Originally Posted by PUG1911
Am I the only one here that finds the idea of wronging another (inflamatory media) to be ok, and the offended should just 'deal with it' attitude amusing? It's like, I can punch you in the nose, but there is nothing wrong with that, as you have the right to punch me right back. See? Everybody is happy in the end! Huh? What do you mean I didn't have a reason to punch you in the nose? I wanted to.
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Physical assault is harmful, satire is not. Do you not see the difference?
Originally Posted by Cyrus XIII
Didn't we already see the same development with african americans? It is bad to say nigger but at the same time, blacks are still the usual suspects when it comes to petty crime, deprived of equal career chances and so on.
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First off, you should know that, historically speaking, it is absolutely true that blacks are more likely to commit petty crimes and whites are more likely to commit the overly heinous crimes. That would be why the average crook is black more often than not, but the average serial killer is white more often than not. This is simple use of statistics here. It is not racist in the least, it is about trends. If history shows someone being more likely to do something than someone else, of course they are more likely to be suspected. Thing is, we in law enforcement may use these trends to get initial suspects, but we use the evidence to find the final answer.
On your second point, I really am sick of people saying blacks (and women) are deprived of equal pay and equal opportunities. Racism still exists, sure, but it is not as widespread as it used to be. I have plenty of black co-workers, and I can say beyond a doubt that they are not held back. Also, as a woman, I definitely can not complain about my opportunities and pay. This is 2006, things are not quite as severe as they used to be. There is still unfair bias (such as people who do not know me thinking I am not that tough because I am a woman), and sure it takes extra work to prove yourself, but hey, that is life. I have no problem with it. In fact, I have to admit that it is quite entertaining to prove people wrong about me.
Originally Posted by Adamgian
As was said above, its not religion, its foreign policy. Read what they say, they aren't attacking the US for being non-Islamic, on the contrary, they don't really give a damn, so long as the US stays out of their affairs. It's because of the US's support of Israel and the way it uses its army in the Gulf that causes problems.
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If Islamic countries would stop trying to obliterate Israel, we might be compelled to stay away. If Palestine would stop being so hypocritical by doing things like speaking of peace and then electing Hamas members to a majority of their "parliament", we might be compelled to stay away. Sadly, that is not the case.
Honestly, if it were up to me, I would sit down with the Israelis and the Palestinians and say: "Look, start getting along or maybe we will just have to take over to make you get along. The United States gets along well enough as a melting pot, so why is it you people seem unable to freaking
share?" Israel has done its fair share of wrong, but as of right now, I believe Palestine has done a greater share of wrong.
Originally Posted by Adamgian
Being represented on South Park is considered an insult. I'm sure you can understand that.
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Listen closely. South Park is fiction. South Park is a cartoon. South Park is not real. Anyone who gets lambasted by it, I say "get over it". To get hostile over a joke is just dumb.
Originally Posted by Skexis
I don't think I stated anything that was particularly venomous, just pointing out that you are overlooking a large part of this argument.
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Really? You called me "robot that does not know how to differentiate between emotions". I certainly consider that "venomous". I doubt there are many people out there who think more independently than I do.
Originally Posted by Skexis
You heard right. The cartoons were made to test the waters.
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Wrong. The cartoons were made to send a message, a message that censorship in fear of retaliation is equal to caving to terrorism. That message is, well, right on the money.
Originally Posted by Skexis
To ask whether or not there would be a large response to Muhammad in a cartoon. once it was made clear that yes, people didn't like it when the prophet was put in the newspaper, and no, they especially didn't like having the whole thing flaunted in their face by the Danish prime minister refusing to meet with Arabic envoys, and other papers "championing the cause of free speech," just because they can, well I think we lost all claims to legitimacy.
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Championing free speech just because is precisely why free speech exists. You know that, right?
Originally Posted by Skexis
You don't need to preach to me. I understand what the first amendment means. That doesn't change the fact that you cannot differentiate between what we have the right to do and what we have the obligation to do, or respect from cowtowing to demands.
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Again, it was a cartoon, a work of fiction. Now if President Bush went on the air crapping all over Muslims, yeah, that would be a bit disrespectful, but this is a cartoon full of toilet humor that tries to entertain while sending messages Rush Limbaugh style (demonstrating obsurdity by being obsurd). They have no obligations, and censoring them because a bunch of people might throw a fit is indeed cowering to demands.
Originally Posted by Skexis
And stop calling it "caving in."
