Convert to Islam, or die.

Originally Posted by Dubble

If you were in the same high pressure life threatening situation and someone demanded that you convert to Islam (or any other religion for that matter) or die by a bullet to the back of your head and you had no way out, would you renounce God or whatever your beliefs may be just to escape alive? Or would you stand by your convictions and what you believe in - ultimately taking the bullet and/or hoping/praying that you get out of the situation unscathed? The journalists renounced what they believed in to make it out alive, do you think they made the right decision or the wrong one? How do you see it?

1) When you "convert" to Islam, you do not renounce God. I just want to point this out to begin with.

2) Under no circumstances should a non-muslim be forced to take islam as his religion because it's against everything islam stands for.

3) These Extremists have nothing to do with Islam. This is something that all Muslims agree on: They are doing everything that Islam DOESN'T stand for, in the name of Islam. It's like saying I hate racism and then spit on someone who's different while going to a non-racist conference!

4) So the conclusion is: The thing the kidnappers did was SO WRONG! Islam should never be forced upon someone because it's against what Islam stands for. End of story.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'd say that if it really came down to it, I wouldn't convert. Sure, I'd probably be dead, but like han89 said, they're essentially preaching a perverted form of Islam, which I have no respect for (I do respect Muslims in general though, just not the ones who preach, breathe, sleep, and eat hatred for anyone who isn't following the same exact guidelines they are).

Also, suppose you convert, but they don't let you go back to your home? What if they made you stick around in a Muslim community, to see if you're really serious about "converting"? It wasn't brought up very much in this topic, but suppose that happened? Would you still convert?

Even though I don't always act it, I consider myself a Christian, and during a "test" like that, I won't deny Jesus (because I really believe what Jesus said about denying Him before men, and in turn He would deny you before God and the angels).

The way I looked at this thread, it'd be like a KKK member forcing you to convert to Christianity (yes, I know, white supremacists are much more complex, but then again, so are Islamic terrorists, so I'm keeping it simple). I just couldn't in good conscience do that, nor would I force my beliefs upon someone else under threat of death.

I think the problem with organized religion in general is that although they preach that you should live in this way, not everyone who's in that faith practices it. And unfortunately only the bad stuff usually gets remembered, so people bash them for that stuff.

Assuming I didn't answer the way I did above, threatening to kill me wouldn't really make me convert anyway. If anything, I'd be more resistant to it (particularly if I've heard nothing but bad stuff). On the other hand, if they showed me the good aspects of Islam, and letting me live among them to see how Islam would benefit me and others, then I'd probably be more likely to consider it.

I think that's one of the problems nowadays, people try to force their beliefs onto others, but then either don't practice what they preach, or just tell me I'm going to hell because I don't believe in so-and-so. Heck, most of my life I was anti-religion as well, and was wondering why anyone even bothered believing in that stuff. Then I read the Bible for myself, and began to see the stuff that goes on in there, and although there are some discrepancies, just the stuff I read was enough to convince me that being a Christian would be worth it for me. Strangely enough, a lot of this stuff that interested me, no Christians ever bothered to tell me about it (such as how people will often do good deeds simply to be seen and praised for it. But Jesus explained that if you do it in relative secret, God would see it and reward you for it).

Sorry for the long post, figured I'll post something hopefully worth reading

How ya doing, buddy?

Valueing your own religion more than your own life is directly in line with the ideal terrorist.

That said, I'm astonished at the mass stupidity in this thread. As if "converting" actually means anything if forced at gunpoint. No need for false pride.

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Originally Posted by Gecko3

Also, suppose you convert, but they don't let you go back to your home? What if they made you stick around in a Muslim community, to see if you're really serious about "converting"? It wasn't brought up very much in this topic, but suppose that happened? Would you still convert?

Suppose you do convert and they let you go home. Will you stay on the religion you were converted to? 99.99% of the time it will be NO. So the chances are once you convert to their Islam, you will not be released and be forced to stay with them under their Islam. And stick around in their Muslim community will mean becoming a terrorist, so until you are ready to become a terrorist, then the answer is: NO I won't convert!

Originally Posted by Gecko3

Even though I don't always act it, I consider myself a Christian, and during a "test" like that, I won't deny Jesus (because I really believe what Jesus said about denying Him before men, and in turn He would deny you before God and the angels).

The Islam that these terrorists claim to be following has a hatred to Christians and Jews. While the real Islam clearly says that Jesus IS a prophet of christianity and he is as much of a prophet to us (I am a Muslim just so you know who lives in a mixed community between christians and muslims) as Mohammed (the last of the prophets) is. true Islam never denies Jesus and sees him the same way Christians see him.

Originally Posted by Gecko3

The way I looked at this thread, it'd be like a KKK member forcing you to convert to Christianity (yes, I know, white supremacists are much more complex, but then again, so are Islamic terrorists, so I'm keeping it simple). I just couldn't in good conscience do that, nor would I force my beliefs upon someone else under threat of death.

