Religion: What it means to you

Originally Posted by LordsSword

The Christian faith got big because of suffering, thats something you can't ignore. I've read that even popular atheists admit that their viewpoint is most popular in the wealthy crowd.

And I could just as easily turn around this completely unsubstantiated claim with another equally invalid one by saying that this is only so because, as it happens, the rich tend to be the most intelligent.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Capo

And I could just as easily turn around this completely unsubstantiated claim with another equally invalid one by saying that this is only so because, as it happens, the rich tend to be the most intelligent.

A brief look at church history would prove you wrong.
Annie Johnston Flint is a great example of a person who loses everything yet her faith in God increased.
Annie Johnson Flint's Biography
Do you have an example of a resolute individual who strove through equal adversity without faith in a God?



Try some volunteer work to get a different perspective. Visit a nursing home or a homeless shelter and clock in some time. I did, it helps.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by LordsSword

I know, the drug culture I came from is full of people who want to be apart of something. We gathered together in mind spinning bliss but it didn't last & it left you feeling more empty than before. A life of following Jesus with others has not left me with that empty feeling.

Good for you. I'm glad you found what fills your hole of emptiness and loneliness.

Some of us don't have that hole, see.

You're admitting that Jesus is just a hole-filler. That's awesome in so many ways, it hurts.

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Either you guys are real bad asses and can just walk over anything that comes your way or you really haven't had to go through much difficulty in life.

I've been through a living fucking HELL. Do not tell me I haven't suffered in life, as you have no idea what I've been through.

I guarantee you that I have a HELL of a lot more experience with pain than you can fucking IMAGINE.

And you know what I do? I suck it up and move the fuck on. It's not being a bad ass. It's called dealing with reality. You can't cry all day and pity yourself because you've fallen on bad times. You don't need to reach out and find an imaginary person to carry the load with you.

You throw the load on your back, and you haul it up the mountain by yourself. It's no one's burden but your own. Be a man. Stop pushing your problems on things like Jesus. That's cowardly.

Eventually, you'll get to the top of the mountain. I'd rather know I climbed the mountain on my own and by my own will, thanks.

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My prayer to God for you is to be blessed with something that is over and above what you are able to accomplish. Something so hard that it shakes your notion of what the world is about.

You're an ass, you know that? Take your prayer and shove it, you patronizing prick.

I've been through more than you can dream of living through. I've had to face the metaphoric "demons" straight-on, in both my family and elsewhere. I'm a STRONGER person for it. I'm not a sniveling little brat who can't deal with her with reality.

I face the music that life plays. I don't try to hide from it.

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When that day comes then you will see what the poor folk through the ages have been talking about.

You know, for future reference:

It's incredibly, incredibly offensive when you shit on people who don't believe in what you believe. ESPECIALLY when you condescend by implying you'll pray for whomever, and imply you hope for their "enlightenment."

You should probably work on that. I'm not telling you that I hope one day you'll find that there is nothing after death, or whatever.

You don't know jack shit about atheists and agnostics. But I DO hope that one day, you decide to take your head out of your ass and start THINKING.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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When that day comes then you will see what the poor folk through the ages have been talking about.

Isn't religion supposed to be about love and acceptance? What is this bullshit? Pull your god damn self-righteous head out of your ass and think for a moment here. As if you're the ONLY person in the world to "find god." Why can't you just accept the fact that other people may not share the same views you do? When you start patronizing us and looking down at us, YOU look like the asshole.

Fuck you buddy. Seriously.

By the way, when you die, you simply rot in the ground. Nothing more. Don't believe me? Kill yourself.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I guarantee you that I have a HELL of a lot more experience with pain than you can fucking IMAGINE.

It was then that I found out my fiancee had died from an overdose while licking toxic glue on the wedding invitations I had picked out.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Try some volunteer work to get a different perspective. Visit a nursing home or a homeless shelter and clock in some time. I did, it helps.

Thanks to Devo, I just caught this.

You are one HELL of an individual, LordSword.

Do you really think that non-Christians don't contribute their time to communities or volunteer services? Man o man, are you living in the dark.

I go out of my way to help people - those I know, AND strangers. I promise you I have "donated" more time to strangers and efforts which do not benefit me at all more than your average Christian.

Who the hell do you think you are to make such awful, sweeping generalizations? You're UN.BE.LIEVABLE. You should be ashamed of yourself, as a Christian.

RR, what is that from?? I think I recognize it. I am sure you're trolling me, but hey.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Isn't this LordSwords guy the one who thinks people who aren't religious can't depend on the support and love of their family, and that jews don't find solace in their religious books?

gues so.

fucking :jokemode: over here.

