[General Discussion] Games you consider "Perfect"?

Are people actually arguing something based on pure opinion? lewl

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Please read my edit in the above post as well.

Double Post:
We are technically arguing over the definition of "perfect" here. I don't think it begins and ends with gameplay, if i were to create a perfect video game in my mind. It would be perfect in every last area. Period. Thank god FF4 exists because it is, especially for it's time, what i would consider perfect. Now of course the bar has raised a lot and I'm sure we are all still waiting for something perfect to arrive.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Vampiro

Are people actually arguing something based on pure opinion? lewl

You do realize that you can't argue fact, right? All discussion/arguments are based on "pure opinion" as you can't really argue discrepancy in fact. This is a discussion forum after all, better to have a discussion over something than countless list after list, of course.

o lawl u

Also we are not arguing the definition of perfect, because that definition is quite subjective. Rather, we are arguing over what his standards are for perfection, because he seems to claim that both games have an equal level of gameplay value as fact, which is not so.

I was speaking idiomatically.

...as opinion.

But back to the "perfection" thing...
It only matters what we perceieve or want as perfect.

So, can you tell me exactly what you would want?
Or is the answer always going to be as simple as: "The highest entertainment value that I can get" (which i still think is vague, because my highest entertainment value is all of those things i listed before, so what are yours)?

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Originally Posted by Kostaki

Also we are not arguing the definition of perfect, because that definition is quite subjective. Rather, we are arguing over what his standards are for perfection, because he seems to claim that both games have an equal level of gameplay value as fact, which is not so.

Everyone's definition of a "perfect" game heavily relates back to their favorite games, or what they just like, and is their own definition. He likes these games. I don't see the problem with liking 2 games equally.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Elixir

Everyone's definition of a "perfect" game heavily relates back to their favorite games, or what they just like, and is their own definition. He likes these games. I don't see the problem with liking 2 games equally.

There's nothing wrong with it all of course, he's entitled to such. I'm simply pressing as to why he somehow believes that a franchise built on gameplay has equal level gameplay than a franchise build on story and cinematics. He is entitled 100% to his opinion, but as I recall he used to be a rather huge Dragon Quest fan. So for him to say such things has me curious, that's all.

Originally Posted by Borg1982

...as opinion.
But back to the "perfection" thing...
It only matters what we perceieve or want as perfect.

So, can you tell me exactly what you would want?
Or is the answer always going to be as simple as: "The highest entertainment value that I can get" (which i still think is vague, because my highest entertainment value is all of those things i listed before, so what are yours)?

There is no right answer to the question, other than that gameplay is always going to have a higher value than all other elements. Therefore, it has to be highly entertaining as a game before all else. As that holds the most weight in Dragon Quest titles as they are built on gameplay, so comes my reasoning to hold over it Final Fantasy IV. Your perception of "gameplay" is of course influenced by nostalgia, which is fine really.

No need to continue, I was simply looking to see why such a hardcore Dragon Quest fan suddenly lost faith in his series by reducing it to 5th on his list.

How ya doing, buddy?

Stating that a game is perfect is based solely on opinion. That is, the opinion of what perfect actually is. Many people judge based on different elements of the game that they find applicable, or which appeals to them most. That being said, it is pointless to argue over who's view of "perfect" is more valid, because there is no factual definition of perfect (aside from having no flaws lolz) that can be used in this situation.

So in other words..

IT'S SIX IN THE MORNING WHY AM I HERE POSTING

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Quote:

You do realize that you can't argue fact, right? All discussion/arguments are based on "pure opinion" as you can't really argue discrepancy in fact. This is a discussion forum after all, better to have a discussion over something than countless list after list, of course.

o lawl u

Also we are not arguing the definition of perfect, because that definition is quite subjective. Rather, we are arguing over what his standards are for perfection, because he seems to claim that both games have an equal level of gameplay value as fact, which is not so.

You can't argue fact, but this is an argument about perfection. It doesn't exist, especially in games. So questioning someone on why they think two games are equal when you might not believe so is pretty lame. It's his opinion to believe both are equal, whether it be because of strong gameplay or whatever else. Different People find different things in different games.

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Nobody was arguing about who's definition of perfect was the most valid, lol. He raised his own standards up and I argued against his own standard, not my own against his. I wonder how many people will read and respond the same way, heh.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

So you're essentially trying to discredit his opinion using his own logic? Brilliant!


lol arguments about arguments about perfection are neato

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Kostaki

I'm simply pressing as to why he somehow believes that a franchise built on gameplay has equal level gameplay than a franchise build on story and cinematics.

