Plans for the future of Gamingforce

Don't you guys have a place explicitly dedicated to having these internecine squabbles out of the public view?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Bigblah

Acer, are you really that upset that Concert Hall doesn't get to use our server space for their attachments? Really now, this move benefits GFF as much as it does our other two domains.

I don't give a flying fuck about Concert Hall, Blah. Move it. Burn it to the ground. Like I give two shits. My beef is with this sudden order of respect you've revealed in this thread.

Originally Posted by Bigblah

Acer, we're pretty much piggybacking on the VGMdb server. Did you think we had the money to pay for two dedicated servers?

Originally Posted by Bigblah

Donations ran out a while ago. Right now we're paying for the server out of our own pockets. To be frank, the admins are primarily paying for VGMdb.

1. Why were we not informed that GFF was not the only tenant of the server?
2. Why were we not informed that donation money was not being sufficent enough?

And then I absolutely adore how you respond to Pang.

Originally Posted by Pangalin

While obviously these decisions are down to whoever's paying the bills, I don't think it's unreasonable to be somewhat agitated at the notion that the board essentially exists at the pleasure of VGMdb (of all things), that the community is considered less important than an overblown card catalogue.

How did that even happen? VGMdb appears to be several months younger than this iteration of GFF so exactly at what point did it become "VGMdb's server"? Was there a big ceremony with handing over the keys to Squirrel and all that.

By all means you do whatever you have to, I just think it's a little underhanded that this has all suddenly come out now. "O hey, incidentally, Kaleb owns you guys."

With this:

Originally Posted by Bigblah

Oh, please. The effort to split the two forums from GFF is barely worth it as it is. I know most of you have never administered anything other than Dreamhost's one-click MediaWiki install but trust me, this shit isn't trivial.

Since you're all upset that GFF apparently isn't top on my list of priorities, maybe someone would like to step up and take over. I'm tired of this song and dance.

Yeah, I get it. You know how to move the stars and planets, and you are entitled to your priorities and where you place your efforts and enjoyment. We have CHz for a reason (he's awesome and fun to play with). However your priorities and attitude displayed in here are painting a picture where the high and mighty Blah looks down upon the cretins that squander his land to which the mighty Blah smirks and relays a message to the people that they have had masters all along and that they would do good to look down upon their shackles with great joy and praise the sky where their masters set forth their posteriors to rest lest they wish for gazes of disapproval.

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Don't you guys have a place explicitly dedicated to having these internecine squabbles out of the public view?

Oh we do, Pang, but despite that Blah chose not to confer in that particular privacy with staff on his important decisions. Instead Blah carried forth such declarations and certain enlightenment in this very public and open place of discussion, and now here we stand to perform upon this stage to flutter and prance before all who wish to witness splendor and awe.

I was speaking idiomatically.

In light of Basil's comments about how an unhidden My Stuff and Concert Hall would be shut down almost immediately, I second the motion to just delete both and pretend nothing ever happened.

Also, as a matter of interest, if it wasn't VGM that got us a warning letter, what was it? Was it when LeHah reported us to the RIAA for that Superman box set?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Acer:

Do you not remember when we delayed the restoration of GFF during the last crash? That was because Miles was busy saving the data for VGMdb off the broken hard drive -- on our dime too, since we weren't going to ask GFF members to pay for something that wasn't theirs. In fact, in my temporary message put up on gamingforce.org I explicitly stated that GFF and VGMdb were hosted on the same drive. Nobody made a fuss about it then. Why now? What do you want me to do, Acer? Get down on my knees and suck your dick, because you're suddenly waving money in my face? I'm sorry that I hurt your ego, but if your only argument against this decision is my tone of voice, I'm going to devote my attention elsewhere.

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Hey guys, uh, I heard there was going to be dick-sucking?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Calm down Blah, I think Acer is just concerned that from the way you tell it, it looks as though the Gamingforce forums are reliant on SD and VGMDB to remain in existance. This is a worrying situation because in the past when we were reliant on someone else (bobo) we were let down and damn near lost the whole place, and in fact would have done, but for your own and Miles' intervention.

I can't speak for Acer but I think is main issue is that if we're relying on them, we have little in the way of a safety net if they decide they don't want us anymore. I don't think he's saying that we pay so we deserve respect, he's saying he'd rather pay so we weren't reliant on anyone else. I imagine he's also bothered that we have to sacrifice part of our boards (Albeit parts we won't miss) to make room for VGMdb or SD. It makes us feel like the expendable ones out of the three.

