I can't be alone in this.

There seems to be a few different things being discussed at once here. Regarding the idea that you* can't stand anyone who's not a dick, bewilderment. Criticism of people who are passive aggressive, that I get. And to the disbelieve of some, yes, those sort of people very much do exist. They have a mindset that problems should be obvious from their reactions and it means a lot to that sort of person that the other party can recognize it and correct things without communication, or from their point of few, intervention. It's not always about fear of confrontation. It won't seem genuine of their mate/friend/family member if they are told that something is wrong, there seems to be no motivation of actual care when others are following instructions given. This is of course a warped viewpoint and everyone I've ever known like this are damned stubborn to break the habit.

But if you're going to go ahead and link together everyone mild mannered, laid back, anyone who holds back from being an asshole, lumping them all together with the extremely passive, you've lost me. Having no preference on where to go for lunch does not make you the scum of the earth, sorry. Nor does steering clear of contradicting your hothead boss.

"Passive," the definition I usually assign to the word is a far cry from the spineless sit in the dark and cry alone many here have very freely associated it to. I think of a passive person as calm and rational. It is not to say that a passive person does not make up their mind, it's that they try to keep from knee jerk reactions and actually give a little thought to even the smallest clear cut things before they do. And when they have, they have the courtesy not to impose their will upon anyone who disagrees. I do agree, though, that it's when a person lets their strongest convictions slide, that's a quality far from admirable.

I'm suggesting that there's a happy medium in this. I'd much rather have my circle include passive people than oppressive sorts. Scratch that, the people I know ARE like that. You think nothing is said and eggshells are walked on constantly? Far from it. Everyone I know is open and honest. We can debate our differences without hating each other. That's what it means to be passive to me. Tolerant. Withholding hasty judgement. Being willing to see yourself in the situation of others. It baffles me as to how these are character flaws.

*the crowd in general

Edit: Additional thought. Again, at the far end of the curve I would agree that this is bad, but I don't believe compromise to the point of sacrifice in moderation is so horrible. As long as there's acceptance in place of silent resentment, doing things you'd really rather not for the sake of others is a part life, of civility. This is all based on personal thresholds, of course, and is not to suggest that major lines would ever be crossed for the sake of benefiting others.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I think everyone agrees that the far ends of the curve are bad, Doctah. I wanted to avoid that, and also to avoid the "in moderation passivity is something I can deal with / I am mildly or moderately passive" but I guess that was unrealistic. I mean, what else can you really say other than "some I can tolerate but others I cannot"?

I'm going to avoid the lengthy treatise on assertive people not being intrinsically bad listeners or incapable in mind and body to doing anything. If you think assertive people can't hang out with folks that they disagree with on unrelated matters but otherwise like, you're delusional.*

Simply put, like asking whether shyness is a quality that attracts you to people, I wanted to know if you are attracted to passive folks and are otherwise not-creepy. I should've just said that in my first post.

* How can assertive people stand each other then? You would think you'd hear something about that by now.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by a lurker

* How can assertive people stand each other then? You would think you'd hear something about that by now.

Perhaps they are too passive to voice their true feelings and thus the issue remains obscure.

I was speaking idiomatically.

My hubby and I are both very assertive, although he is a man of few words. We butt heads a lot, but I wouldn't have him any other way. I'm not interested in anyone who isn't feisty like me.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Encephalon

Why do I get the feeling that this is somehow derogatory in nature?

Ack, that actually wasn't meant to be offensive in any way. I suppose it's too late to just put an emoticon with its tongue sticking out, but I definitely didn't mean that seriously. Sorry about that, man.

FELIPE NO

Actually, if I'm addressing the main question here, an assertive person is much more desirable in a relationship setting. To be straightforward with you significant other is vital to relationship health, the trick is to never make things petty. The ideal person would maintain a balance, being as forward as a serious situation might demand and restrained over minor annoyances. I guess I view most day to day occurrences just don't hold that sort of weight on average, so I'll come out arguing that in an average setting it's better to be passive, or at least it is not a damnable quality. And, yes, from where I sit, I envision more problems within group full of leaders than a group full of followers but I wasn't attempting to claim all out chaos for that crowd.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Then I will point you to Encephalon's example, wherein his group of friends are all 'leaders' in different areas. Although it's silly to think every group will end up that way, it's also silly to think every group will instead fight over McDonalds vs Burger King.