Like the KKK was refused by MANY to just white people, these groups are considered as much bad as the KKK to the Muslims. Like Racism is refused, so is these groups preachings!

Originally Posted by Gecko3

I think the problem with organized religion in general is that although they preach that you should live in this way, not everyone who's in that faith practices it. And unfortunately only the bad stuff usually gets remembered, so people bash them for that stuff.

Totally agree. To see what Islam is truly about, I would suggest a movie called "Al Rissala" (The Message) which is an arabic old movie that was translated to English or French (not sure which one though) and that talks about the life of the Prophet Mohammed (like The Passion Of The Christ). It is the perfect exemple to see what the TRUE original Islam was all about.

Originally Posted by Gecko3

Assuming I didn't answer the way I did above, threatening to kill me wouldn't really make me convert anyway. If anything, I'd be more resistant to it (particularly if I've heard nothing but bad stuff). On the other hand, if they showed me the good aspects of Islam, and letting me live among them to see how Islam would benefit me and others, then I'd probably be more likely to consider it.

Which is the way the prophet said Islam should be preached. By showing the good aspect of it. Not by pointing a gun to the head of someone and telling him: CONVERT OR DIE!!!

I was speaking idiomatically.

My beliefs are in my heart. Words are just words. If it means getting out of there alive, of course I'd say anything they wanted.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Rock

That said, I'm astonished at the mass stupidity in this thread. As if "converting" actually means anything if forced at gunpoint. No need for false pride.

Ah come off it, people were simply answering the question put to them at the start of the thread:

Quote:

If you were in the same high pressure life threatening situation and someone demanded that you convert to Islam (or any other religion for that matter) or die by a bullet to the back of your head and you had no way out, would you renounce God or whatever your beliefs may be just to escape alive? Or would you stand by your convictions and what you believe in - ultimately taking the bullet and/or hoping/praying that you get out of the situation unscathed?

There's no need to question intelligence based on opinion. If you were told to convert at gunpoint it wouldn't affect you, but renouncing their faith in any way, shape of form could put incredible guilt on others, y'know?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Dubble

... You also may have heard of several Al-Quieda members who released a tape with an American-Saudi man who also urged americans to basically "convert or die." Anyways, thier account stated that the kidnappers held guns to the backs of thier heads, ordered them to renounce God (and what I would assume is ties to thier country as well) and basically convert to Islam on the spot or die right there.

To me, an act like that almost seems ghoulishly similar to the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades by comparison but it also brings up a good question:

If you were in the same high pressure life threatening situation and someone demanded that you convert to Islam (or any other religion for that matter) or die by a bullet to the back of your head and you had no way out, would you renounce God or whatever your beliefs may be just to escape alive? Or would you stand by your convictions and what you believe in - ultimately taking the bullet and/or hoping/praying that you get out of the situation unscathed? The journalists renounced what they believed in to make it out alive, do you think they made the right decision or the wrong one? How do you see it?

Ok i must say i'm very satisfied with the way the discussion went after this intro, which i thought would lead to some sort of shit-flinging contest. Everyone here except Soluzar seems to have a healthy mindset about it.

Let me clear two things up though, as a past muslim (Athiest now) :

1- Islam never stated you can do that, and there is a verse that specifically orders not to ask a person to convert or else, and i mean or else ANYTHING, not just death : It's porhibited to force them by offering any unpleasant alternative, even if that alternative's clipping his toe-nails, if that discomforts the person in question . : So this fanatic is acting out of his ass, against Islam's teaching.

2- Islam states that the prophet Muhammed was asked about being in such a situation (if you're a muslim) and being asked to announce your disbelief in islam in exchange for your life, and he said that if you fear any harm you can say that you don't to save your life, as long as you still believe in it in your heart. Clearly stated "hadeeth" (reports about the prophet's sayings).

Just had to state that to be fair. I'm against the idea of religion in general, but also against misleading actions.

Also, Soluzar is a liar.

One more thing : Although you CAN lie and "convert" to save your life , if it's a situation that can lead to many people following suit (because they thought you took it in by heart) or any other case that would shake the foundations of belief/representation of islam in other people's minds you would be responsible to stand by your beliefs. If something little such as one's life is at stake then it's ok to lie (according to the prophet) but anything causing mass confusion or damage should be handled in another way. You get my point.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I would probably just convert to their religion until I could get the fuck out of there and then not think anything more of it. Then I would then go home and get back to my normal life and not practice that stupid religion at all. Just because I converted and they think I have their religious label stamped on my forehead doesn't mean jackshit to me if deep down inside I think it's a bunch of bullshit.