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Originally Posted by Sassafrass

RR, what is that from?? I think I recognize it. I am sure you're trolling me, but hey.

Seinfeld, I think.

Right?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Interrobang

Atheists put forth the idea that God does not exist. Where is the evidence for this assertion?

Well lets see...common sense perhaps? Refer to Occham's razor. DO NOT UNNECESSARILY PROMOTE THE IDEAL OF GOD WITHOUT PROBABLE FUCKING CAUSE. Do you see God? Cuz I must admit, I sure as fuck don't.

There. Is that plain enough for you? Yes. Common sense > God.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by RainMan

Well lets see...common sense perhaps? Refer to Occham's razor. DO NOT UNNECESSARILY PROMOTE THE IDEAL OF GOD WITHOUT PROBABLE FUCKING CAUSE. Do you see God? Cuz I must admit, I sure as fuck don't.

There. Is that plain enough for you? Yes. Common sense > God.

The evidence for a god is about as strong as the evidence proving there is no god. It's a personal choice; please treat it as such.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Capo

The evidence for a god is about as strong as the evidence proving there is no god. It's a personal choice; please treat it as such.

It's also a personal choice to believe in the tooth fairy. I think you well enough understand that some 'personal choices' are more feasible than others based upon the specifics of reality. Of course we can't disprove God, but only b/c it probably doesn't exist in the first place. Therein lies the rub.

If there is no way to prove or disprove something, how can we determine its legitimacy? In my eyes, its just as valid to believe in the tooth fairy as it is to believe in a supreme being.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by RainMan

If there is no way to prove or disprove something, how can we determine its legitimacy?

Gonna start bringing in the solipsism.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Devoxycontin

Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense.

While that may seem to be true or at least reasonable, it can be fairly misleading. Why is that? B/c it only accounts for the infinite possibilities of the imagination, not something that tangibly exists in any empirical sense.

By all definitions, God is beyond the reach of our presence and therefore indefinable and incalculable.

If something doesn't exist and there is no evidence supporting that it ever did, then clearly the material probability, in this case God, is 'in absence'. So I am not quite sure how to take your comment...

If you are referring to dissolution of evidence due to erosion of artifacts over long stretches of time, and the confusion that it presents in determining historical credibility on things such as the FORMER presence and customs of ancient civilization, then I would agree. Of course, this is easier to consider by the fact that many aspects of civilization are inherent and on-going, such as a belief in deities.

However, if we have absolutely no tangible evidence of something (and I don't rightly believe that God's introduction in the 'old testament' is an irrefutable source of evidence to draw upon), it makes the argument in favour of it a lot less convincing.

If something does not manifest in the here and now, then it clearly does not exist in the here and now. That is not to say that it didn't exist at one time...

That being sad, the idea that God exists/has existed/will exist seems HIGHLY unlikely and furthers itself to the principle that God isn't an invention of himself but conveniently enough, mankind.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Jesus H. Christ you're dense.

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Originally Posted by Capo

Jesus H. Christ you're dense.

You, on the other hand, are brilliant. I've always said so to everybody I know and now is no different. Kudos to you.

While I am inclined to just go ahead and believe anything you say, perhaps you would care to elaborate? What part of my statement were you unable to come to grips with?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by RainMan

You, on the other hand, are brilliant. I've always said so to everybody I know and now is no different. Kudos to you.

While I am inclined to just go ahead and believe anything you say, perhaps you would care to elaborate? What part of my statement were you unable to come to grips with?

The whole F**ing thing you douche. RainMan, I've read through most of your comments, and it seems to me like you aren't even debating anymore. Your just trying to get shits and giggles about playing the devil's advocate to anything anyone says. It's to the point where you're coming off as a complete idiot. How about just shutting up for awhile until you have something intelligent to say.


As for your comment of "there is no evidence, so that means he's not there". Thats complete bullshit. There is as much evidence proving that there is a god as there is evidence proving that there is NO god. Neither sets of evidence are 100% concrete. So why continue arguing? Whatever argument you think your partaking in isn't winnable. No amount of stupidity uttered from your mouth will make anyone go "Hey RainMan, you know what?! You're absolutely right. You win!" So just stop being such a douche. We understand, you don't believe in God, you find him to be a waste of time and a cop out.

As for those who consider believing in God to be a cop out from real life problems. I highly disagree. I myself am a believer, so obviously I'm a little biased. But putting faith is something that might or might not be "make believe" is by know means a cop out. It's a cop out if you simply pray to God for him to make your life better, and then you simply do nothing. But for lots of christians, they ask for his help, not for his divine intervention. It's not simply about turning to God only when you have problems. He's supposed to be a friend, a source of guidance and in some sense, an imaginary but not so imaginary friend. Someone you can talk to, confide in, etc etc.