I think the last part of this sentance is wrong. Just because it seems like the FF series is built heavily upon story & cinematics does not mean that they are not trying with regards to gameplay or that the gameplay of a series such as that is going to suck. (Actually, my opinion of it is that, on average, FF gameplay is worse than DW, but I like two of the FF games equally with regards to gameplay as DW games -- FF1 and 4). Also, on the reverse side, a series heavily built on gameplay doesn't automatically mean bad stories. Look at DQ8!

Originally Posted by Kostaki

No need to continue, I was simply looking to see why such a hardcore Dragon Quest fan suddenly lost faith in his series by reducing it to 5th on his list.

Did I have a list that showed DW3 higher than 5?? I was wondering what you meant by this.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Vampiro

So you're essentially trying to discredit his opinion using his own logic? Brilliant!

lol arguments about arguments about perfection are neato

About as brilliant as attempting to throw sarcasm around blindly, really.

Originally Posted by Borg1982

I think the last part of this sentance is wrong. Just because it seems like the FF series is built heavily upon story & cinematics does not mean that they are not trying with regards to gameplay or that the gameplay of a series such as that is going to suck. (Actually, my opinion of it is that, on average, FF gameplay is worse than DW, but I like two of the FF games equally with regards to gameplay as DW games -- FF1 and 4). Also, on the reverse side, a series heavily built on gameplay doesn't automatically mean bad stories. Look at DQ8!

Did I have a list that showed DW3 higher than 5?? I was wondering what you meant by this.

In the past, FF began to lean on story and presentation versus tradition while DQ stuck to it's guns with gameplay. Dragon Quest VIII was also heavily changed between Japan and the US to be more cinematic and presentable. So naturally, there will be bias.

I'm quite surprised if you never had a Dragon Quest in at least first to third spot on your list with as much as you enjoyed discussing and talking about the series. This was partially why I started this argument, to see why you suddenly put other series above it. Suffice to say, I've never quite seen any lists of yours lol.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I regard my top 5 as extremely good. The 6th game, whatever that may be, is a few notches lower than those. I also regard gameplay as the most important thing, just like you. But obviously it would not hurt to add a brilliant storyline, characters, sidequests, etc, to have it be that much better, and thus make it "perfect" or "over the top". That is my entire point. That's why I stayed up til almost 7 tonight. See what I mean?

So I already talked about FF4.... The reason why Shining Force CD and 3 are above DW3 is that I love the strategy gameplay and the fact that the characters are specific classes just like my other favorite games. Gotta love specific classes. Finally, FF1 was more challenging to me than DW3. I can see why DW3 is your fav. though -- the classes are brilliant. And there are more than FF1.

EDIT: The rest of the FF series is below (and in some cases FAR, FAR below) the DW series to me, fyi. Only two games made it up higher -- and not by much. You can rest assured now that I have faith. I also have faith in level 5's ability to make DQ9.

So,
What is your top 5 of RPGs all-time?

I shall leave the thread tonight with that, and hopefully wake up at 1pm to get sleep! Cya!

How ya doing, buddy?

The game is perfect. It's a point and click adventure. It tells a simple, compelling story. The puzzles are varied and unique and use every trick the DS is capable of. The graphics are nice, the music is nice. The art is fantastic. This game is the complete package.


I'm trying to think of a bad point of this game and there are none. It's perfect.

Quote:

So,
What is your top 5 of RPGs all-time?

Is this what this thread is about? Every RPG needs improvement.

Originally Posted by Chairman Kaga

There's no such thing as a perfect game. A perfect game means everything is perfect. Sorry, no such game exists.

Get out AiAi. To be perfect a game merely has to be faultless.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Final Fantasy VI.

I remember it well. I went to a friend's house who had just rented the game. I stated to play Final fantasy VI, facing the Snail creature, quickly finding out how to beat him.

Spoiler:

Don't attack it while it's in it's shell!!!! oooooo

After that, I was hooked. My friend returned the game, only for me to rent it that evening for a weekend. Then I rented it again for another weekend. And then another. Even after I put it on my Christmas list, i still would literally use every penny I could to rent that game and play it.

I vaguely remember if I made it to the

Spoiler:

world of ruin

or not. However, I remember having NO problem starting over.

I remember Christmas day as well. My gparents got the game...Final Fantasy LEGEND 3. OHHHHH the horror! Thankfully, my parents could detect major fake happiness, and my dad actually used his Christmas money to make up the extra amount for the game after he brought the gameback for Final Fantasy 3 U.S.

