Religion: What it means to you

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

it's existence would be difficult to test for.

Again, how is this different from last-thursdayism or brain-in-a-vat, as none of these proposals can be falsified in practical terms.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Going by the former translation given on wikipedia it seems more like it's up to the individual what's actually a simpler explanation. Clever cutting and pasting, though.

Here's some more copy-and-pasting from the same article.

'In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities (although this is not always the same as simplicity)'

'Occam's razor is not equivalent to the idea that "perfection is simplicity". Albert Einstein probably had this in mind when he wrote in 1933 that "The supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience" often paraphrased as "Theories should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." It often happens that the best explanation is much more complicated than the simplest possible explanation because its postulations amount to less of an improbability. Thus the popular rephrasing of the razor - that "the simplest explanation is the best one" - fails to capture the gist of the reason behind it, in that it conflates a rigorous notion of simplicity and ease of human comprehension. The two are obviously correlated, but hardly equivalent.'

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

As I've said before, I don't even know if I exist.

Skepticism is all well and good, but when it comes to things that can not be falsified then I find it best to disregard it rather than to stew over something that has no answer, other than 5 tons of flax of course.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Well, other than me not believing anything has free will, I just wonder where people try to make the distinction between things having and not having free will. Why is it bacteria only behave based upon the chemical impulses going on in their cells while we have some magic ability to not be held captive to our own chemical impulses?

Snap, I don't believe in 'free will' either, although life is a lot simpler and more enjoyable if we allow ourselves the illusion that we have some sort of control over our actions.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

What response was that? The majority of the respondees only seem to be quite irritated that you fail to offer any evidence for your position despite repeatedly saying that you have some (although your lack of understanding of what evidence actually means might explain this). Your posts have painted you as a person who is amazingly stubborn and pig-headed....

Judgemental posts like this. So consumed with winning you compromise what you say with the way you say it.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Judgemental posts like this. So consumed with winning you compromise what you say with the way you say it.

Could you rephrase that in english perhaps.

What do you mean by winning? If by winning you mean getting everyone around to my point of view then I'm afraid you are projecting onto me. My only goal has been to present of own personal viewpoint and the reasons that have resulted in me choosing to adopt this viewpoint, and if I percieve any weaknesses or inconsistencies in other people's arguments then I point them out. Perhaps you could give an example of where I have said that my goals are any different or where I have 'compromised what I say with the way I say it', whatever that means.

If you could show where you actually offered any actual evidence for your assertations I would glady make a full and complete retraction of the post in question. As for being judgemental, I feel that if someone seems to be (knowingly or not) trying to wind people up by insulting their ethics and declaring themselves to the the only one in the right without a shred of evidence for their stace, then I feel I have the right to be judgemental.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

This is not all that relevent to the topic, but,

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Well, other than me not believing anything has free will...

I dont understand. In almost any situation you have the free will to do whatever, I think that you are confusing the consequence to what you choose to do with your free will, with free will itself.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Token

I dont understand. In almost any situation you have the free will to do whatever, I think that you are confusing the consequence to what you choose to do with your free will, with free will itself.

What do you mean by 'free will'?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Do you even understand what "courage" means? Courage is about steeling yourself to press forward in spite of great fear and foreboding. Believing firmly that existence is utterly meaningless and still resolving to grind through it is deeply courageous. If you firmly believe that in the end everything will be all right and we'll all get mai-tais in Heaven, you don't need any courage because, for you, there is nothing to fear.

Well the Christain does have plenty to fear but we do have a reason to have courage(salvation through Jesus).
Its not easy going out out and taking it on the chin for Jesus. In some countries being a Christian is illegal. I believe I will get my reward but standing up for what I believe about my maker does in some cases require incredible courage Such action has killed other believers and could kill me too.

Originally Posted by agreatguy6

Honestly, I have neither faith in religion nor in science.

I'm Buddhist, but it doesn't really seep into my life.
Things ARE.