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Well, by definition, that is precisely what it is. Why not call a spade a spade?
Originally Posted by PUG1911
The point of my argument was that going out of one's way to hurt or provoke another *for no reason other than to piss them off* doesn't seem like a great way to use one's freedom of expression. I'm not saying that is the case here, but it could very well be.
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It is fiction. I can not stress this enough. Besides, they were sending a message, not trying to insult people for no reason.
Originally Posted by PUG1911
That you or I don't feel that those insults are on par to an attack on one's person is immaterial by the way. My example was *supposed* to represent something that we could all agree is a dick move, since we can't adequately grasp how the mohamad pictures affect someone with such strong beliefs. But you instead take the opportunity for a 'Haha, they get mad at dumb stuff, not the not-dumb stuff that we would get mad at.'
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Um, no, you compared an action that is "insulting to a single religion" to what is a criminal offense in most countries. Ironically, punching a woman in the face is accepted in Islamic Fundamentalist countries if the woman in question does not follow the letter of religious law.
Better yet, since I am highly offended by the Muslims' gross human rights violations and their blatant mistreatment of women, should I go and threaten to blow up their homes and businesses and such in an attempt to force them to change? I mean, if it is good for the goose, it is good for the gander, right?
I thought not.
Originally Posted by PUG1911
The motivations of the cartoonists are at the heart of the issue. If they are really trying to get across a message, then great. If they are just trying to start shit, then not so great. Either way, they should have the right to do so, and the network sucks for their stance on selective censorship.
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Either which way, we have freedom of speech in this country. Their motives matter not. I would be far more interested in stopping white supremicists from rallying in public than censoring South Park, giving the relative severities of the actions in question. Yet we allow white supremicists to rally in public. Why should we give
anything to the Muslims when we allow
hate groups to march freely? If I were to censor anyone, they would be at the top of the list.
Originally Posted by dope
Should there be special treatment for Muslims? Hmm... the first question is: should they be judged using American standards? Considering that they're in a way different culture I don't this wholly applies. The freedom clause to them is an insult to their race and class. They don't see it as expression due to their very different culture and environment.
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Well I have a definite problem when a culture is so open about human rights violations and mistreatment of women. That is a bit personal for me.
That, however, is real. South Park is not. See the difference? If South Park made fun of women (which it has), then fine, I have no problem with it. It is a work of fiction. I am far more interested in stopping cultures that commit real atrocious acts against women in reality than I am in stopping a cartoon from hurling insults.
As the saying goes, sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. In the case of Muslims, those stones kill women who violate religious law.
Originally Posted by dope
I couldn't believe that there was an earlier generalization that majority of Muslims wanted to destroy Americans. This is the exact sentiment that Muslims and people around the world are against. It's racial prejudice in action. And no matter how much people rally nothing would be resolved.
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That is not racism, it is reality. If it were not, how would Hamas, a known terrorist organization, get such a strong following in Palestine, which happens to have the
full support of the rest of the Islamic community? The proof is in the pudding, as it were. If they want to stop giving off this "die die die" vibe toward us, they need to stop blatantly backing terrorist groups!
Originally Posted by Atomic Duck
Seriously... with the way things are going a few years down the road people will be able to claim racism unless you say nothing more than "hello" and in at least five different languages, but then they can still claim racism because you didn't include theirs. If you're going to worry about who's offended, why the hell even bother at all? Why even have anything on tv past the weather channel?
Everyboy Loves Raymond could be deemed offensive by people who think life should be taken too seriously for jokes. Star Wars could be deemed racist because entire movies in the series had no black people and the one black character it did have got killed. Monkey Ball could be deemed offensive as it has monkeys trapped in balls. Football could be deemed sexist as very few women play.
Might as well not teach World War 2 in history anymore either. I'm sure Italians or people with Italian heritage might get offended over hearing about what their great country took part in. Same goes for Germans and Japanese.
Also, I don't like hearing bad news. Maybe that means all news stations in the Cleveland area should shut down? I know I'm only one in millions of people who live around here, but hey, who cares? One person doesn't like what's being said.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and the only way to truly be fair is to either allow everything or allow nothing at all, and free speech is too vital to deny.
This is a place where when things got started the general idea was that just because a single group of people were opposed to something didn't mean that it automatically had to be censored. I guess we sure raped that one up the ass, didn't we?
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I may be more or less Atheist, but AMEN TO THAT!
There's nowhere I can't reach.