Religion: What it means to you

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

But it's inaccurate to say atheists don't believe in anything outside of the realm of observation, man. At least I find it so. I may be in the minority

I suppose you could talk about people that believe in mysticism and eastern religions/philosophies and all of that junk, but then we're kind of just clouding the whole argument of what a god actually is (after all, aren't we all atheists to someone).

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Science as you know it only denys God these guys believed why wouldnt you?Famous Scientists Who Believed in God

One needs to examine not how many scientists and professors believe something, but what their conviction is based upon.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I just want to clarify here that atheism is specifically a rejection of deities, not of any and all supernatural phenomena. One can easily be religious and still be atheistic; Buddhists do it all the time.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Buddhists do it all the time.

Everyone loves a Buddhist, man.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Everyone except the Chinese government, of course.



Chairman Meow is merciless.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Well to be fair to everybody else he obviously was going to have 10,000 years to become that powerful.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Look, you lunatic.

We've said over and over again: atheism is a lack of belief. We don't believe in ANYTHING. We live without deities.

To go forth in life knowing that there is no guidance or love from a deity is more difficult, I think, than thinking Daddy God is up there to hug and kiss your boo-boos when you're down. We chose this way because we feel it's better to be honest with ourselves. I can see why people would turn to religion in times of pain or doubt; it's a very comforting thought. But to me, it's a lie. It makes you soft and warm thinking "golly gee, someone out there LOVES ME." But it's best not to delude yourself: you're just feeling down and out, and you need that feeling. You CRAVE that feeling. You want to feel loved and accepted.

I eagerly look forward to what Jackyboy has to say. Atheism is full of deities but to make yourselves look "smart" by using different terms.

Origin of the universe & life according to atheists: Chance (or probability) Despite the lack of proof.
Who controls the destiny of an atheist: The individual. This view is shared by some cults too.


I admit it my religion means support to me as well. My support does not come only from my God. My book calls for believers to rally together help one another & help the rest of the world under specific guidelines. You call yourself "good" but what does this term mean when ultimately you the atheist live in a world defined by no accountability.

Who says what is good when everyone is free to determine their own tastes under your system? Abuse of other people is condemned by the bible but how can you define abuse with the lack of a consistent authority?

My support by other people in my religion is much like the Power Rangers. We need each other for strength and we depend on a power beyond ourselves to overcome adversity which is proven again and again with successful social reforms throughout history in many different countries.

Originally Posted by sprouticus

Oh that is such fucking bullshit. You can spin the "prayers get answered" thing so easily it's mindblowing. I've had a recent string of good things happening in my life lately. If I were religious, I could easily scam you simpletons into thinking that I prayed for my good fortune. And you know what? Morons like you would believe me without a moment's hesitation. Show me proof that "prayers get answered."

Furthermore, its a proven scientific fact prayer has positive psychological benefits lending additional strength in times of hard work & persecution.
The Science of Prayer and Healing
This is outlined in biblical texts and repeated often in Christian history especially with missionaries.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

You're seriously trying to convert people. Wow.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

I eagerly look forward to what Jackyboy has to say. Atheism is full of deities but to make yourselves look "smart" by using different terms.

Yea, I look really smart by saying "I don't believe in a deity."

So. You wanna tell me what I/we worship? I'd love to know, since you know me/us better than I/we know ourselves!

Quote:

Origin of the universe & life according to atheists: Chance (or probability) Despite the lack of proof.
Who controls the destiny of an atheist: The individual. This view is shared by some cults too.

Yea, thats a huge generalization and kind of inaccurate, too.

I recommend you have a conversation with some atheists (WITHOUT preaching to them) to get a little more educated about what different atheists think.

Quote:

I admit it my religion means support to me as well. My support does not come only from my God. My book calls for believers to rally together help one another & help the rest of the world under specific guidelines. You call yourself "good" but what does this term mean when ultimately you the atheist live in a world defined by no accountability.