As for the journalists, they did the right thing. If they had clung to their beliefs and laughed in the face of death, I'd doubt their captors would have a change of heart and let them go on account of their bravery and how they stuck to their own convictions. Their captors are one-minded extremist motherfuckers who want to convert everyone to their one true religion. I'm sick of people trying to force their religious beliefs on other people. Don't they have anything better to do?

This has nothing to do with the question...

Spoiler:

But when I first saw the topic title I thought of this:



And this nigger holding a gun to your head saying, "Vote or die!"

Anyone good with photoshop want to photoshop a gun in his hand to make the picture more fitting? His finger is already outstretched to pull the trigger!

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Maico

that stupid religion

I'm sure you wouldn't like someone saying that about your religion would you?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

My views on it, well what they said was kinda out of place. I just think people need to relax and love one another.

Thats pretty much it. They dont seem to understand that, which is ok, because they will have to learn one day.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I'm really into my faith (Catholic [remember the religious debates at the old Gamingforce?]), so I'd gladly die so I wouldn't deny Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I don't have as much respect for extremists in anything, to be honest (I'm a moderate-lean-liberal in my faith), and I know that Moslemsin general are good people, so these people really don't scare me at all.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Whilst I'm not a steadfast practionier of the christian faith, I wouln't give them the satisfaction of the deed, I'm a believer of Jesus dieing for our sins and I'm not going to throw that back at his face for my own life.

Quite frankly, I'd attempt to take out as many of them before they do so to me if such an occasion arised and they instigated it.
And, no, that's not me signing up at the war office.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by han89

I'm sure you wouldn't like someone saying that about your religion would you?

He doesn't seem to have a religion. (Maybe you meant "beliefs"?)

Most religions use faith to justify them and faith is (essentially) believing something without having reasonable evidence. I think that's pretty fucking stupid, but if you don't, be my guest.

I'd convert for as long as needed. The beauty of atheism is there's no sins. lol

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Dubble

At any rate, if you've been watching the news then you probably heard about the two journalists that got kidnapped somewhere over in Iraq by a group of extremists.

Are you talking about the two Fox journalists - Steve Centanni and Olaf Wiig? This was in GAZA CITY NOT IRAQ!!:lolsign:

FELIPE NO

I'm not even religious, so if some crazy Islamic extremists want me to say "blah blah blah Allah, blah blah blah Muhammad blah blah blah" to save my life then sure, its not like it really means anything to me. I sure as hell ain't gonna throw away my life just because I refuse to say something that holds no meanin for me.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by taytsay

I'm really into my faith (Catholic [remember the religious debates at the old Gamingforce?]), so I'd gladly die so I wouldn't deny Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I don't have as much respect for extremists in anything, to be honest (I'm a moderate-lean-liberal in my faith), and I know that Moslemsin general are good people, so these people really don't scare me at all.

Moslemsim? :eyebrow:
They're MUSLIMS. And they'll act as good people until they're enough to continue the Jihad.
With the current situation, anything below paranoia is too insecure. And you're in the US, which (because of its location) is more secure than our weakling, politically-correctness driven Europe.

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I'd probably choose death, mainly because living in a world full of believers in any fundamentalist religion would suck.

I tend to revel in that which most people consider bad habits, such as smoking, drinking, premarital sex. Some religious denominations are even picky about music and books, and since I like listening to Rock and reading the likes of Allen Ginsberg, I'd pretty much have nothing left to do with myself.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by x86

Moslemsim? :eyebrow:
They're MUSLIMS. And they'll act as good people until they're enough to continue the Jihad.
With the current situation, anything below paranoia is too insecure. And you're in the US, which (because of its location) is more secure than our weakling, politically-correctness driven Europe.

I don't know man. You're making a generalization that isn't logical. Why would you think any random muslim living out their lives in the world would personally care about waging a holy war on everyone else? What on earth would bring me to go out and buy the gun that my broke college student ass can't afford, go around waving it and trying to convert people to Islam? I'm certainly not encouraged to do so by the Qu'ran, and in fact I'm even told not to. So like the law of human psychology goes, if you see anyone doing something, it's because the benefits of doing so are greater than its costs or at least equal and this applies to muslims too. So all those people out there waging Jihads and whatnot, they think that there's some problem (Israeli occupation issues, American political interference, whatever) that is inconvenient enough to make them stop living their daily lives, pick up guns, risk and in some cases even freely give up their lives to try and make a difference happen. And to also misquote/represent the Qu'ran so they can pick up moral support and numbers on the way. Not the best or the most effective way, but that's all they know how to.