There is also the case of day-by-day passivity taking its toll on your partner. I did not like deciding everything all the time, and being the bad guy in relationship problems. If the passive person doesn't say anything when there's a problem, then there's no problem from their end, which means they're okay with it, which means if you're not okay with it then there must be something wrong with you. That's not fair.

Of course, my experience may be unique, but I doubt it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by a lurker

Anyway, by passive I mean just that, Enceph. I guess in matters of degrees, they never voice what they want to eat for dinner or go out and watch, and you find out much later that they were always annoyed by something you did and wouldn't tell you yourself. That sort of level of passive.

AAHHHHHH!

I think always taking the initiative would get annoying really fast. I personally love the stubborn, intelligent and headstrong type personality since these people are energizing to be around. In short, I wouldn't seek out a passive person, that would annoy the hell out of me.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Quote:

If the passive person doesn't say anything when there's a problem, then there's no problem from their end, which means they're okay with it, which means if you're not okay with it then there must be something wrong with you. That's not fair.

But what if there's genuinely no problem from that end? Is it so hard to believe that being alright with things isn't an act? They should be sympathetic to what troubles you, sure, but if you find this happening constantly, dunno, maybe you aren't just imagining you're too touchy. Should they force themselves to care? Must be taxing on that person having treat everything like it's something substantial. I've witnessed and had those sorts of conversations before.

"I am ALWAYS taking care of such and such and you just assume that I'll take care of it, and I'm tired of it."

I am thinking, yes, pretty much, you have a point. You sound a little bit past the point of annoyance, though, yet this is the first I'm hearing about it. So she has a point and this shit really isn't worth an argument. I'll be apologetic. I will agree, say I didn't realize such and such particular thing got to her, and tell her I will try to improve.

"No, but you don't get it, you haven't been doing whatever whatever and it's always left up to me."

She doesn't really care to resolve anything at this point. She's just pissed and wants me to know it, wants to win an argument I'm not going to participate in. I'll repeat myself, she'll repeat herself. She wants me to get mad because how in the world get anything really get done without outbursts? And I do get a little pissed. I don't ask her to do this. She doesn't ask me to do this. And if she did, I would, but she doesn't, so I don't which makes it my fault for not doing what she was thinking. My god this argument is retarded.

"You never X either."

Jesus Christ, what? X will be some tiny act of neglect I did once three weeks ago.

The decisions you keep on making that the passive never does are things you should be doing for yourself and not lumping together you both as an item. Passive people realize this and that's why they don't understand how upset someone can be over natural apathy of their personal values over inconsequential things. Personal. You know, the ones that belong to them. There should be give and take, you should both compromise as long as the issue is put out in the open, but by and large, don't try force others to care as long as they aren't the problem.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Sorry to butt right in but

By the way you described passive, I would venture to say that I'm actually one of them sans the complaining after being dragged everywhere or force fed food I really didn't want to eat. I don't speak much even with my own friends and basically keep to myself:

1) English is not my native tongue and my words keep getting mixed up
2) I really don't care what I eat. My parents told me that African babies are starving so stop bitching about the pizza! At least you have something in your stomach.
3) I don't care where we go. I've actually lost so many friends moving around alot that just being indecisive with your friends is a joy for me.
4) I'm just naturally shy (but that doesn't mean I take crap from everyone, I just don't want to create a social mess that will bite me in the ass and one which I will have to clean up later)
5) I think that some people decide too quickly and that makes me look passive since I like to think things through. It's actually smart to not just jump right in like alot of aggressive people do.
6) I may have a submissive streak I really don't know about

So please, don't hate us passies. We have our reasons for being the way we are and being thought of as pansies is actually the last thing on our minds.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Wow Uzuki, you sure do talk a lot.