You're a dumbass. Really. The only reason you can keep yourself in check is because of your belief in god, yet you have the audacity to imply that atheists can't be "good people" because we hold no accountability with a deity.

Whatever keeps you from murdering and raping, thats fine. If your god is personal leash, that's FINE. I don't CARE what you believe in. It's when you start running at the mouth, pointing your fucking fingers, judging and preaching. You need to exercise a little more tolerance and a little more understanding. Jesus wouldn't be proud of you.

Myself? I like to consider how my actions affect others before I do them. I try not to harm anyone in this life, and I live to help those who need it.

I don't need a religion to be a "good" person. Do you?

(of course, we've gone down THIS road before with you, LordSword. You like to just spout religious rhetoric and not listen to a word anyone but yourself says.)

Quote:

Who says what is good when everyone is free to determine their own tastes under your system? Abuse of other people is condemned by the bible but how can you define abuse with the lack of a consistent authority?

Some people, believe it or not, DONT BELIEVE IN A CONSISTENT AUTHORITY.

Why do you need that authority? Can't you decide for yourself?

Wait. Religion is AGAINST thinking for yourself. Now I see why you're having a hard time understanding this all.

Quote:

My support by other people in my religion is much like the Power Rangers. We need each other for strength and we depend on a power beyond ourselves to overcome adversity which is proven again and again with successful social reforms throughout history in many different countries.

O man. All I had to do was read "Power Rangers" and I had a laughter fit.

Life isn't a sci-fi childrens' show, LordSword. Maybe when you grow up and you see how the world really works, you'll start to understand what people around you are telling you:

Harm none. Help as many as you can. Love your brother. We're not all that different, you and I - you and anyone in the world. Humans GENERALLY hold the same things precious, and aim to protect them.

I just don't believe in god. You do.

Good for you, applause applause, now carry on.

Quote:

Furthermore, its a proven scientific fact prayer has positive psychological benefits lending additional strength in times of hard work & persecution.

Yea, PSYCHOLOGICAL benefits. But god ain't answering your call, buddy. Your BRAIN is.

Did you know that you can also WILL yourself into being ill?

The mind is a powerful thing. I recommend you start using it to think instead of to preach.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Smelnick

You're seriously trying to convert people. Wow.

Sure my walk with God means doing just that. Sassafrass and everybody here are helping me with their contrasting views. Go back to the start of this thread and look at how this has come along. There are plenty of folks out there who read our posts but dont add their own statements.

My true aim is to reveal the natural outworking of my beliefs and coax the same from others. In doing this our audience has a chance to see what our beliefs are in action and Lord willing be persuaded by my stand to trust in Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

O man. All I had to do was read "Power Rangers" and I had a laughter fit.

I knew you would like that! I'm glad I can bring some happiness to you. The Christian is given figurative examples in the bible to live up to despite the pressure of the REAL world. By changing our perception of our circumstances we can become greater than the reality that is presented to us by others. (1 Samuel 17 & Ephesians 6:10-19)

On many occasions I had the chance to team up with folks from different denominations for one cause or another. Even though we came from different traditions be they old young or disabled my breast burned with pride as we stood shoulder to shoulder in prayer and clashed with the issues at hand with a unified front.
Even now I suspect that prayers have been fueling my efforts thus far.

Thanks to my unseen team out there, thank you for your support.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

I knew you would like that! I'm glad I can bring some happiness to you. The Christian is given figurative examples in the bible to live up to despite the pressure of the REAL world. By changing our perception of our circumstances we can become greater than the reality that is presented to us by others. (1 Samuel 17 & Ephesians 6:10-19)

Yea, I know. They tell you to try and appeal the WORD OF GOD to others with using some metaphors that are more easily related to.

Though you kind of failed.

I wasn't happy so much as I pitied you.

I'm 25 years old. I don't watch Power Rangers.