Anyway, back on topic, hell yeah would I 'convert' to whatever you want me to save my life. I'll put my Intro to Acting class skills on full throtle and reduce you to tears with my religious fervour, in fact, the CNN news footage of it might even be up for an Oscar Award. But dude, to actually convert? That's like asking me to renounce gravity. I couldn't do it even if I tried. I have a certain way that I feel the world and morality works that is synonymous with my religious views, and unless you can convince me otherwise, it'll still hold like the way we believe in atoms or the way in the ancients believed in the four elements.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

First of all...I don't think that the extremists are doing Jihad.In Islam,Jihad has broader application,not only about war.Jihad is something you do for change,a good change. Even to be back to your own 'good' self is consider as Jihad. Even studying itself is consider as Jihad because by studying,you change yourself to be more knowledgeable.

About 'convert or die' issue....there is no forced in religion. Religion is deeply connected to faith. Even if you convert but your heart is not....that is not a 'true' convert. One who convert must do anything that has prescribed to him/her by God. But if he is to do 'ibadah(worship) halfheartedly, nothing good he will get from God; no bounties He'll give to him.

Quote:

from Cryhavoc
2- Islam states that the prophet Muhammed was asked about being in such a situation (if you're a muslim) and being asked to announce your disbelief in islam in exchange for your life, and he said that if you fear any harm you can say that you don't to save your life, as long as you still believe in it in your heart. Clearly stated "hadeeth" (reports about the prophet's sayings).

This Hadeeth is true. You can lie just to save/preserve your life. Life is considered as a trust from God.To preserve it is to preserve your faith even though to die in His way is more honorable. It's just a matter of time whether you'll got to Heaven fast or slow.

I'm a Muslim. If you ask me whether I agree to what those filthy extremists have done.......I just feel like killing them for they create islamophobia.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Dubble

I'm not really sure if this is better suited to the political palace or here. Mods if you think it needs to be moved feel free and sorry for any inconvenience.

At any rate, if you've been watching the news then you probably heard about the two journalists that got kidnapped somewhere over in Iraq by a group of extremists. You also may have heard of several Al-Quieda members who released a tape with an American-Saudi man who also urged americans to basically "convert or die." Anyways, thier account stated that the kidnappers held guns to the backs of thier heads, ordered them to renounce God (and what I would assume is ties to thier country as well) and basically convert to Islam on the spot or die right there.

To me, an act like that almost seems ghoulishly similar to the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades by comparison but it also brings up a good question:

If you were in the same high pressure life threatening situation and someone demanded that you convert to Islam (or any other religion for that matter) or die by a bullet to the back of your head and you had no way out, would you renounce God or whatever your beliefs may be just to escape alive? Or would you stand by your convictions and what you believe in - ultimately taking the bullet and/or hoping/praying that you get out of the situation unscathed? The journalists renounced what they believed in to make it out alive, do you think they made the right decision or the wrong one? How do you see it?

The journalists convictions were not strong enough to be stood by and so they made their choice.

I, personally would never change mine for any reason.

Haz.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Eh, they think we want to hear their lies, so let's asssume they play by the golden rule, thus meaning we can assume they want to hear lies as well, and pretend to convert. Play their game that they're so insistent on everyone playing, use their rules against them.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

The enstict of self survival would make someone reject religious beliefs,what good would make to someone say "no i love god" and then be dead by enemy,or to say "i love allah" and then be dead by christian soldiers on the battlefield?All that matters is survival.After that when you are ok,you can kill those who captured you or those that forced you change your beliefs.If you are a dead man you can change nothing.Right?

Best regards

FELIPE NO

My faith isn't strong, I'm not a religious person with strong unyeilding beliefs. I'm what I like to call, 'Christian-Agnostic' but I'm on the verge of being an all out athiest. If I were in a life or death situtation like that I'd convert in a heartbeat, and I believe those reporters did the right thing. For one, they saved their own lives, two it set an example of what anyone should do. Just because you convert doesn't mean you have to actually worship and believe. After I convert, at the soonest opportunity, I'd get the hell out of there.

There are only three things I'm willing to die for, and my religion isn't one of them.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I'm theist, but my beliefs specifically tell me to not convert, so I'd have to say no, painful and sad as it might be. Besides, becoming a martyr would be kinda cool... Although the preferable death would be standing waist-deep in the bodies of your enemies while swinging a ridiculously good-looking sword around. Boromir comes to mind. That is cool.

But If one thinks about it, depending on what religion a theist is a part of, he/she has more reason to not convert than an athiest. A theist would be afraid of God for the decisions he/she would make, but what reason does an atheist have not to convert to save his/her life, the one they'd never get to relive? Not any good, logical reason, I'd have to say. And indeed, unless there is a better deal waiting on the "other side", it would be irrational to not save your skin by converting.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I feel that if someone converts for the wrong reasons (IE. family lineage, fads, to show independence...etc) then I don't they really mean it. If it's a question of life or death though, then those are different circumstances. I would like to say that I would never convert even if there was a gun to my head (or the threat of torture), but it's always easy to talk big when you're sitting at home.....

There's nowhere I can't reach.