Religion: What it means to you

Originally Posted by shadowlink56

Umm . . . I thought it was the science nuts trying to remove God from the Pledge of Allegience, and "Intelligent Design" is the hopelessly PC way of skating the line between atheism and religion.
I do agree that whoever was trying to get rid of evolution and Darwinism is an idiot. That's censorship. Everyone should have a full plate to choose from when it comes time to make a decision. Nothing should be removed because someone else thinks it's not good for you.

No, it's not science nuts trying to remove 'Under God' from the pledge of allegiance. It's people who understand America's founding heritage when Thomas Jefferson called for a wall of separation. The addition of God is unconstitutional and violates the First Amendment. No American citizen should be made to pledge allegiance to a non-existing celestial dictatorship. You'll notice this is actually the first ingredient to totalitarianism.

As for ID, it is a purely theological pseudo-science which doesn't even merit an ad on the inside of a gum wrapper. Those who reject Darwinism are not choosing faith and religion over this false association of science and atheism. They are choosing willful ignorance over knowledge. There's nothing politically correct about teaching nonsense to children. To understand Darwin's theory of natural selection you have to first understand his earlier theory of artificial selection. But to reject either of these two theories in favour of a theological non-explanation is simply embarrassing.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by
shadowlink56

]Umm . . . I thought it was the science nuts trying to remove God from the Pledge of Allegience,

The science "nuts."

You realize that a lot of doctorate-holding scientists actually believe in a god, right?

It's not the "science nuts," it's the people who don't want religion taught in public schools. You want religion taught to your kid so you don't have to? Pay for private school. Some people know how to parent.

Quote:

..."Intelligent Design" is the hopelessly PC way of skating the line between atheism and religion.

"Hopelessly PC". I really hope you're not talking about "politically correct" because hoo boy, are you off base.

"Intelligent Design" is something that a bunch of religious folks trying to push on everyone's kids.

See, the problem here is this: religion should not be imposed in public school systems. Some would disagree (like Brady, I'm sure), but you really oughtn't teach all kids in public school that some higher being made the world. Even WITH a disclaimer thats it's only a theory. It presupposes the existence of a higher-being, which kicks it into FAITH WORLD, and therefore should be a sdiscussion best held at the dinner table or in church or something.

The theory of evolution is in fact just a theory (though it's accepted as fact in some areas of the nation), but it doesn't presuppose anything that requires a sort of faith. Which means ha ha that religion isn't involved! You can TEACH it.

And you know, those stickers on the books in Maryland that say "Yea, evolution is only a theory" is kind of unnecessary, as the THEORY of Evolution kind of makes that point FOR them.

Religion should be taught at home. Not in a school, as to impose beliefs of any kind on other children.

There's nothing politically correct about it, and it is not bridging a gap between atheism and religion. At all. Religion should be taught at home, much like proper manners, personal hygiene, so on.

Quote:

I do agree that whoever was trying to get rid of evolution and Darwinism is an idiot. That's censorship.

O jesus christ, do you even know what you're talking about.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Maybe it's me, but it doesn't sound like anyone was worshiping the snake there. =/

No, but it is rather puzzling why God would make that a necessary requirement if he could just will it away. I mean, I know that's a slippery slope - because any and all of God's ritualistic actions are then unnecessary - but this one is a little more ridiculous - the magical nature of the "snake viewing" is pretty strange.

Oh, that's our YHVH.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Hachifusa

No, but it is rather puzzling why God would make that a necessary requirement if he could just will it away. I mean, I know that's a slippery slope - because any and all of God's ritualistic actions are then unnecessary - but this one is a little more ridiculous - the magical nature of the "snake viewing" is pretty strange.

Oh, that's our YHVH.

I'm pretty sure the Old and New Testaments are pretty much talking about two entirely different "Gods." They have me convinced. ^_^

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Hell, even within the Old Testament, there seems to be multiple Gods. I've already mentioned that the mild-mannered deity that speaks with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob - named "El Shaddai" - seems to be different than the war-god YHVH. But the God of the prophets says such lines as, "I desire not sacrifice, but lovingkindness" (Hosea 6:6). Kind of strange that God says that and gives very detailed accounts in the book of Leviticus just how to go about sacrificing for Him in His new temple.

And once we throw in Jesus, we're so off the beaten path that it's almost hard to understand the Christian mindset.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

You realize that a lot of doctorate-holding scientists actually believe in a god, right?

Maybe so, but I'd bet that their God is the neutered doesn't-really-do-anything kind of God. While it may not be PC to believe in ID, it is PC to believe in a God.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

The theory of evolution is in fact just a theory (though it's accepted as fact in some areas of the nation), but it doesn't presuppose anything that requires a sort of faith.