Quote:

On many occasions I had the chance to team up with folks from different denominations for one cause or another. Even though we came from different traditions be they old young or disabled my breast burned with pride as we stood shoulder to shoulder in prayer and clashed with the issues at hand with a unified front.
Even now I suspect that prayers have been fueling my efforts thus far.

Thanks to my unseen team out there, thank you for your support.

Wow. Psychology is awesome, isn't it.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

YouTube - The Essence of Security in America and in Saudi Arabia

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Casual_Otaku

YouTube - The Essence of Security in America and in Saudi Arabia

Did you uh, want to explain this at all??

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

By changing our perception of our circumstances we can become greater than the reality that is presented to us by others. (1 Samuel 17 & Ephesians 6:10-19)

You cannot distance yourself from other components of mankind, nor reality. Thats just plain foolish and dangerous.
We, as people, are all of the same matter and no amount of writing on a 2000 year old tablet can change that. That is, your reality and my reality are the exact same. However, whereas you are trying to cover reality with false hope, I believe that discontent leads to a large capacity for improvement.

Mankind can not exist apart from reality. When he tries, it proves to his own detriment. Religion encourages living in a vacuous bubble where every day is sunshine...regardless of whether or not its raining. This forecast is ALWAYS WRONG.

You don't have the capacity to see how this way of thinking is causing rather large fundamental problems in the world, which is sad. The only way that man can improve his situation is to acknowledge reality, no matter how terrible it is. The only way mankind can change reality, is to bear the responsibility of living himself.

Quote:

my breast burned with pride as we stood shoulder to shoulder in prayer and clashed with the issues at hand with a unified front.

Have you never heard that pride is a most dangerous sin?

You've only convinced others that you have some serious psychological issues and are at the very least, a zealot. Nothing beyond that. An overbearing christian is a difficult, nigh impossible person to reason with for the idea that the object of his affection requires faith above reason.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by RainMan

You cannot distance yourself from other components of mankind, nor reality.

Sure we can. Don't we do it all the time with the dreams that fuel our goals.
Consider Stephen Hawking or any other diasbled person that does great things despite the "reality" that they live in. Religion isn't always the stregnth that heroic people draw from but it provides a guide for those who don't know where to start. Thats the intent of the Christian faith, its a guide for us when we realize our crippled condition.

Originally Posted by RainMan

You don't have the capacity to see how this way of thinking is causing rather large fundamental problems in the world, which is sad. The only way that man can improve his situation is to acknowledge reality, no matter how terrible it is. The only way mankind can change reality, is to bear the responsibility of living himself.

Sassafrass told me that there is no real ultimate authority for direction, but your statements sound much like his.

What is the source for this insight that provides direction? Have you checked the source? Why do you trust statements like the one you typed if you don't know the source?

I ask this because I have intimate knowlege of my source which is the bible. I can see it, touch it, and check it with all the other materials and people that are attached to its texts. I know its history, the histories of its followers & the results of its knowlege in practice and misuse. Can you say the same about your source?

Originally Posted by RainMan

Have you never heard that pride is a most dangerous sin?

You've only convinced others that you have some serious psychological issues and are at the very least, a zealot.

Pride a sin? If you believe what the bible teaches in this area, why don't you be on my team? You would do great.
Whats wrong with zeal? My book is full of them. They had zeal because what they often fought for what is true. Consider for one minute the notion that I believe what I do because I have enough evidence and millions of other people in the world do too. ALL of us can't be wacked in the head. That the reason why scientists have gone so far as to make books on their findings in this area.

My religion means evidence!! Not just blind belief! The founders of my faith died because they would not stop telling people about their evidence.
I dont hope in some ritual, statue, or even myself. My hope is in the power that has changed my life and the lives of some of my friends and family.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Sure we can. Don't we do it all the time with the dreams that fuel our goals.
Consider Stephen Hawking or any other diasbled person that does great things despite the "reality" that they live in. Religion isn't always the stregnth that heroic people draw from but it provides a guide for those who don't know where to start. Thats the intent of the Christian faith, its a guide for us when we realize our crippled condition.

