalis

trying to avoid ethnocentrism to the point of making himself look like an ass.

You're the reason the world hates North America. There. I took a stand.

Listen, you talk about logic and about those who are, unlike you, illogical, but your problem is you work with an understanding that you are right. While we all need to have some semblance of self and obviously we need to have beliefs, it is not a postive quality to believe that, no matter what, you are right.

If you believe in linear logic, and that there is one finite truth out there, then anyone who is smarter than you obviously has a greater understanding of the universe. Can we not accept that?

So, then, please, disprove Albert Einstein. He is undeniably smarter than you. If you deny that, then you are lost to humanist capitalism because it is just stupid for most people to make the claim that they are greater at reason than Einstein. Why do I bring it up? He was religious. Thus, according to your own stated logic that the logical people need to revelate to the illogical, you should just give in to Einstein's belief in God.

What I am saying, on the contrary, is that there are relative truths, and that truth is contextual. You are stuck in a two-hundred year old mindset which has been changing for a century. The era of rationalism and humanism is at an end. Even within your chosen bubble of thought impressionism, a form of humanism, accepted context as being massively important.

Your absolute certainty that you are right is disgusting, as disgusting as the most fundamentalist Christian. I am not apologetic for my faith. I am Christian, and that is what I believe. When people ask me on the way I think the world works I define it in a Christian context. So no, I am not compromising my belief to the point of selflessness. However, I am not so bold as to say that others who do not share in my belief are irrational, unreasonable, or any other such thing.

I am not saying the same things that you apparently believe you have come to the conclusion of, because I do not claim that these parents are irrational or unreasonable. You think that faith in an omniscient God is crazy, but you have unwavering faith in yourself? Or in a country?

I have news for you. Hitler had unwavering faith in himself and in his country. The United States is the current re-invisioning of the Roman empire, like so many before it. Napolean, Great Britain, and Russia have all come before it, and all fell. I realise you are Canadian, but said country is no less fallable than any other. My choice to have faith in an afterlife and in a massive God may be just another "flying spaghetti monster" to you, but so what? I'd rather have faith in an infinitely powerful, knowledgeable God than faith in you.

Do what you want with your life, believe what you want. But don't be so presumptious as to think that you know more than anyone else, because you have not walked in their shoes. Context is everything. Welcome to the 21st century.

Sassafrass, I was merely applying the only finite absolute that some people understand. More is better. Since these parents are unwavering in their belief of an afterlife and unwavering in their belief of a damning, judgemental God, their choice made absolute sense. Either they could infinitely reduce their child's lifespan and still have their child exist in heaven, or they could let their child live on with the knowledge that it would never make it into heaven. This is broken, false theology, but it is plain and simple what they believe. An infinite existance is better than only a mortal one.

I am sorry that there are no atheists here who can understand (even though not agree) that it is quite logical to chose eternal life over a mortal one purely in a mathematical, economical, logical fashion. If you truely did understand this mindset, you would find it harder to be so judgemental.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Seriously? The old "Einstein believed in god so therefore hurrrr" saw?

Look, this isn't about some pogrom against the world's faithful. It's about a couple of idiots who think it's totally acceptable for their children to die, and you're defending that with a bunch of mealy-mouthed WELL GOSH YOU DON'T KNOW THEY COULD BE RIGHT. No, they could NOT be right. Demonstrably. Because they possessed a belief that prayer would heal. Which it did not. They were wrong. Objectively. The objective fact that prayer don't do shit against diabetes is actually one of those no-duh longtime scientific facts. It's not like this was a secret from them.

As much as you might like to believe that we're all atheists because we think you're a cunt, we aren't.

We just think you're a cunt, independent of our individual faiths.

You depress me, because my initial impression was that you were some confused kid but it's obvious now you're just one of a long line of talking-point bullshitters through the ages.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I was ONLY using the Einstein argument in light of an equaly failed logic. I was showing intrinsically that it was an incorrect logic.