Anyway, I'm not going to try to debate anything, I'll just add my 2 cents from a recent relationship. I started dating this girl, and eventually came to realize that she was uber-passive to the extent that it started annoying the hell out of me. Almost ANY question I would ask would have an "I don't know" or "I don't care" response. I've never been so annoyed with passivity as I was with her. I've come to realize I need someone with opinions on things (hopefully more similar than different to my own). I mostly connect passivity to opinion. If you have a strong opinion, good. If you can stand up for it in a crowd of haters, even better, but not necessary, just have an opinion please.

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Just wait till I get going. Now where was I? Ah, yes, Australia. I have a lot to say on the subject because I have both a lot of experience with it and feel the call to counterpoint those who want to dismiss this faster than they shut the door on a Jehovah's Witness. Good on you for one lining my defense of the unpopular opinion in here only to state how you dislike people who don't do just that. Zinger to contradiction in 100 words or less. I should strive for your conciseness.

I wouldn't call the mental laziness to avoid from mulling over any subject being passive. I'd call it being vacant. Or just not being compatible enough with you to be comfortable having even a semi-serious conversation. I'm pretty sure she had talks at length with the guy she was cheating on you with, after she caught her breath from the explosive, multiple orgasms.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Quote:

Good on you for one lining my defense of the unpopular opinion in here only to state how you dislike people who don't do just that. Zinger to contradiction in 100 words or less. I should strive for your conciseness.

I was zinging the amount of text you're using to state an opinion, not the fact that you had one.

(OH SNAP 1-LINE ZINGER #2)

Quote:

I wouldn't call the mental laziness to avoid from mulling over any subject being passive. I'd call it being vacant.

Good for you.

(DAMN #3 on a ROLL)

FELIPE NO

Passive people are aggrevating to me. Especially in a relationship. I'd rather be alone than with someone who is intellectually transparent, even if it means I have to fuck myself every night.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Dr. Uzuki

But what if there's genuinely no problem from that end?

There were problems, yes. I found out later that he would vent to his friends - not a bad thing in and of itself - but would not tell me about what he was bothered by.

Quote:

You sound a little bit past the point of annoyance, though, yet this is the first I'm hearing about it. I will agree, say I didn't realize such and such particular thing got to her, and tell her I will try to improve.

"No, but you don't get it, you haven't been doing whatever whatever and it's always left up to me."

Were you the one who was saying that passive people tend to be more perspective, and also prefer that their significant others divine what was bothering them and fix it on their own, without being told?

I'm only bringing that up because the rest of your argument sounds like you're solidly in that camp, but you expect her to tell you when something bothers her before it becomes annoying.

Quote:

The decisions you keep on making that the passive never does are things you should be doing for yourself and not lumping together you both as an item. Passive people realize this and that's why they don't understand how upset someone can be over natural apathy of their personal values over inconsequential things.

UM.

It has been in my experience that this is not true. The quality of letting someone deal with their shit on their own is not in the slightest an aspect of passivity.* Uh, but you need to talk to your woman about this instead of venting on the internet to people who can't effect your relationship.

* Over-controlling, passive people can be seen in passive-agressives and internet circle-jerks ("I DON'T LIKE FIGHTING SO LET'S EVERYONE SHUT UP NOW").

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Quote:

Were you the one who was saying that passive people tend to be more perspective, and also prefer that their significant others divine what was bothering them and fix it on their own, without being told?

No no no. I said that passive people tend to not react immediately. This does not make them more perceptive. They can still come to flawed conclusions. And I stated that the passive aggressive is the sort that wants their girl/boy friend to read minds. Similar wording but very different classifications.

Quote:

The quality of letting someone deal with their shit on their own is not in the slightest an aspect of passivity.

No smugness intended, but could you expound on this? Because it sounds as if our definitions are very far apart.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'm the wanna be white knight that wants to sweep in and rescue as many people as possible yet I'm nuerotic(sp) b/c I know that I don't have anyone to save and never will.

For the most part though, I'm a push over unless you take it too far and then I snap.

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I'm passive, in a way. I am a leader, yet however, at the same time, I will not make a decision. I am passive in that way. I will toss around suggestions that I'd like to do and that the group would like to do and then it's up to EVERYBODY to decide or give their input as well. If nobody wants to give their input, I'll fuck off, and leave and go elsewhere with the people who wanted to do the similar things as me.