What does Stephen Hawking have to do with your argument at all??

Quote:

Sassafrass told me that there is no real ultimate authority for direction, but your statements sound much like his.

That's MY belief, you jackass.

RainMan can think whatever he wants about his belief. He's obviously an atheist, but he has his own perception of reality.

You need to start using your head, LordSword. Seriously.

I am also FEMALE. Ugh.

Quote:

What is the source for this insight that provides direction? Have you checked the source? Why do you trust statements like the one you typed if you don't know the source?

Ahahhahaa o my sweet baby JESUS, you're fucking PRECIOUS.

"Hey guys what are your sources? MINE IS THE BIBLE."

Quote:

I ask this because I have intimate knowlege of my source which is the bible. I can see it, touch it, and check it with all the other materials and people that are attached to its texts. I know its history, the histories of its followers & the results of its knowlege in practice and misuse. Can you say the same about your source?

The Bible is not exactly a great reference unless you're in a religiously-inclined discussion. The Bible isn't a source of fact so much as it is a source of inspiration.

Quote:

Pride a sin? If you believe what the bible teaches in this area, why don't you be on my team? You would do great.

It's nice to think you regard your religion as a "team" - one side against another.

You are the reason wars are fought. I hope one day you will die in protecting your beliefs. We need more martyrs like you! (O, Darwinism)

Quote:

Whats wrong with zeal? My book is full of them. They had zeal because what they often fought for what is true. Consider for one minute the notion that I believe what I do because I have enough evidence and millions of other people in the world do too. ALL of us can't be wacked in the head. That the reason why scientists have gone so far as to make books on their findings in this area.

My religion means evidence!! Not just blind belief! The founders of my faith died because they would not stop telling people about their evidence.
I dont hope in some ritual, statue, or even myself. My hope is in the power that has changed my life and the lives of some of my friends and family.

You sound so much like Legion, it's not even funny. Kind of creepy. I wonder if you hate queers as much as he did.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Sure we can. Don't we do it all the time with the dreams that fuel our goals.
Consider Stephen Hawking or any other diasbled person that does great things despite the "reality" that they live in.

What reality is that and why would it mean that they can't do great things?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Consider for one minute the notion that I believe what I do because I have enough evidence and millions of other people in the world do too. ALL of us can't be wacked in the head.

There are around 4 billion people who aren't Christians; are they all 'wacked in the head'?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

My religion means evidence!! Not just blind belief!

So you don't have faith then?

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
—Idiom
9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

I don't see the word evidence anywhere in there.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

The founders of my faith died because they would not stop telling people about their evidence.

So what? Christianity isn't the only religion to have martyrs.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Consider Stephen Hawking or any other diasbled person that does great things despite the "reality" that they live in.

I like how you determine that the reality of others is automatically shit and in need of God.

Quote:

Religion isn't always the stregnth that heroic people draw from but it provides a guide for those who don't know where to start.

Ah, but what about those who DO know where to start? Should they have to go through the trouble of having everything read to them?

Quote:

Thats the intent of the Christian faith, its a guide for us when we realize our crippled condition.

Yes, its a guide and its only meant to cover up our crippled condition, not change it for the better.

Quote:

Sassafrass told me that there is no real ultimate authority for direction, but your statements sound much like his.

What does that have to do with anything?

Quote:

What is the source for this insight that provides direction? Have you checked the source? Why do you trust statements like the one you typed if you don't know the source?

I don't require a booklet to tell me how to live my life. I regard day to day life as a general means to understand my existence.

Quote:

Can you say the same about your source?

My source is reality so I think its a bit foolhardy of you to continue trying to preach your points on which is a more formidable moral compass. You know little of my sources and in the end YOU are the one who requires sources, not I.