Do you have a particular deity in your belief system?
What shores up your convictions if you have any?

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

Could you rephrase that in english perhaps.

Sorry its the Yoda in me creeping out again.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

I feel that if someone seems to be (knowingly or not) trying to wind people up by insulting their ethics and declaring themselves to the the only one in the right without a shred of evidence for their stace, then I feel I have the right to be judgmental.

I am challenging the ethics of others and searching out the source of everyones beliefs. Its been open season on my position from the start but I have refrained from name calling.

The best proof we can wrestle with is this. (Ecclesiastes 3:11 releates to this)
People throughout history have been concerned with the afterlife and spiritual concepts. No atheistic culture has ever been discovered & even in our modern time, belief in such concepts has survived the most thorough mental conditioning & violent repression. The notion that the human condition has a spiritual dimension is widely accepted.

Generally on the matter of an afterlife religions have these two basic principals.
1. A persons current life and actions affect their spiritual condition before & after death.
2. There is some kind of mechanism that sorts people out on the basis of some kind of system.

In this area my religion means a type of security like insurance on a car. In the event of death I am covered. As for why I am covered by a Christian system, its founder made a statement of
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me
this statement and others like it in the Bible sets Christianity apart from all other religions. This statement of exclusive direction is in stark contrast to the other major religious systems being practiced today.
The Bible offers teaching in the area of specific direction tward the afterlife that other religious systems lack. Like any good insurance policy the Christian plan for salvation leaves no room for guess work. It lays out what is covered under the deal and the ramifications of not being covered.

I'm critical of the atheist because of the denial of a God on the basis of faith without some kind of back up plan.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Quote:

What do you mean by 'free will'?

The ability to choose what you want to do, when you want to do it.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

I'm critical of the atheist because of the denial of a God on the basis of faith without some kind of back up plan.

Wait, back up plan for what?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

I'm critical of the atheist because of the denial of a God on the basis of faith without some kind of back up plan.

What, you mean some kind of life-after-death schtick? We generally think that when you die, you rot away and go back into the Earth. No pearl gates, no hand of god, just DEATH.

I know that's a scary idea to some people. But life is scary. Deal with it.

You can be as critical as you like of atheists. We're critical of you, too.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

In some countries being a Christian is illegal.

And in most countries, being a Christian is just the norm. Stop acting like this is some great burden you're undertaking. Jesus.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Capo

And in most countries, being a Christian is just the norm. Stop acting like this is some great burden you're undertaking. Jesus.

More like the 33% of the world is Christian:



The Jews have more reason to bitch than you do, LordSword.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

The best proof we can wrestle with is this. (Ecclesiastes 3:11 releates to this)
People throughout history have been concerned with the afterlife and spiritual concepts. No atheistic culture has ever been discovered & even in our modern time, belief in such concepts has survived the most thorough mental conditioning & violent repression. The notion that the human condition has a spiritual dimension is widely accepted.

Generally on the matter of an afterlife religions have these two basic principals.
1. A persons current life and actions affect their spiritual condition before & after death.
2. There is some kind of mechanism that sorts people out on the basis of some kind of system.

In this area my religion means a type of security like insurance on a car. In the event of death I am covered. As for why I am covered by a Christian system, its founder made a statement of
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me
this statement and others like it in the Bible sets Christianity apart from all other religions. This statement of exclusive direction is in stark contrast to the other major religious systems being practiced today.
The Bible offers teaching in the area of specific direction tward the afterlife that other religious systems lack. Like any good insurance policy the Christian plan for salvation leaves no room for guess work. It lays out what is covered under the deal and the ramifications of not being covered.

I'm critical of the atheist because of the denial of a God on the basis of faith without some kind of back up plan.

I assume you've never heard of the athiests' wager.

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The ability to choose what you want to do, when you want to do it.

And how do you know that we are not merely labouring under the delusion that we have free will, when in fact all of our decisions are made by forces outside of our control?

