North Korea wants to be an attention whore again...

But how would they pull that off?
Assassination's no good because the guy is always moving around and hiding.
Military invasion is no good because aggressive military actions are no longer "allowed" in our world unless they're for some intangible benefit such as "spreading democracy", which China would have no intention of doing.
Inciting a revolution has too much backfire potential, what with S.Korea as the typical smiles'n'sunshine neighbour everyone wants to be like.

I suppose we could release a genetics-specific virus that's engineered to target people who really, really, really like movies and are also assholes. Sean Penn's demise would be an unfortunate consequence.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I think it pretty much a matter of waiting for N. Korea to make the bold move in order for the rest of the world to justify invasion or counter strike of some sort.

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Military invasion is no good because aggressive military actions are no longer "allowed" in our world unless they're for some intangible benefit such as "spreading democracy", which China would have no intention of doing.

Heh. It's China, buddy. They can be as belligerent as they want in regards to North Korea and still maintain good relations with their most important trade partner.

The Chinese could affect a coup by hand-picking a general and making him an offer he can't refuse. The general starts an insurrection, and the Chinese deploy a "peacekeeping" force. Things are done, people are shot, and the DPRK is headed by a new, China-friendly dictator.

Alternatively, if we started playing Nuclear Hardball, China could offer Kim and out, say, Exile, and in return Kim dissolves the DPRK and the Chinese force the remnants to accept a reunification deal favoring the South. We'd have to negotiate with China to accomplish this feat, of course. Which would probably require the end of an American presence on the Korean peninsula indefinately.

The "Democratizing" effect of South Korea wouldn't be any more significant than the Chinese access to media, as censored as it is. The appeal of Democratic nations is that they offer the potential for financial wealth, yet the Party has precariously balanced free market initiatives while maintaining a totalitarian Police State. The Chinese would sooner not rock the boat and have their own car instead of a bullet in the face.

The Party only really has to worry about the rural poor, who have had a nasty history of dissent, and most of them live far enough away from South Korea for any cultural influence.

The biggest thing for the Chinese is that North Korea acts as a buffer against American aggression. Complete removal of US forces from the peninsula is a monkey off the Party's back. So long as we remove the nuclear tripwire from China's "elbow room" they should be fairly compliant with a reunified Korea.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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Assassination's no good because the guy is always moving around and hiding.

China's the reason hes still alive. It wouldn't be too hard for the Chinese to assasinate him, or use the course of action Brady gave out. There wouldn't be much issue with a Democratic Korea that doesn't have a US presence. Nobody in their right mind would want China start democratic reforms that quickly, so theres not much fear of that for them.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Interesting to see the Ambassador for North Korea walk out after the Security Council voted 15-0 in favour of sanction against them.

I wonder if they will declare actual war with the United States and possibly the world now.

FELIPE NO

Actually, and technically speaking, I believe they are still at war with the US and the ROK, as the only thing signed back in the fifties was a cease fire, not a peace treaty.

Out of the restrictions set on the DPRK by the recently passed UN resolution, it wouldn't surprise me if the ban on the import of luxury good will be the most damaging. I mean, I suppose that Kim has enough cognac and mercedes for a decade, but then again I believe he is one of the largest customer for some of the largest distillers of high end liquor in the world, so he might go through his reserve in no time.

The problem comes with maintaining the lifestyle of high-ranking party officials and generals. These guys are actually incredibly rich when compared to the average korean, obviously, but some of them are fairly rich when compared to individuals from the west, and certainly lead a lifestyle that would make a number of millionaires blush. The chances of North Korea having, or developing, an industry producing luxury goods to support this elite is, how shall we say, slim, if we consider that they can't even feed their own people, so without the import of luxury goods from the outside, those guys might get fairly unhappy with Kim. And Kim might be the Dear Leader, but he still needs the support of the military, at the very least.

Of course it all depends on how strongly the resolution is enforced. But if it's enforced well enough, I can see this bringing down or at least weakening the North Korean regime much more easily, and with less civilian deaths, than pretty much anything else.

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Liquor distillers can just keep selling to rappers.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

or pilots

There's nowhere I can't reach.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc....ap/index.html

Not that this is anything terribly new, but North Korea's getting less food aid to feed their people now from the UN and other countries, so this means some people are going to suffer a lot more than usual there.