I am impatient, and I hate it when people won't decide. (Even though myself, I will not decide unless I am asked what I want to do and that it is my choice.)

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

It's not something I seek, but that is the way my boyfirend is, he is very passive, and I feel like I am the boss or something... I want it to work both says. I even encourgae him to have more confidence, but it doesn't seem to work.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Dr. Uzuki

No smugness intended, but could you expound on this? Because it sounds as if our definitions are very far apart.

Sure. Assertive people don't care about running someone else's life for them. What they do care about is making other people know what their opinion is.

For instance, whenever some idiot in angst ignores everyone's suggestions for help, and the assholes start appearing who tell him to shape up or ship out.

Passive people are entirely capable of extreme clinginess. take for example tight-knit internet communities full of furries. They enable each other's behavior towards a downward spiral - not the furporn, but (for instance) living with their parents, avoiding work or higher education, applauding each other's bad art. It gets pretty creepily close sometimes.

There are also, of course, the passive-agressives who strive to annoy everyone around them eternally. That's a form of control in that it's impossible to have a good mood around them for long, among other things of course.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Reznor

I am impatient, and I hate it when people won't decide. (Even though myself, I will not decide unless I am asked what I want to do and that it is my choice.)

Why don't you have more compassion and tolerance to people like yourself? Alternately, why don't you push yourself to being more decisive?

ps you're a bad leader :bobofrowny:

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Originally Posted by a lurker

Why don't you have more compassion and tolerance to people like yourself? Alternately, why don't you push yourself to being more decisive?

ps you're a bad leader :bobofrowny:

I WILL decide, but only if people ASK ME to. If not, I run on majority vote.
I'll toss ideas, but I won't decide unless people ASK ME what *I* want to do or leave it up to me.

I feel like I'm intruding otherwise.

FELIPE NO

Eh, okay. I'm going to avoid going in depth about semantics. I agree with most of what people in this thread have outlined as bad qualities, particularly in a mate. I'm just not comfortable assigning the all encompassing title of "passive" to every single one of these traits. Especially when my friends describe me as, and I quote, "THE most passive person EVER." In association with this thread, ouch.

But I'm not at all like what's being described here, other than the fact that I'm not often a leader. I do stand up for myself. I'm not afraid to state my opinions. If I want to go to Taco Bell for lunch, I will be eating a goddamned burrito. I don't engage in faggotry over flaws to celebrate them. I don't hold secret grudges.

I still consider myself and I'm thought of by others as passive. Without all that ugliness attached to it, am I still doomed to be resented by the better half of mankind?

How ya doing, buddy?

I'm passive and I don't mind passive people but I like aggressive and sassy people better. They pull me out of my passive state and I become more active. It's kinda like the okay sign for me to be casual and I feel that they won't judge me too harshly because they're more wild and expressive than I am.
So if you want my opion on what we should eat and I say, "whatever" you'll have to be agressive to me in a playful way. I find it fun and it puts me in a cheerful mood when people do that to me.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Those who don't really care about things generally anoy me (Yes I see being apathetic and passive as very closely related). Take a stand on the things that matter, and for those things that don't, let someone else take the reigns. With anything, you should an opinion on it one way or another.

As an example of something trivial: Do I care where we go to eat? Not really, I can find something I like in most places. I won't eat at KFC, McDonald's, or Burger King, nor will I go to the same place all the time. I have an opinion on the matter, despite what may come across as passive.

If you are going to go out, but haven't any real plans, think about what *you* want to do, and propose it. Looking out for #1 is *not* an inherently unapealing trait. Be considerate of the other person of course, but think/do/say what you feel like. Don't hold it back, and if you haven't an opinion on something, damn well think of one.

It's easy enough to have opinions, not force them on others, and to get along well if both people in a relationship are willing to do so. You don't have to be passive, nor do you have to be 'bossy' in order to get along well. You'll only annoy those around you (whether they tell you this or not) if you go too far.

Sincerity and conviction are the most important things. In Lurker's Internet community example, it's insincere, and therefore they are hurting each other in the end.

There's nowhere I can't reach.