How ya doing, buddy?

Quote:

And how do you know that we are not merely labouring under the delusion that we have free will, when in fact all of our decisions are made by forces outside of our control?

If that is how you feel you should not be arguing on the side of athiests should you?

If you are referring to the goverment, you are wrong their too, the goverment does not control you, at least until you do something that would put you in trouble. It is as simple as this and can branch off to more complicated situations: you have an opportunity to steal a jolly rancher from one of you friends, do you do it? or do you leave it alone?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Token

If that is how you feel you should not be arguing on the side of athiests should you?

Athiesm has nothing to do with determinism vs free will.

Originally Posted by Token

If you are referring to the goverment, you are wrong their too, the goverment does not control you, at least until you do something that would put you in trouble. It is as simple as this and can branch off to more complicated situations: you have an opportunity to steal a jolly rancher from one of you friends, do you do it? or do you leave it alone?

The controls I referred to were biological and psychological in nature.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Quote:

The controls I referred to were biological and psychological in nature.

You mean like teenage hormones?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Token

You mean like teenage hormones?

I mean things like the chemicals reactions that occur in our brains.

Have a look at this for more infomation.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I've read similar concepts. Regardless, even if free will is beginning to seem more defunct, in our practical lives we can still go around saying, "This choice was made freely". Some people I meet somehow think that news like this implies that they can't be held accountable for their actions.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

I assume you've never heard of the athiests' wager.

Yes but from the perspective of an agnostic friend of mine.
I countered this with the specific nature of the Christian salvation message.

ALL other religons say you have to "work" your way into heaven and yes, In times past this docterine has crept into the Christian community but it is not supported by the bible.(Ephesians 2:8-9)

The Christian message says merely "believe that Jesus saves you" (Acts 4:8-12 & Romans 10:9)

The atheist wager also does not hold water because it has no basis for assuming authority in spiritual matters. Not believing doesn't affect the two basic spiritual principals that have been understood by humanity since the dawn of civilization.

1. A persons current life and actions affect their spiritual condition.
2. There is some kind of mechanism that sorts people out on the basis of some kind of system.

The atheist must come to the realization that no matter what they think there is a universe with laws we must conform to.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

And how do you know that we are not merely labouring under the delusion that we have free will, when in fact all of our decisions are made by forces outside of our control?

Because the bible tells me so. (Deuteronomy 6:5, Jeremiah 7:23, Hosea 6:6, John 14:15) God loves me enough to give me the choice to love him. Without free will Heaven & Hell wouldnt need to exist.

Originally Posted by Magi

Wait, back up plan for what?

In case there is a God. Many people assume things but dont check what they know to see if its the truth.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Because the bible tells me so. (Deuteronomy 6:5, Jeremiah 7:23, Hosea 6:6, John 14:15) God loves me enough to give me the choice to love him. Without free will Heaven & Hell wouldnt need to exist.

I read this book once. It talked about the "Jewish peril" a lot, and how they were trying to take over the world. So the guy who wrote it threw millions of Jews in some ovens over in Germany.

I also read this book once that claimed politicians of the world take orders from 12 families in power. These families are from outer space and they are "reptilian." Shapeshifters.

Don't believe everything you read.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

ALL other religons say you have to "work" your way into heaven and yes, In times past this docterine has crept into the Christian community but it is not supported by the bible.(Ephesians 2:8-9)

Except for those that don't believe in an afterlife, such as Shinto. Stop overstating things, you zealot.

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The Christian message says merely "believe that Jesus saves you" (Acts 4:8-12 & Romans 10:9)

Ah, no sir, that is hardly the catholic message. Not even the protestant message. Which branch of Christianity would you be speaking for, then? Belief in Jesus is not enough. Belief and atonement for sins, are. Which takes ritual. Which is working your way into heaven. Stop overstating things, you zealot.