The hostility I imagine comes from some slight frustration that other projects are seemingly a higher priority for the admin team than this place, and again, the echoes of bobo. Nobody would ever question yours or Miles' dedication to this place but you've got to realise that people get nervous here when an admin comes out with an announcement of this magnitude almost out of the blue and especially for those of us tasked with looking after the place, without mentioning it in the Hut first.

Nobody really gives a flying fuck what happens to CH or My Stuff, as you said yourself, the community has outgrown them and I doubt many of us would even have noticed if you'd just deleted them. If I'm reading the mood in the thread right, people are concerned that we're in danger of losing the Gamingforce forums because of the dubious legal standpoint of sections of the board or the huge database attached to an online catalogue of computer game music (Or whatever VGMdb is, can't say I've ever visited).

Getting all defensive and snarky because people are worried is only going to exacerbate the situation. All people want is reassurance that these boards aren't going anywhere, telling people if the don't like your tone of voice you're going to turn your attention elsewhere is hardly a sensible way to give that. If you need more money in order for us to guarantee our survival then by all means tell us.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

See, I'm a little bewildered here because essentially VGMdb and GFF share the same set of admins (me, Miles, Secret Squirrel being a past admin). Heck, Naka from SD used to be a GFF admin too. We're not exactly strangers.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Of course you aren't and I wasn't suggesting that you were. It's just that the rather sudden nature of the announcement caught us off guard and as other people have already mentioned in this thread, Miles is less hands-on than he used to be.

All I'm saying is that I can see how people might draw parallels in their minds to the end of the bobo era and his increased absences and prioritising of other projects.

Nobody wants to lose the boards and whilst we have no problem ditching CH or My Stuff to do so, we don't want to feel like next time VGMdb needs more space for whatever it is they do, we'll have to cut out Community Commons.

And I'm not suggesting that we will, I'm suggesting that while we're relying on two other websites to exist, that shadow hangs over us, no matter how unlikely it actually is.

And you know, it might have been nice if you'd mentioned this in the Hut before Board Support.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Bigblah

Do you not remember when we delayed the restoration of GFF during the last crash? That was because Miles was busy saving the data for VGMdb off the broken hard drive -- on our dime too, since we weren't going to ask GFF members to pay for something that wasn't theirs. In fact, in my temporary message put up on gamingforce.org I explicitly stated that GFF and VGMdb were hosted on the same drive

Okay I'll give you that it's probably my fault that I didn't know GFF and VGMdb were on the same server. I must have skipped reading your message from that last crash completely or just plum forgot it. My bad. However SD sharing the bill is something I wasn't made aware of until now. Neither was donations running dry and forcing VGMdb admins to cough up the dough that donations from GFF could have been helping with. Miles asked a few months ago for some donation help to which I obliged. A need was shown and it was fulfilled. If only we had an indication say up top or on the donation page to show us what GFF needed to pay in order to keep this whole ship afloat. If only.

Originally Posted by Bigblah

Nobody made a fuss about it then. Why now?

Having GFF and VGMdb on the same server is all fine and dandy and you two did a noble thing to spend the money to save VGMdb (and GFF) off of that broken harddrive. The problem I have now is GFF being treated like second banana to VGMdb due to how the server is funded nowadays. The only issue with having GFF and VGMdb on the same server as previously mentioned is GFF's pirate booty party times.

Originally Posted by Bigblah

What do you want me to do, Acer? Get down on my knees and suck your dick, because you're suddenly waving money in my face?

I only flaunt money because I want GFF to pull its fucking weight like VGMdb and SD. Why is that such a bad thing, Blah?

Originally Posted by Bigblah

I'm sorry that I hurt your ego, but if your only argument against this decision is my tone of voice, I'm going to devote my attention elsewhere.

Again you forget that my argument isn't against this decision of moving The Concert Hall, My Stuff, and the 15 GB of attachments. My argument is against this:

Originally Posted by Bigblah

There's four regular contributors to the monthly fees now, so we don't have to rely on donations anymore. Speaking personally, I'd rather not, because people have arbitrary expectations of what donations entitle them to.

The only entitlement that I want by helping keep GFF matching the monthly bills of VGMdb and SD (or whatever amount of payment is deemed fair and proper) is that GFF is shown the equal respect it once had. That is all.