People who follow solely the bible are retards. The bible is a set of guidelines for living a righteous life. It was written 2000 years ago. Many of the things it tells you to do aren't applicable in today's society per say. However, the ideas behind the suggested morals and principals still apply. Thou shalt not steal and so on and so forth. Even if one doesn't believe in what the bible tells about God, Jesus and who they were. You can still get some handy advice for real life situations. So before anyone starts bashing the bible, make sure you've read most of it. Know what's in it.

Well, thats enough of my rant. Also RainMan, God could kick the tooth fairy's ass any day.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Capo

The evidence for a god is about as strong as the evidence proving there is no god. It's a personal choice; please treat it as such.

First of all you've committed a logical fallacy. It cannot be the case that God does and does not exist. Therefore it cannot not simply be a matter of personal choice or faith. This violates the law of noncontradiction. If 50% of us believe in God and God does not exist, then it logically entails that 50% of us believe a false proposition.

Secondly, there are literally dozens of specific sciences that are as close as we're going to get which prove there is no God. The evidence in many cases which support our naturalistic understanding of the universe is overwhelming. Even Israeli archeology has not managed to find a single shard left by our ancestors' 40 year trek through the desert. With regards to certainty we can be as close as makes no difference that there was no exile and there was no wandering. There is not a shred of evidence in support of religion or the existence of god. The best you can achieve to prove the existence of God is to infer him from an apparent harmony in the arrangements. This is an extremely weak argument which has been refuted time and time again. You also have the problem of evil to account for. Then again religion has a great deal of explaining which it cannot do.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

First of all you've committed a logical fallacy. It cannot be the case that God does and does not exist. Therefore it cannot not simply be a matter of personal choice or faith. This violates the law of noncontradiction. If 50% of us believe in God and God does not exist, then it logically entails that 50% of us believe a false proposition.

Uh, see, I think what he is saying that NEITHER camp can provide conclusive proof of their belief or reason for disbelief.

Therefore, it is left to personal interpretation.

Religion shouldn't be interpreted like a mathematical formula. It's more of an interpretation of a piece of art. There is no "right" or "wrong" when you step back, simply because there's no evidence either way.

Religion is an opinion. Not a proposal for federal funds, here.

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Secondly, there are literally dozens of specific sciences that are as close as we're going to get which prove there is no God. The evidence in many cases which support our naturalistic understanding of the universe is overwhelming. Even Israeli archeology has not managed to find a single shard left by our ancestors' 40 year trek through the desert. With regards to certainty we can be as close as makes no difference that there was no exile and there was no wandering. There is not a shred of evidence in support of religion or the existence of god. The best you can achieve to prove the existence of God is to infer him from an apparent harmony in the arrangements. This is an extremely weak argument which has been refuted time and time again. You also have the problem of evil to account for. Then again religion has a great deal of explaining which it cannot do.

Again, I think you're reading religion in a really...awkward light. It's just my opinion, and whatever works for you is what you should stick to.

I'm not talking about scripture, texts, and myths. I am saying that religion (no matter which) is more about the human condition, and not science.

If you want to dissect your personal belief/non-belief like it's a carcass on a table, go for it. But understand not everyone views it like you do.

The problem starts when one camp starts pointing fingers at another camp. Or when the recruiting starts.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

First of all you've committed a logical fallacy. It cannot be the case that God does and does not exist. Therefore it cannot not simply be a matter of personal choice or faith. This violates the law of noncontradiction. If 50% of us believe in God and God does not exist, then it logically entails that 50% of us believe a false proposition.

Secondly, there are literally dozens of specific sciences that are as close as we're going to get which prove there is no God. The evidence in many cases which support our naturalistic understanding of the universe is overwhelming. Even Israeli archeology has not managed to find a single shard left by our ancestors' 40 year trek through the desert. With regards to certainty we can be as close as makes no difference that there was no exile and there was no wandering. There is not a shred of evidence in support of religion or the existence of god. The best you can achieve to prove the existence of God is to infer him from an apparent harmony in the arrangements. This is an extremely weak argument which has been refuted time and time again. You also have the problem of evil to account for. Then again religion has a great deal of explaining which it cannot do.

And what evidence is this that disproves the existence of God? Do you have any sources to back yourself up? Or are you blindly saying things out of your ass.

I in fact have done alot of research about this stuff. Reading up about this stuff is the same as reading all this stuff in this thread. It just goes back and forth and the argument never ends.