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The atheist wager also does not hold water because it has no basis for assuming authority in spiritual matters. Not believing doesn't affect the two basic spiritual principals that have been understood by humanity since the dawn of civilization.

Since the dawn of civilization? Which civilization would that be? Care to back this up with some historical proof? Most early peoples didn't have a system of religion or belief, because they didn't have the sort of thought process necessary for it. Or are you going to tell me all about how cave drawings signify animism so I can bitch slap that out of your mouth, too? Stop overstating things, you zealot.

Also, do you know what else we believed at the height of civilization? That it was a good idea to stone women who were raped. We also understood that murdering your neighbour was a good idea if it got you his cattle and his women. Should we hold to those archaic precepts, too? Two basic spiritual principles. Please. Stop talking about things you clearly have no knowledge of, you uneducated prat.

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The atheist must come to the realization that no matter what they think there is a universe with laws we must conform to.

They do this. It's called science. Stop overstating things, you zealot.

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Because the bible tells me so. (Deuteronomy 6:5, Jeremiah 7:23, Hosea 6:6, John 14:15) God loves me enough to give me the choice to love him. Without free will Heaven & Hell wouldnt need to exist.

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. Leviticus 20;9.

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death. Leviticus 20:13

If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. Deuteronomy 22:20-21

These are all in the bible, too. Are these canon? Do these shape your beliefs? Or are these just sort of... religious fanfiction?

And before you give me the "Jesus changed that" concept:

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. -Numbers 23:19


You're the worst sort of christian, Lordsword. You cheapen your religion with your zealotry, you hurt intelligent, logical christians with your bullshit, and you insult intelligent people by attempting to argue your points in such a haphazard, hackneyed fashion. You've heard the lady doth protest too much? You seem to scream your faith in every post you make. Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?

Give it up, already.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Because the bible tells me so. (Deuteronomy 6:5, Jeremiah 7:23, Hosea 6:6, John 14:15)

Until you can give some evidence that the bible is a valid source of truth please refrain from using it as some sort of infallible guide in any serious argument.

Most amazing jew boots

It's a valid source of truth in and of his own worldview. But the problem exists because he thinks it should apply to EVERYONE'S worldview, which, quite obviously, it does not.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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I mean things like the chemicals reactions that occur in our brains.

I read a little bit of that site, which was quite interesting, I just dont see how it makes sense that every action that I make was predetermined by the chemicals and nuerotransmitters in my brain.

And I think you guys should give LordsSword a break, no one I have ever met could defend themselves against the onslaught of, like, ten intelligent, also "zealous" athiests.

Even if what he says starts to sound a really rediculous, and even though I dont agree with a thing he says, he's really smart.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Token

Even if what he says starts to sound a really rediculous, and even though I dont agree with a thing he says, he's really smart.

If what he says starts to sound really ridiculous, then he's NOT especially intelligent, now is he? Because if what he said sounded credible and defensible, then we wouldn't have to lynch him in every thread he contributes to.

What he is, however, is focused. He has a singular world view that is incredibly entrenched, and unmovable. That's not intelligent, that's stubborn. My dog can be stubborn, and he may even be smart for a dog, but he still can't figure out that the dog on TV isn't real, but man o man, can he ever bark that fucker down every time he sees him.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Token

I read a little bit of that site, which was quite interesting, I just dont see how it makes sense that every action that I make was predetermined by the chemicals and nuerotransmitters in my brain.

If not chemicals then where do are thoughts come from?

Originally Posted by Token

And I think you guys should give LordsSword a break, no one I have ever met could defend themselves against the onslaught of, like, ten intelligent, also "zealous" athiests.

I think I could handle myself fairly well agaisnt 10 intelligent, 'zealous' christians and have done so many times in the past. If you can not defend your position then you should either refrain from discussing it or abandon it.

Originally Posted by Token

Even if what he says starts to sound a really rediculous, and even though I dont agree with a thing he says, he's really smart.

I've yet to see any evidence of this.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?