Not that I have anything against feeding hungry people, but it kind of pisses me off that the North Korean government will no doubt use this to their advantage. They will say something like "See, the world has stopped giving you food because they want you all to suffer, but keep believing in and supporting the "Dear Leader" (aka the nutcase Kim Jong il), and he will get you out of this rut."

Nevermind the fact that it's because of "Dear Leader's" actions that all this suffering is happening to them in the first place. At the same time I just don't have much sympathy for a country who can't even feed their own people, yet are trying to develop stuff that won't really help them that much anyway. Kind of like those idiots after Katrina that used the $2,000 cards from FEMA to buy Gucci purses and expensive tv's, rather than food and clothing they desparately needed.

Rather than bombing the North Koreans with explosives, I say we just launch a ton of propaganda leaflets that don't just say "overthrow your leader, he is teh SuQ", but just show them pictures of the better parts of China, South Korea, food, etc., just to show the North Korean population what they're missing out on because of "Dear Leader". He won't seem so divine when they see how prosperous South Korea has become while they're stuck eating tree roots.

Of course, this makes too much sense, and no doubt the North will see this as aggression (unless they already struck first again), so it will probably never be used. But I bet you if they use the proper words and images, it'll weaken support for the N. Korean government at home (esp. if they do those "aerial food drops" like in Afghanistan, long as the govt. doesn't get a hand on that stuff first, and try to say that the gods are dropping them food because Dear Leader prayed lol).

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Looks like the United States has confirmed that N. Korea had exploded a nuclear device. They say the bomb was probably less than a kiloton.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...ons/index.html

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Rather than bombing the North Koreans with explosives, I say we just launch a ton of propaganda leaflets that don't just say "overthrow your leader, he is teh SuQ", but just show them pictures of the better parts of China, South Korea, food, etc., just to show the North Korean population what they're missing out on because of "Dear Leader". He won't seem so divine when they see how prosperous South Korea has become while they're stuck eating tree roots.

Tresspassing airspace like that would be an Act of War, so nope, never going to happen. People aren't stupid though, given enough starvation, they will eventually revolt against what is happening. It's just a matter of how destabilizing it is.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I think its funny that the place where they test the bombs is: kilju = "kill you".

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I believe this was how the Berlin Wall fell. Or something like that - at least that's what I think happened; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. If it worked for Germany it'll probably work for Korea.

Originally Posted by Gecko3

Rather than bombing the North Koreans with explosives, I say we just launch a ton of propaganda leaflets that don't just say "overthrow your leader, he is teh SuQ", but just show them pictures of the better parts of China, South Korea, food, etc., just to show the North Korean population what they're missing out on because of "Dear Leader". He won't seem so divine when they see how prosperous South Korea has become while they're stuck eating tree roots.

Of course, this makes too much sense, and no doubt the North will see this as aggression (unless they already struck first again), so it will probably never be used. But I bet you if they use the proper words and images, it'll weaken support for the N. Korean government at home (esp. if they do those "aerial food drops" like in Afghanistan, long as the govt. doesn't get a hand on that stuff first, and try to say that the gods are dropping them food because Dear Leader prayed lol).

FELIPE NO

I hope that this event will eventually cause the reunification of North and South Korea (not under Kim's rule though, of course; he can rot in hell, that cruel bastard).

This is getting pretty crazy though; China's pissed, Japan's pissed, South Korea is worried and pissed, and Bush's making another line that North Korea is just going to cross again. =/

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Well, the way things are going, something BIG is going to happen in the next few weeks to months. I really think the rest of the world is waiting for N. Korea to make the big move.

I get this feeling that Kim Jong Il is not healthy. In fact, I assume he is dying. Before he dies, I think he is going to do something crazy.

Just a theory...

Jam it back in, in the dark.

All the more reason to wipe out the North Korean regime completely.

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All the more reason to wipe out the North Korean regime completely.

Theres a consensus that it needs to happen, the regime can't stay. It's just more an issue of how. Personally, I see force as the only option considering how Sunshine and Chinese requests have all been rebuffed. However, since the US is still pretty dug down in the Middle East, doing so would severely blunt any further capabilities of the US army.

For that matter, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the DoD run on a policy of being able to fight two full scale wars on different fronts and one small insurrection somewhere else?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Adamgian1

For that matter, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the DoD run on a policy of being able to fight two full scale wars on different fronts and one small insurrection somewhere else?