Supporters of Intelligent Design's main theory is that the world must have been created because all the organism, ecosystems etc etc are far to complex and complicated to have happened through random chance and evolution

More and more scientists, although they still reject intelligent design, are leaning away from the theory of evolution as well.

Darwin himself, renounced his own theory on his deathbed. He died a christian.


I've attached a term paper that I wrote in grade 12 on this subject. There are sources and stuff in it. Have a read, gain some sources, and then come debate with something to back yourself up.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by RainMan

While that may seem to be true or at least reasonable, it can be fairly misleading. Why is that? B/c it only accounts for the infinite possibilities of the imagination, not something that tangibly exists in any empirical sense.

No, I'm fairly certain that absense of evidence is not evidence of absense.

If you can't make the argument without relying on this, the argument is too stupid to survive. Sorry!

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I believe this was a thread on what religion is to me, not a thread on religious theology and philosophy or lack thereof.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Absence of evidence is invitation to crackpot conspiracy theories, more like.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by koifox

Absence of evidence is invitation to crackpot conspiracy theories, more like.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Smelnick

The whole F**ing thing you douche. RainMan, I've read through most of your comments, and it seems to me like you aren't even debating anymore. Your just trying to get shits and giggles about playing the devil's advocate to anything anyone says. It's to the point where you're coming off as a complete idiot. How about just shutting up for awhile until you have something intelligent to say.

Really? No need to be bitter when I bring up a decent point. Contrary to your OPINION, I am debating. You just don't like an argument which challenges you.
Before you go off assuming that I haven't examined the aspect of God from multiple angles, I tried to believe in God for a number of years and I am apparently still fairly angry at being deceived by the church after coming to the conclusion that IT simply doesn't exist.

In any event, you shouldn't feel that my opinions cancel yours out. It seems like you feel threatened...

If something I say seems biting towards the idea of faith substantiating a claim over reasonable cause, well I won't feel the need to apologize.

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There is as much evidence proving that there is a god as there is evidence proving that there is NO god. Neither sets of evidence are 100% concrete. So why continue arguing?

because thats the point of debate. If you don't like thinking about this discussion, and wish to only converse with like minded fellows that substantiate your own beliefs, then get the hell out of this thread.

I am not going to stop talking about these things simply because you threaten to soil yourself.

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Whatever argument you think your partaking in isn't winnable.

Then why are you so angry?

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No amount of stupidity uttered from your mouth will make anyone go "Hey RainMan, you know what?! You're absolutely right. You win!"

I realize that. However, it seems your taking all of my 'stupid comments' dreadfully serious. Quit being so defensive.

I have a feeling that you are getting dangerously close to questioning yourself because of some previous comments...god forbid that I should bring up a point which turns your world upside down. :roll:

Its one thing if you are annoyed. You could simply leave it at that, but you have revealed your immaturity in the fear of having your own principles turned on their head and now you feel that you need to defend yourself by going on the offensive. I don't know what to say to you other than, "Sorry. I do not care."

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So just stop being such a douche. We understand, you don't believe in God, you find him to be a waste of time and a cop out.

Uh, what? I suggest you take your own advice. Quit making it look as if your side of the debate is without flaw because your shit DOES in fact stink.
If your argument for God is so good, why does it fail everytime in lieu of common sense? That is why you're really upset, isn't it?

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Well, thats enough of my rant. Also RainMan, God could kick the tooth fairy's ass any day.

Bullshit!

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More and more scientists, although they still reject intelligent design, are leaning away from the theory of evolution as well.

WHA? Why the hell would they need to do that? Because evolution interferes with the fragile teachings of the bible? LOL. Some scientists don't need such distractions.

Do you actually think intelligent design is going to gain wider prominence as time unravels?

I am sorry dude, you aren't looking real smart.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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Really? No need to be bitter when I bring up a decent point. Contrary to your OPINION, I am debating. You just don't like an argument which challenges you.

Hey, Rainman! This isn't a place to debate about your religious beliefs. Shut up or get out. This thread was meant for people to state their beliefs and be done with it, not for some moron to come in and start trouble by saying they're wrong.

Why don't you listen when Devo and Smelnick and others tell you to just drop it?

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Common sense tells me that the theory of evolution is bullshit. You're gonna sit there and tell me that something as complex as the human eyeball became perfected through random mutations. Common sense should tell you that ain't gonna happen. If you took apart a watch, and dropped the handful of pieces onto the ground over and over again. What are the chances of it landing in such an orientation as to work perfectly? Or even at all? Common sense will tell me that it's not going to happen. It's this level of common sense that is making scientists lean away from the theory of evolution.

To suggest that I'm worried about anything you have to say changing my beliefs is to suggest that I'm an idiot. Only a fool would take anything you say seriously.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?