I literally played the game from the day after Christmas until February, non-stop. I even had to beat the ending twice (my brother basically whined that he wasn'table to watch his t.v. show in which my mom yelled at me to turn the game off despite watching the ending). I eventually made a "tradition" of beating the game each year, from about eighth grade on, when the year ending. I guess I saw the culmination of a school year was similar to a culmination of the game.

I spent countless hours on building my characters levels (in fact, once I learned what the Esper system was all about, I made a totally new game devoted to create ultra powerful characters). Rages, Lores, Mega-Elixers and Elixers, yep, I tried to get it all.

This game was also the only game I can think of that people even managed to start rumors about. No other game could be so good that it had it's own rumor department (notable example would be Seigfried and Leo).

The soundtrack rocked too. Even in my early college years, I would put the entire soundtrack in my CD player to listen to. It was the first video game soundtrack I ever had too.

Top marks all the way!

Jam it back in, in the dark.

one of the most perfect games for me was Final Fantasy 9, it pretty much covered all the bases. sound, graphics, action, a full tour de force for me

How ya doing, buddy?

Yoshi's Island to me, is the perfection of side-scrolling platform games. It has a great variety of levels. They never get repetitive and are well done and often original. The graphics are unique and nicely done pushing the SNES to it's very limits. Plus it had a great amount of secrets including levels and minigames. I guess the only 'bad' things about it is Mario's cries, but really they never bothered me and the fact it has to end eventually.

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Repbulic is another game that is perfect to me. It has a fantastic pseudo non linear storyline that is very engaging and the choices that you make can affect the outcome. It's not as deep as PC RPGs nor as shallow as console RPGs, it has just the right mix of storyline and user control.

I second or third or whatever Super Metroid, Metroid Prime, Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Balcony Heckler

one of the most perfect games for me was Final Fantasy 9, it pretty much covered all the bases. sound, graphics, action, a full tour de force for me

Really? Even with that godawful boss-out-of-nowhere-with-no-real-explanation at the end?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

*finger-crack* Let's get rolling!

(in no particular order)

1) Shenmue 1 -- Voice acting was shit, but I credit that to the translators. The game itself is fucking solid. I love it to death. It's not for everyone, certainly. But it remains at the top of all other games, in my mind. Such a damn unique genre, and the story is fantastic. I just love detective-like games. And it progresses realisitcally. You are on Long Di's trail the whole first game, but never see him after the opening. Always feels like you are so, so far away. But the gap closes one inch at a time.

2) Shenmue 2 -- I got the PAL version of this and boot it up with a boot disk. Holy fuck, I absolutely love it. Ryo gets to Hong Kong, but he loses all his cash. So, his whole goal is sidetracked as he sniffs out jobs for money, just so he can get by. Just like #1, minigames galore. I hope to god that someday, the series resumes... Because I fucking love it.

3) Shining Force 1 -- Ahh, memories... First Genesis RPG that I can recall playing. Story wasn't much to write home about, but I loved the gameplay. First tactical RPG evah~

4) Shining Force 2 -- I REALLY don't need to say much more. Fantastic gameplay AND a good storyline.

5) Shining Force CD -- A little-known release that comprised a graphically updated Sword of Haiyja and the preceding game focusing on Nick. It has a bonus scenario following that, and a boss mode. The music is phenomenal, to boot. I have the full game on a CD around here with a rom sewn to its hip. Its soundtrack is attached as well, o'course!

6) Shining Force III -- Seeing a trend? I've played most of the First Book and love it (muted the voices though. Worst dub job ever... Irene/Airen sounds like Mr. Hankey). It's just more of the same wonderful formula, but gameplay is tweaked. Magic gets stronger as you level. I got such a cackle out of that when I first saw it.

7) Dragon Force 1 -- OMFG. Fantastic game... I always played as Wein initially, then I'd play under that Easternish country... Samurai and all that jazz. I downright love the gameplay and strategy. Get up to 100 men onscreen for your side and order tactics and what-have-you. Duels at just badass. 90% of the time, mages will flee, but if you get down to general-on-general, your dude can challenge the opposing general to a duel. And you just hack the shit out of eachother. I love it <3

8) Lunar: Silver Star Story, Lunar: SSSC, Lunar: Eternal Blue, Lunar: EBC -- I played these on Sega CD as well as their redone versions on the PS2. Absolutely badass. Working Designs was so damn awesome. I loved their localization jokes and what-have-you. Their translation job tended to make their games about 50% cooler. And voice outtakes? Bwahaha ;D

9) Arc the Lad Trilogy -- Another Working Designs translation job! Three in a row, eh? I loved playing through these games. #1 is an old cookie-cutter PS1 RPG, but the second one gets some real depth to it. #3 was a refreshing change, but #2 is just so damn hard to follow. Still! The "Force Ring" ability in #3 remains one of the coolest special moves ='D

10) Final Fantasy IV -- It's been addressed already... I always get chills seeing Rydia reappear, I must say. Most fucking awesome twist ever.