Agreed. And to clairify "theory" for readers, it's as much a theory as the theory of planetary rotation that says the sun is going to rise tomorrow. We can't say for a fact that the sun will rise tomorrow, but we can say that according to a tested theory that was never proven wrong, the sun will rise tomorrow. (I felt the need to clarify since "it's just a theory" is often said as if it diminishes the truth of evolution, but I know you weren't saying it in that way).

There's nowhere I can't reach.

If you're going to use that bullshit "logic", you can't prove anything to be fact.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Capo

If you're going to use that bullshit "logic", you can't prove anything to be fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

So you're saying there's no point in arguing with you because you have a flawless Wikipedia defense. Ok.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Capo

So you're saying there's no point in arguing with you because you have a flawless Wikipedia defense. Ok.

Nope, I'm saying that if you want to be completely skeptical about everything then you can't really prove anything. Just look at brain-in-a-vat, or last thursdayism. However since things like these examples lacks the ability to be falsified there's no problem in dismissing them. However it is inaccurate to call the logic behind it 'bullshit logic'.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Capo

If you're going to use that bullshit "logic", you can't prove anything to be fact.

I think I explained poorly. A simpler way to describe it is that a theory is an encompasing explanation for various accumulated facts. I was using the sun example because we can't simply state "the earth revolves around the sun" as a fact in itself. Planetary rotation is a theory that depends on many observable facts for it's basis, just as evolution.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Capo

If you're going to use that bullshit "logic", you can't prove anything to be fact.

Well, it's true. We can only say that observations follow a trend and that models seem to accurately predict measurements. Of course, how do we know that what we're actually using to predict is accurate and not correct due to a convenient set of errors which cancel each other out (actually a rather complex question and argument that one of my coworkers went through at the defense of his thesis this week)?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Bible breathing Christian worldview here, returning to the scene, I have an update to share.

I have found my Fath experience to be an incredible source of support.
In dealing with tremendous difficulties in living as of late I have found that having a church + God believing family & friends a source of refuge and stregnth.

In my Christian experience I haven't stood alone in my life. Not only do I have people who currently stand with me using the same play book (the bible), I also have histories of past believers and their legacy passed on to me.

Can the nonchristians here say the same?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Quote:

Bible breathing Christian worldview here, returning to the scene, I have an update to share.

I have found my Fath experience to be an incredible source of support.
In dealing with tremendous difficulties in living as of late I have found that having a church + God believing family & friends a source of refuge and stregnth.

In my Christian experience I haven't stood alone in my life. Not only do I have people who currently stand with me using the same play book (the bible), I also have histories of past believers and their legacy passed on to me.

Can the non-christians here say the same?

You seem to be asking if non-christians have gained support from being christians, which seems to be an oxymoron. Personally, I have never felt like I needed support which I couldn't find from non-religious sources.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

If that's the reason you're Christian, you may as well go join a cult.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I am pretty sure there are many nonchristians who draw strength from their faith, LS. Besides, you're not allowed to use the "I need help from a book in order to get through life" angle. That's our angle. We need it to make fun of you.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Bible breathing Christian worldview here, returning to the scene, I have an update to share.

I have found my Fath experience to be an incredible source of support.
In dealing with tremendous difficulties in living as of late I have found that having a church + God believing family & friends a source of refuge and stregnth.

In my Christian experience I haven't stood alone in my life. Not only do I have people who currently stand with me using the same play book (the bible), I also have histories of past believers and their legacy passed on to me.

Can the nonchristians here say the same?

I expect the jews and the muslims also find solace in their religious texts as well. Even atheists can find strength in their families and friends, and past people to which the atheist feels a deep sense of respect towards.

Nigger, please.



I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

You seem to be asking if non-christians have gained support from being christians, which seems to be an oxymoron. Personally, I have never felt like I needed support which I couldn't find from non-religious sources.

So in your belief system you have found some form of support? Please, explain.

Originally Posted by Capo

If that's the reason you're Christian, you may as well go join a cult.

Which cult? I am familiar with many. My own faith tradition did start out with the "cult" label, where am I going wrong?

Originally Posted by Pangalin

I am pretty sure there are many nonchristians who draw strength from their faith, LS. Besides, you're not allowed to use the "I need help from a book in order to get through life" angle. That's our angle. We need it to make fun of you.

But its true, the bible has guided me in my relationship stratagems. Without it I wouldnt have a clue on many of the issues I deal with a wife & kids. My parents and my society as a whole never gave me the insight that has made me as successful as bible instruction. I am often made fun of, but I know its because of the age old reason of being book smart.

Originally Posted by a lurker

I expect the jews and the muslims also find solace in their religious texts as well. Even atheists can find strength in their families and friends, and past people to which the atheist feels a deep sense of respect towards.

Nigger, please.