I think that the DOD had decided to do "reevaluate" that policy even before Iraq exposed how poorly prepared the Army was to make it work, and won't be without a major expansion of Army to give us the manpower to fight those two major wars.

That was one of the problems that resulted from the end of the Cold War. The DOD policy was, as you said, to be able to fight two major land wars at once, and during the Cold War, the military was large enough to make it workable. However, that policy stayed in place even with the force reductions instituted after the breakup of the Soviet Union.

Which isn't to say that we can't pound North Korea into the ground if we need to, but fighting a major ground war isn't much of an option for us right now; the South Koreans would need to be the ones doing that.

On the other hand, China may indeed be thinking about doing something about Kim.

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Hmm, if that article is indeed correct, it seems that the DPRK isn't nearly as stable as I thought. I mean, I knew that Kim had to flex his military muscle to stay in power, but I did not think there had been coup attempts and riots in Pyongyang, essentially the city with the best quality of life in North Korea and inhabited only by those considered loyal to the party. Since those revolts seem to have been started by the North Korean elite, it wouldn't be all that unlikely that a significant portion of the army would be reluctant to fight or would just plain surrender if other countries were to invade. Unlike the average North Korean, those people know what happens in the outside world, and they know that they'd get blown into pieces sooner or later.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Nevermind either that the North Korean army uses their Kalashnikovs to till fields in the off-season.

How ya doing, buddy?

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On the other hand, China may indeed be thinking about doing something about Kim.

Interesting article, thank you for pointing that out.

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Hmm, if that article is indeed correct, it seems that the DPRK isn't nearly as stable as I thought. I mean, I knew that Kim had to flex his military muscle to stay in power, but I did not think there had been coup attempts and riots in Pyongyang, essentially the city with the best quality of life in North Korea and inhabited only by those considered loyal to the party. Since those revolts seem to have been started by the North Korean elite, it wouldn't be all that unlikely that a significant portion of the army would be reluctant to fight or would just plain surrender if other countries were to invade. Unlike the average North Korean, those people know what happens in the outside world, and they know that they'd get blown into pieces sooner or later.

True, although frankly, what we're all really waiting for is to see how the Chinese behave, a Chinese coup would probably be the best option. Besides, China doesn't have much affection for the Hermit Kingdom, it merely keeps it as a bargianing chip, possibly for Taiwan. However, if the DPRK gets rowdy enough to force Japan and SK to militarize, its more of a liability, so I see a Chinese coup as likely.

FELIPE NO

I just watched a video done by ABC where a reporter was actually allowed in to North Korea to interview the people there. Despite knowing very little about the outside world they had extremely negative views on America.

They claimed we were evil and bad. They claimed we were nothing to them. That we caused the world pain and suffering. That North Korea is great and powerfull in comparison. Even when the news reporter tried to explain to them about our medicine, money, or technology they would just shake their head and deny it.

They didn't even seem to accept that South Korea was doing so well. It was all just praise for North Korea. That America and the rest of the world was evil. That North Korea was powerful and that we were afraid of them.

Though, despite hating America so much they were still kind to her. An old man even allowed her into his home after he got done telling her that he's glad North Korea has the bomb and that North Korea can now put pressure on the US. A young girl said she had no interest in anything that had to do with America. Whether it be art, music, and so on. But she played a game of bowling with the reporter and bowed to the reporter when she left.

It's kind of confusing. They're told we're so evil. But when someone from that evil country comes around some of them are still kind to them. Even if they hate us.

It kind of saddens me. Because if it comes to any kind of confrontation all those people, who actually look decent, will sacrifice themselves for a lie and a broken country they believe is so great. It also makes me wonder if any kind of confrontation would be wise at all. If they believe that stuff so strongly I doubt they'd change their point of view even if they saw with their own eyes that the world is alot better.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

It's because they don't actually hate us. Those people watch South Korean television (even though they risk being re-educated), and they understand just how shitty their lives are in comparison.

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It could probably be all a public stunt to make the US people and possibly the rest of the world believe that N. Korea hates the world and wants to blow everything up, etc.

Kinda sad. But this could easily be seen as a propaganda tool, possibly for both sides.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Or it's just their way of showing off their superiority. They'll willingly express their utmost hatred for you, but in an interesting twist, they won't treat you like the crap they see you as. Instead, they'll be mature about it. As a result, they think they aren't acting like scum - which is how they see you.

Wow, looks like North Korea and the world in general has something in common.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.