The only proper argument I have against the decision you're going to make in moving The Concert Hall and My Stuff to the .com is that unless you don't want it to make a giant bleep on the RIAA/whateverthehellelsecopyrightprotectionagency radar you'll need to give it a cover of some sort. The forums gave those two hideaways the camouflage they needed to survive without hundreds of take-down notices being hurled our way. I argue that without a proper cover The Concert Hall and more importantly My Stuff will have to be destroyed or reformed to the extent that they are deemed pointless be that a good thing or a bad thing. We need something else to take place on the .com. Something decently sized like our forums. You could place a fake forum on top of that but that seems rather wasteful. I have had no idea what we should do with the .com besides it being used as the current redirect but I'd hoped that it would be something slightly special in the future. That is why I stated "I'm not completely enthused on moving Concert Hall and My Stuff from the forums for this reason. I'm not sure what would be a better use of the .com but I don't think its this." However I grant you that the move must be done for storage reasons and for the future safety of the server. I propose that the .com still be used for something good despite mostly being a cover for The Concert Hall and My Stuff.

and good lord these blueprints (this thread) need to be stored somewhere private eventually lest we wish to invite the enemy in for punch and pie

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Miles did say that it was another $30 a month to double our disk space. We could afford that but you'd agree it's more cost effective to move CH instead. Moving My Stuff is just a matter of killing two birds with one stone.

Also, I've already addressed the issue of priorities. I have stated before that I'm preoccupied with VGMdb, that's exactly why I pushed for CHz to take over my role. He's been doing great so far, don't you think?

Acer:
Let me put it this way: even if I'm not that enamoured with GFF recently, Miles is still the de facto owner of the server, so rest assured he has your backs.

I'm indeed planning to shelter the .com side from public view. As for what the public facade should be, I'm planning to leave in the hands of the admins and moderators there.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Bigblah

Also, I've already addressed the issue of priorities. I have stated before that I'm preoccupied with VGMdb, that's exactly why I pushed for CHz to take over my role. He's been doing great so far, don't you think?

It wasn't a complaint, it was an observation. CHz does indeed do a great job, I was simply saying that we don't want to be kept too out of the loop on these things if you're busy with VGMdb because Miles isn't here to tell us and I can't see Naka or Squirrel making an announcement in the Hut somehow.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Bigblah

Miles did say that it was another $30 a month to double our disk space. We could afford that but you'd agree it's more cost effective to move CH instead. Moving My Stuff is just a matter of killing two birds with one stone.

Just throwing out if it's for the sake of the server GFF resides on even if it is VGMdb and SD needing more space I'd be willing to help fund it.

Originally Posted by Bigblah

Also, I've already addressed the issue of priorities. I have stated before that I'm preoccupied with VGMdb, that's exactly why I pushed for CHz to take over my role. He's been doing great so far, don't you think?

That's jolly good. And I've acknowledged how wonderful CHz is already. It was a wise decision.

And I can see that you are preoccupied with VGMdb. I took a visit last night and the place looks great. Well, besides a few graphical buttons here and there which I'm very tempted to fix up and pass off to you in hopes to be rid of the dreaded white pixel matte that befouls your canvas. May I be of service in that regard?

Originally Posted by Bigblah

Let me put it this way: even if I'm not that enamoured with GFF recently, Miles is still the de facto owner of the server, so rest assured he has your backs.

Cool. Cool. That won't change my stance on keeping an eye on the first mate says and does in regards to the ship. If it helps, I still trust your decision making for the most part.

Originally Posted by Bigblah

I'm indeed planning to shelter the .com side from public view. As for what could be made public and what should be kept private, I'm planning to leave in the hands of the admins and moderators there.

Very good. I look forward to this.

How ya doing, buddy?

I can say that, from the VGMdb side, we've (or at least I have) had the exact same concerns as you about the shared hosting. I'm encouraged to see that any rifts we have can mostly be solved by communication and openness. Actually, I'd prefer the whole monthly balance sheet -- income and expenses -- to be public, especially since people are asked to donate from time to time. But I've never seen this done on a private site, so there's probably some reason.

About the concert hall: if GFF really doesn't want it anymore, I would envision a move to .com as a temporary solution, and think that the CH regulars need to pick up the ball and run with it. Perhaps a few of them could obtain some hosting and start their own site. But at this point, I don't think anyone there even knows that the move is coming, so someone needs to start this conversation in CH.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel

I don't think anyone there even knows that the move is coming, so someone needs to start this conversation in CH.

They've never bothered to help us or have a say in the past - why start now? Inform the zombie droves when theres a decision made and when its going to be acted on; anything beyond that is just going to give them a false sense of entitlement.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel

someone needs to start this conversation in CH.