Once again I'm going to have to say that your side of the argument lies completely on humanism, if it sounds like a broken record its because noone is reading the damn statement. The belief that what we can witness is the extent of existance is imperial, humanist, and antiquated.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Einstein did not believe in God.
He used "He does not play dice" as an analogy saying the universe is not random.

The sooner people realise this the better.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

"It sure is bad when people kill their children through imbecilic neglect."

"Humanist!"

"what."

The world we perceive with our senses may not be the entirety of the world, certainly. But it seems sensible to prioritize that which we know to exist over that which we think might maybe exist. There is a possibility that every lottery ticket can be a winner, but it is an incredibly distant possibility. If someone spent their entire paycheck on lottery tickets in the belief that ONE OF THEM WILL FOR SURE BE A WINNER! you would think him an idiot. And rightfully so.

And that's what these people have done. Played the lottery. With a child's life. And you're defending this behavior.

You see why we're treating you with contempt, yes?

Furthermore: Einstein was a fairly crappy scientist as they go. He falsified several results to make them match his own biases. He was an excellent mathematician but I don't feel we should extend him much respect beyond that.

How ya doing, buddy?

I'm Catholic, and my God doesn't permit parents to allow their children to die through neglect. Ask the Pope if you don't believe me.

Just throwing that out there so you don't think there is an atheist agenda against you.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Serious discussion or not, it is worth pointing out that it's been a while since we've had someone at GFF who used so many words, and said so little.

It's like you guys are really arguing with Jago, or even Reclusive for that matter. I am highly amused.

tl;dr this is lulzy as fuck keep it up

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Awwww yeah, gettin' philosophical up in here. Sewers ahoy!

Originally Posted by Ness the Mess

The belief that what we can witness is the extent of existance is imperial, humanist, and antiquated.

The "world" is defined by what we can perceive. It is nonsensical to speak of something existing in a manner which we could never detect, because that would mean this thing could not interact with the world, and therefore lies "outside" the world, so to speak.

Also, what exactly is your position on logic here? Because you seem to alternately disparage it and bring it to bear in your arguments.

Quote:

...don't be so presumptious as to think that you know more than anyone else, because you have not walked in their shoes.

Here's the problem. You are starting at the end--the conclusion--and looking backwards, and saying, "Hmm, I can see why they would think that." But understandable is not the same as reasonable. Starting with the conclusion is the very definition of irrationality. If you interrogate these people and draw an explanation out of them, you can trace their thoughts back to conceptions of experience, causality, logic, etc. that are very much the same as your own. After all, we are all humans and perceive, more or less, the same "world." Once you have agreed on the premises, all valid deductions following from them are necessarily true, and that is where intellectual superiority comes from. Somewhere along the way to those (correct) deductions, these people stumble, and not according to some imposed way of thinking, but a shared worldview that they will, if pressed, agree upon.

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Originally Posted by Ness the Mess

You're the reason the world hates North America. There. I took a stand.

But he's Canadian.



STAND DENIED + FAILMODE ON.


Oh, and I'm a Christian who thinks that you're a retard.


I also think that your reliance on words means that you're a lot less intelligent than you think you are. Words == loss of innocence. Loss of innocence == need to rationalize God. That means you fail at God.



In the immortal words of Chester Bennington: "Shut up when I'm talking to you!"

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Wvlf dear, uh

Not sure how to break this to you but Canada is also part of North America. Denicalis is a dual citizen of both Canada and the U.S. (last I checked anyway) so it really wouldn't matter either way (if he were saying America specifically, that is).

Jam it back in, in the dark.

only wvlf could find the one not-flaw in Ness' argument

good job, wvlf

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Oh ;_____; See, I see "America" and ignore the "north" part.



I am fail. I also did edits.


Should I go back to quoting Time Cube at him?

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>>#80

What's up with the appealing to authority and beg the question there. In a fallacy ridden post that's full of delicious none-logic and ad hominem I really wish people would do a proper critique of it.