Quote:

Pride a sin? If you believe what the bible teaches in this area, why don't you be on my team? You would do great.

Sure thing. You still didn't answer my question.

Quote:

ALL of us can't be wacked in the head.

No, but you certainly appear to be.

Quote:

My hope is in the power that has changed my life and the lives of some of my friends and family.

That only serves your self interest. Your hope that others are influenced because of you is nothing short of selfishness. CHANGE for its own benefit, or to create the illusion of power, is not a very positive influence at all.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Ahahhahaa o my sweet baby JESUS, you're fucking PRECIOUS.

"Hey guys what are your sources? MINE IS THE BIBLE."


The Bible is not exactly a great reference unless you're in a religiously-inclined discussion. The Bible isn't a source of fact so much as it is a source of inspiration.

Originally Posted by RainMan

My source is reality so I think its a bit foolhardy of you to continue trying to preach your points on which is a more formidable moral compass. You know little of my sources and in the end YOU are the one who requires sources, not I.

So you are saying that you have no source for direction but your own will. You can do whatever you want when you want ect.

Sassafrass & Rainman, is this the reality that you use as your source of direction?
I am confused I only want to understand. You insist that I am going the wrong way on the highway of life yet you give no map, you dont even point in some direction. You two are of no help at all yet you say you know whats right. By your words and lack of help you make me depend on my book even more. (John 6:67-69)

Originally Posted by RainMan

Sure thing. You still didn't answer my question.

Until you are ready to cut me some slack I will. You stand in judgment of my statements as if you are some kind of authority but in my view you are not. Are tough statements the best you have in helping others?

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

What reality is that and why would it mean that they can't do great things?

What you believe affects what you can do. Some folks are told that they won't amount to much, they are told that their stupid, they are told they have psychologcial problems and these statements become real because they are believed.

You know helpful words help and hurtful words hurt. This is why the bible is of great use to me.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

There are around 4 billion people who aren't Christians; are they all 'wacked in the head'?

No, people have always wanted direction in living, the Christian walk does just that.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

So you don't have faith then?

Sure I do. I also have faith in my friends too. Not because they are my friends but they have proven themselves to be faithful.

The resulting evidences of John 14:16 is enough to sustain my faith.
Answered prayer is enough to sustain my faith.

Many of you say my experiences are not real. What makes you so sure?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

So you are saying that you have no source for direction but your own will. You can do whatever you want when you want ect.

Wrong.

Go back and read, fool. We've said it over and over again. You just don't read English, I guess.

Pray that you learn. I bet that will solve the problem!

Quote:

Sassafrass & Rainman, is this the reality that you use as your source of direction?

Is what the reality of our blah blah blah?

We've said what we use to guide us through life, dolt. If you're confused, learn to read more closely.

Quote:

I am confused I only want to understand. You insist that I am going the wrong way on the highway of life yet you give no map, you dont even point in some direction.

No, we didn't say you're going the wrong way. I have said AT LEAST A DOZEN TIMES that you are, by all means, entitled to believe whatever you want to believe, PROVIDED you don't IMPOSE ON OTHERS, AND THEIR BELIEFS.

I hope that was clear enough that time.

Quote:

You two are of no help at all yet you say you know whats right.

NO ONE IS PERFECT (for the FIFTH time). People did "good" before your Jesus and your god ever came around, LordSword. Jesus and Christianity didn't INVENT good people.

Quote:

By your words and lack of help you make me depend on my book even more. (John 6:67-69)

Cut the scripture shit out, would you? If you want to post preachy crap, go to a Bible forum.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Wrong......

No, we didn't say you're going the wrong way. I have said AT LEAST A DOZEN TIMES that you are, by all means, entitled to believe whatever you want to believe, PROVIDED you don't IMPOSE ON OTHERS, AND THEIR BELIEFS.