11) Final Fantasy VI -- Nostalgia factor! Falls apart in the second half, but the first half is absolutely wonderful. They were rushed, it seems... Guh. Had promise.

12) Xenogears -- Up until the last disk? Perfection. Then it slips. But still, I can't fault it due to that slip. It did the same as FFVI and went south once winter hit, if you will.

13) Grim Fandango -- Ask Enceph. He knows what I'm talkin' about~

There are more. Trust me =o But this is all that comes to mind at the moment!

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Gechmir

11) Final Fantasy VI -- Nostalgia factor! Falls apart in the second half, but the first half is absolutely wonderful. They were rushed, it seems... Guh. Had promise.

12) Xenogears -- Up until the last disk? Perfection. Then it slips. But still, I can't fault it due to that slip. It did the same as FFVI and went south once winter hit, if you will.

Xenogears obviously slips. Many years pass and various events are laid out to you in hurried and uninteractive fashion via rocking chair narrations. It's painfully obvious that the second disc is rushed.

FFVI though, does not slip. The story was not about toppling the Empire. It was about hope and seeing how each character came to let go of the past and find a reason to continue pushing forward. The World of Ruin served as a compelling way to spotlight the characters and that struggle. Rather than taunt you with a doomsday device like other RPGs do, FFVI dared to have the villain succeed and then your people have to pick themselves up from defeat and try again. FFVI from the beginning is more a character-driven story than a plot-driven one. The open-ended gameplay of the second half only serves to complement the more linear and plot-driven first half.

How ya doing, buddy?

Pardon me for my opinion, but I hate the world of ruin =p It changes heroines, just about. I would've preferred if it remained focused on Terra exclusively rather than changing hands to Celes. Japanese RPGs are, by nature, linear.

FELIPE NO

I wholly agree with the virtues of SORII, OoT/MM and MP1+2. I'd like to add my own Castleroids into the lot, as well as Tekken Tag/5, Sonic 2 Genesis, GoldenEye 007 and the original Snake

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Gechmir

8) Lunar: Silver Star Story, Lunar: SSSC, Lunar: Eternal Blue, Lunar: EBC -- I played these on Sega CD as well as their redone versions on the PS2. Absolutely badass. Working Designs was so damn awesome. I loved their localization jokes and what-have-you. Their translation job tended to make their games about 50% cooler. And voice outtakes? Bwahaha ;D

You mean the PS1 games? I still haven't played Lunar since the Sega CD. I'm missing out.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Gechmir

Pardon me for my opinion, but I hate the world of ruin =p It changes heroines, just about. I would've preferred if it remained focused on Terra exclusively rather than changing hands to Celes. Japanese RPGs are, by nature, linear.

I didn't mean to attack you. Only to respond to the statement about the story falling apart. It's always too vague for me to accept as a justification for dismissing that entire portion of the game as sour. The same goes for the "Kefka has no motivation and therefore he sucks as a villain" position. Preference is another matter and I certainly won't debate that. I just wanted to present a perspective in which the World of Ruin is ideal so as to show that things aren't so cut and dry.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'm glad this thread didn't get derailed... It has alot going for it.

@Megavolt

I too am one that has trouble with the world of ruin part of FF6. I'm not particularly sure what it is that I don't like, but I think it has to do with the non-linear nature of it. Ya know, the whole "go find the characters who are now consumed in there own little world, and convince them to fight." At the point before the ruined world, it seemed like the characters were beyond that for the most part. And the fact that you don't even need to get alot of the "main" characters seems odd to me. This is also the point in the game where the espers giving magic abilities makes the game start to unravel a bit for me. Everyone becomes a great spell caster because of leveling up.

I dunno, I mean I love the game and have a FFIII SNES save with most (if not every) character at lvl 99, and I've played the game to death. But at the same time, the overall fulfilling feeling i got at the end was/is not very strong. And the lack of that fulfilling feeling, keeps me from wanting to play the game again.

That being said, I can totally understand why one would have it on their perfect list. It is quite the game. And if I liked the World of Ruin part, then this game would be probably be at the top for me as well.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.