Oh, ad Hitlerum, classy.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by a lurker cares™

I'm Catholic, and my God doesn't permit parents to allow their children to die through neglect. Ask the Pope if you don't believe me.

Just throwing that out there so you don't think there is an atheist agenda against you.

Unfortunately the Bible is being interpreted by so many millions of people all over the world that we will get too many different versions of Christianity to ever get along.

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However the vast, overwhelming majority of those people interpreting the Bible do not read 'let your children die of easily-preventable or treatable diseases' in it.

How interesting.

more research is needed maybe?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Well, not in those words no. But clearly they got the idea somehow, and my point is that they put religious stock into this doctrine.

Religion is capable of doing great things, but it is also able to mislead great masses of people. Some people believe that God will step in at the last minute as he did during the sacrifice of Isaac (probably where they got the idea from in the first place), some believe that flying planes into towers will make the world a better place. They're all wrong, but they think they're right, so they do it.

Regardless of which God anyone worships, they believe in it to the end in the same way that you believe that your God will never condone something like this incident to take place, and i believe the same.

Actually, if i could get rid of my previous post i would. I don't really want to start the argument again. I thought the argument was still going and hoped to mediate a bit, but failed to notice the time stamp on the last post. So idiot points to me. Just keep in mind i'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. I'm also not trying to argue with you, lurker, i just wanted to offer a bit of middle ground.

FELIPE NO

Well that's the thing. No one thinks that these people maliciously neglected their child to death, otherwise she'd probably have been beaten or left in a carseat in her snow suit for a week before someone noticed the dead baby smell* or something. The problem is that neither you nor your friend are arguing anything, except (in his case) that we're all ignorant because we don't preface our posts with "I don't think this couple is worse than Hitler however"

* absolutely, horrifyingly true. 5 month old baby. I don't have kids but it still haunts me, I can't look at a child in a snow suit without thinking about this poor kid.

How ya doing, buddy?

And that's just why i wanted to mediate. A. Everybody's at the same conclusion, B. Ness has inspired all of this Ire based on his word choice, which is partially my fault. He became active without telling me, and i didn't really get to warn him about stuff like this.

I apologize on behalf of Winnipeg.

Holy shit, that's disturbing

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Ness the Mess

Sassafrass, I was merely applying the only finite absolute that some people understand. More is better. Since these parents are unwavering in their belief of an afterlife and unwavering in their belief of a damning, judgemental God, their choice made absolute sense. Either they could infinitely reduce their child's lifespan and still have their child exist in heaven, or they could let their child live on with the knowledge that it would never make it into heaven. This is broken, false theology, but it is plain and simple what they believe. An infinite existance is better than only a mortal one.

Until any person can prove an afterlife without question, therefore justifying the negligent death of a child, you have a fucking bullshit argument.

What you believe and what is are two different things. What I believe and what is are two different things.

Do you understand this.

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Sass, don't you know that

UNTIL WORD IS CORNERED HIS MATH IS FICTION.

CONFIRMATION:



LIFE ENCOMPASSES A 4-16 CUBE PRINCIPLE

Read physics of Santa Claus. Explain the
physics of a god. Belief has no inherent
value, but worship of such nonvalue as a
god, equates to nonacceptance of Cubic
knowledge - as demonstrated by ineffable
Truth and the Highest Order of Wisdom.
I can talk with a human for hours about
the Time Cube and they will agree with
every claim I make. But at the end of the
conversation, they remark that they believe
in the nonvalue belief god and cannot
accept Cubic Creation, regardless of all
the ineffable Truth and Wisdom it proves.
A Belief Matrix pulls a 1 day world over
your eyes, while the real Cubic World has
4 simultaneous days in 1 Earth rotation.
Educators own your mind and fills it with
garbage, that will soon destroy humanity.

How ya doing, buddy?

You are all absolutely retarded.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?