This is the parth that confuses me.
Its ok for you to impose on others what YOU believe but I cant?

You've done it in bold capital letters again & again!

Do as I say but not as I do. Sounds like my drunken, angry atheist father, you must have read the same book he did.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

This is the parth that confuses me.
Its ok for you to impose on others what YOU believe but I cant?

At which point in time did *I* personally impose ANYTHING on you?

I recommended you use your head. I recommend that to ANYONE who isn't thinking clearly. When I have to repeat myself five times for you to hear me clearly, obviously you need that recommendation.

If someone ASKS me about what I believe, I'll be happy to share. But I won't EVER ask a Christian (or any religion) to BELIEVE IN WHAT I BELIEVE. That's wrong. It's not nice. It's not respectful.

You have been VERY disrespectful this entire time, LordSword.

Quote:

You've done it in bold capital letters again & again!

And where would that be? The part where I say "I'm not INTERESTED in your religion! Please stop telling me WHAT I SHOULD BELIEVE" ??

'Cause that's not IMPOSING on you at all. Would you like me to look up the definition for you?

Quote:

Do as I say but not as I do.

Sounds like your god.

Quote:

Sounds like my drunken, angry atheist father, you must have read the same book he did.

There is no book for atheism, ahahaha what the FUCK are you talking about?

I'm sorry you had a bad childhood. So did I! But that doesn't mean we're all going to turn to religion to save us.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

At which point in time did *I* personally impose ANYTHING on you?

Bold text, harsh statements & coarse language to start. Your repeated recommendations come across like some drill sergeant.

My religion means respect. I am called to refrain from yelling, cursing, or anything that makes me harm the message I am encouraged to send which is "believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life". You show me by the way you send your recommendations of what you mean by "a good person".

The rules of respect I follow do work & I hope I have done a good job in modeling them thus far. As for passing judgment on the practice of my beliefs and on a God you don't know, you show me your version of respect of other people and their beliefs. You have no respect because you have no foundation for defining such a concept. If you do you dont show it.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Bold text, harsh statements & coarse language to start. Your repeated recommendations come across like some drill sergeant.

O, so to you, bold repetitive text is harsh. Well, maybe if you read the first time things were said, I wouldn't have to make points flash like neon bar signs.

Quote:

My religion means respect. I am called to refrain from yelling, cursing, or anything that makes me harm the message I am encouraged to send which is "believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life".

Then learn to read the first time around. You're not winning this one, buddy.

Quote:

You show me by the way you send your recommendations of what you mean by "a good person".

The only recommendation I make is "educate yourself."

Apart from that, I have no fucking clue what you're talking about. I don't advise anyone spiritually.

Quote:

The rules of respect I follow do work & I hope I have done a good job in modeling them thus far.

I assure you, you haven't.

Quote:

As for passing judgment on the practice of my beliefs and on a God you don't know, you show me your version of respect of other people and their beliefs.

I grew up Roman Catholic, kid. I was given the option to continue with my Bible studies or explore other options by my parents when I was entering my teens. I told them I didn't believe a word of it.

They respected that and let me believe what I wanted. Because that's what it's all about. Personal. choice. Just like your god says. You should understand this very easily.

Quote:

You have no respect because you have no foundation for defining such a concept. If you do you dont show it.

Because I curse, I have no respect.

Because I get FRUSTRATED when you repeatedly neither comprehend or READ anything any of us write, I am disrespectful.

You're are the most dense, ignorant person I have ever come across on the internet.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

O, so to you, bold repetitive text is harsh. Well, maybe if you read the first time things were said, I wouldn't have to make points flash like neon bar signs.

Suppose I did read your posts. Consider that I know how you would react.

You dont believe my testimony or that of the bible. Your recommendations have been taken into account. Ok.

I still have a book to follow and not your statements. Sorry. My religion means following the texts in my book the bible & not the words of people.

There's nowhere I can't reach.