Heh, see that's why none of the regulars give a fuck about ditching them. They're so fucking insular, we could move the entire subforum to a new url and but for their bookmarks not working, none of the regulars there would even notice. We're a place that prides itself on it's sense of community and they simply aren't a part of it.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Not true. In spite of LeHah's consistent belligerent comments, I've been following the thread closely and have been considering the suggestions (not that I can do much about it, but I'm planning to motivate some action that will help server-wise).

Regarding attachments in CH, Sass is mostly right - hardly anyone in the CH is aware of the running costs of the server and this has not been communicated properly to CH members previously or now. The animosity hasn't helped either. CH people by nature tend to follow rules quite deliberately so I'm sure if someone politely asked them to stop using attachments a lot of server space can be freed up. Heck, I even deleted my 4MB of attachments after reading this thread.

Also, since many new members come through the CH they're not really aware of the situation of GFF as compared to the regulars. The immediate task then (which has long been overdue) is a big sticky regarding server costs and alternatives to attachments.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Mersenne, even you must admit that your ability to read threads outside your preferred subforum is very much an exception to the rule. Board Support is essentially the lobby corkboard of the apartment building that is GFF, and it says a lot about a tenant that doesn't read the corkboard and needs to have every little piece of news tacked to his front door instead.

Moreover, even if every single person frequenting CH were to abruptly stop using attachments this very instant, it would not begin to resolve the legal questions — which are, in the long term, much more pressing. GFF could surely pony up another $30 a month if it had to (although much of this is out of a desire not to have to). Finding an entirely new host or (god forbid) fending off a lawsuit is another matter.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

But that situation only arises if a split occurs - which would greatly expose those hidden file-sharing dens (MY STUFF and CH).

I was speaking idiomatically.

"That situation" already almost occurred. If it happens again, 3 websites go down unless CH and My Stuff move to gamingforce.com. Admins have already said that they would try to keep you guys covered up, so it's less of a big deal than you think.

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So what I'm reading here is: Please don't take away our camouflage.

Is this incorrect?

FELIPE NO

It seems fairly evident from the thousands of people who just show up to leech from Concert Hall that the camouflage doesn't work that well. They wouldn't be signing up if wasn't obviously there. It's not like the file sharing that goes on here is a carefully guarded secret.

Just throwing this out there, but classical music and soundtracks are at the very, very bottom of the RIAA's problem child list.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Yet obviously somebody had a problem, or we wouldn't have got the letter that we already did.

(We're not going to get an answer as to what that letter was for, are we)

Jam it back in, in the dark.

As SS has put forth, and two of GFF's foremost music experts quickly dashed, there is a potential in asking the movers and shakers of CH and My Stuff on how to better carry themselves after the eventual separation.

While I am a lousy example of such a person, having migrated from CH to GFF a while back, there are a few that would do very well to organize this on their end. Mersenne, despite my general misgivings, has been relatively keen on things as of late and would be one such candidate, and the irc concerthallers, the few of them that are there, are another set, going back and forth between one community and the other.

I really hope that it doesn't end up with someone with absolutely no vested interest to take control of something they would care little about.

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Originally Posted by Pangalin

(We're not going to get an answer as to what that letter was for, are we)

It was for some sort of Superman soundtrack. More My Stuff than Concert Hall.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Please excuse my lowly interjection, but from what I can tell, no one who is part of Gamingforce Forums PROPER gives two shits about CH and all that shit.

I'm perplexed as to why they're even included on our boards. Unload them. It's only logical. Nothing against them, but they've holed up here and need to go blossom into their own community elsewhere. Gamingforce is neither the place for them, nor should we pay their way. (when I say "we," I mean whoever is paying for them under the GFF banner)

Which is why the attachment options (in my opinion) should be shut off for Gamingforce.org if the forums intend on staying here. I don't think anyone is going to argue over that one.

Meanwhile, GFF has become second? third? fiddle to VGMdb and SD. SD won't be much of a strain I would imagine (since they seem to have minimal activity), and I don't even know why Naka would offer to split the costs even on that one.

I know next to nothing about VGMdb so I can't really comment. I would just hope that our community, which has thrived for so long and (as I understand it) has begot these new projects would stand tall and get priorities.

I can't imagine GFF being a huge financial strain when you remove CH and My Stuff. And those guys (no offense) should have packed up and left a long time ago.

Now, I hope I haven't completely misunderstood the entire thread. I probably have. I've been watching closely, though. I'm hoping I haven't completely missed the mark.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?