But I asked YOU and the people here if you can say the same. A generalization of human experience isn't the same as what you have to say about your own life and what your religion means to you. Please share and ease up a bit, i'm not in a position to judge you.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Why would we need to say the same?

I can say that by studying the past, I, at least, set out to not repeat the mistakes of my predecessors.

I would say that this all unifying book called the "Bible" is actually a great source of division amongst my family. I was raised Baptist, part of my family is Catholic-- Needless to say, some family reunions don't go over too well.

I don't need to find strength in a religious text. I already form strong relationships with those around me and find strength within myself, I've never really had any problems that required some mystical metaphysical force to solve.

I mean, if I went around wielding a sword saying "BY THE POWER OF GREYSKULL...!!!" before everything I did, you'd think I was pretty fucking ridiculous, wouldn't you?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Bible breathing Christian worldview here, returning to the scene, I have an update to share.

I have found my Fath experience to be an incredible source of support.
In dealing with tremendous difficulties in living as of late I have found that having a church + God believing family & friends a source of refuge and stregnth.

In my Christian experience I haven't stood alone in my life. Not only do I have people who currently stand with me using the same play book (the bible), I also have histories of past believers and their legacy passed on to me.

Can the nonchristians here say the same?

Are you high.

This is the very example of why people WANT to be religious. They like feeling like they're a part of something. Believe me, buddy - if you want to be a part of something and want support, there are a million ways to do it - not just through j.c.

I'm an atheist. My life is chock full of morality, love, generosity, and loving my brothers and sisters in life. I don't need a book or a pretend man to do it, either. Do YOU?

I hate how people talk down, thinking "love," and "fellowship" are new ideas to a faith. You can do it even without a faith. It's a bigger challenge, too! =D

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

What religion means to me: In short, I am jipping a campus church out of a parking spot for the semester so I can get out of paying $275 for a Zone 1 permit.

Also, religion is a personal thing. It can't be taught by an organized sect. It is something each person tailors to themselves.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Why would we need to say the same?

I asked to see if you have experience. Living examples give me more than texts about them.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

I mean, if I went around wielding a sword saying "BY THE POWER OF GREYSKULL...!!!" before everything I did, you'd think I was pretty fucking ridiculous, wouldn't you?

Yes, but only because "the power of greyskull" has demonstrated its self as an entertainment vehicle, not a method of solving problems.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

This is the very example of why people WANT to be religious. They like feeling like they're a part of something. Believe me, buddy - if you want to be a part of something and want support, there are a million ways to do it - not just through j.c.

I know, the drug culture I came from is full of people who want to be apart of something. We gathered together in mind spinning bliss but it didn't last & it left you feeling more empty than before. A life of following Jesus with others has not left me with that empty feeling.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I'm an atheist. My life is chock full of morality, love, generosity, and loving my brothers and sisters in life. I don't need a book or a pretend man to do it, either. Do YOU?

Sure I do. Where I come from those things you listed were in short supply. Duo pointed out something I see in many atheists & agnostics-->

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

I don't need to find strength in a religious text. I already form strong relationships with those around me and find strength within myself, I've never really had any problems that required some mystical metaphysical force to solve.

Either you guys are real bad asses and can just walk over anything that comes your way or you really haven't had to go through much difficulty in life.

My prayer to God for you is to be blessed with something that is over and above what you are able to accomplish. Something so hard that it shakes your notion of what the world is about.

When that day comes then you will see what the poor folk through the ages have been talking about.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I could be a drug-addicted quadriplegic living on the streets, I still don't see how asking for help from some god you don't even know exists is going to help matters. Seems like a bit of a cop-out, actually.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Capo

I still don't see how asking for help from some god you don't even know exists is going to help matters. Seems like a bit of a cop-out, actually.

I agree completely, except for the bit part. It seems completely irresponsible to place ones own future in some make believe entities incapable hands. At the very best, if God exists, we slip through his fingers regardless...so whats the point in believing something just for the hell of it?

So yea I agree.

God exists to deny and deprive people of any sense of responsibility.
Thats a HUGE cop-out.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Capo

I could be a drug-addicted quadriplegic living on the streets, I still don't see how asking for help from some god you don't even know exists is going to help matters. Seems like a bit of a cop-out, actually.

I suppose thats the rub isn't it? "It seems" & "I think" are statements I often hear from the folks that really haven't had to make a serious reality check in their lives. I don't mean it as a slam, I know for a fact that ease and comfort kills spirituality.

The Christian faith got big because of suffering, thats something you can't ignore. I've read that even popular atheists admit that their viewpoint is most popular in the wealthy crowd.

I've heard my religion called a "crutch" and I don't have a problem with that. I openly admit that my flawed condition requires the use of a crutch to stand under the weight of my problems.

I was speaking idiomatically.