Song of the Week - WEEK 60 Voting/WEEK 61 Nominating

Ok, dude here’s what…

1. If a doujin arrangement exists, why not simply nominate the original song?
It’s for the same reason a lot of people nominate arranged songs. They prefer the arrangement over the original.

2. Aren't many doujin rearrangements of tracks that would be considered too popular for SoTW (Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, etc.)?
No, that’s what I am trying to explain to you. There are really obscure works featuring music from obscure games, not only Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest and the Moon and what not…

3. Isn't the difference between OCRemix/VGMix and "doujin" simply semantics? After all, the OneUps could be considered "doujin." A catalog number doesn't seem like it's a magic solution--heck, bootleg CD's have their own catalog numbers even if there's no catalog! If anything, Djinova's definition gives preference to Japanese remixers when they and their western counterparts are engaged in the same business.
Not it’s not simply semantics. “doujin” is not a site and doujin is not free. Actually, “doujin” is used very loosely, but it often only means that the production quality and quantity are not high, but I am talking about the exceptions here. Actually I am not trying to give preference to Japanese remixers, but most western remixers only arrange familiar stuff. I mean, if the rules change, I welcome any western “doujin” work as well as long as the original work is as obscure as it’s eligible for SOTW.

4. By broadening the definition of "VGM" still further, aren't we getting away from what the SoTW concept is all about? After all, if doujin were allowed, works would show up that weren't produced by VGM composers or anyone involved in the industry. If a song were sufficiently different from the original to merit consideration, it would essentially be an original work by a non-VGM composer that was only "inspired" by VGM.
What kind of industry are you talking about? Nominations are allowed already, when a composer touches his hands on one track in a game, all his past and future nominations. Gracefully, people are not exaggerating there. But there have been quite a few tracks, I personally would not regard as VGM, but then we’d come to the question of what VGM is and should be… and I dare not dictate this. Non-VGM-Composer’s work with inspiration from VGM is admittedly half the truth of VGM, but so is Non-VGM-work by VGM-composer. Why even lie, more than half of the best tracks from SOTW have come from arrangements of some sort. The chiptunes haven’t been victorious since Treasure Master something. I am all doing this only because I believe I have good obscure tracks to nominate if this rule was relieved.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Djinova

It’s for the same reason a lot of people nominate arranged songs. They prefer the arrangement over the original.

Fair enough, though by nominating an original obscure track, rather than a doujin remix, you could get a track similar to the one you want to nominate into SoTW without changing the rules.

Originally Posted by Djinova

No, that’s what I am trying to explain to you. There are really obscure works featuring music from obscure games, not only Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest and the Moon and what not…

Such as? I think some examples are in order.

Originally Posted by Djinova

Not it’s not simply semantics. “doujin” is not a site and doujin is not free. Actually, “doujin” is used very loosely, but it often only means that the production quality and quantity are not high, but I am talking about the exceptions here.

Well, the stuff from the OneUps isn't free either--they sell CD's (even if they're on hyper-sale right now). Most importantly: who decides what's "quality" doujin and what's not? Simply limiting the selection to works offered for sale doesn't address quality issues.

Originally Posted by Djinova

What kind of industry are you talking about? Nominations are allowed already, when a composer touches his hands on one track in a game, all his past and future nominations. Gracefully, people are not exaggerating there. But there have been quite a few tracks, I personally would not regard as VGM, but then we’d come to the question of what VGM is and should be… and I dare not dictate this. Non-VGM-Composer’s work with inspiration from VGM is admittedly half the truth of VGM, but so is Non-VGM-work by VGM-composer. Why even lie, more than half of the best tracks from SOTW have come from arrangements of some sort..

I mean the VGM industry, of course. The "non-VGM by VGM composers" rule has been bent quite a bit, you're right. But why open the door for further abuse by loosening the rules even more? I'd actually like to see them tightened.

I'm opposed to the idea of doujin in SoTW mainly because it would further muddle the rules and create a lot of headaches out of proportion to the benefit. I don't doubt that you'd be scrupulous in screening your doujin, but others may not be. There are tons of tracks I'd like to bring in SoTW that aren't allowed by the rules, so I sympathize, but I can't see the inclusion of fanmade works as a good idea.

How ya doing, buddy?

Wish I could spare more time for comments but I'll have to keep this quite short. In summary, very good week, which means point distribution will be an uphill task.

(2 points) Treasure Hunter G Original Soundtrack - Emperor of Balladry
I really like tracks in the vein of "Emperor of Balladry". For one, the synth is a big draw for me. And it helps that the track develops very nicely. Then there's the sudden decrescendo that always gets me.

(2 points) Kagero ~ Deception 2 Original Soundtrack - The World is falling into Ruin
For some reason, this track catches my fancy. It's not really as apocalyptic as the title suggests. It's more wistful and reflective, the type of music you'd expect to hear when game heroes stare off into the horizon thinking of the good old days. And maybe that's why I like it so much.

(1 point) Street Fighter EX - Strange sunset
There are a lot of very interesting elements in this piece that I enjoyed a great deal. But overall, the track's somewhat lessened by a few bits that didn't sit too well with me. Pity.

(1 point) Bionic Commando (NES Game Rip) - Area 5
Catchy's the word here. Would have been more satisfying if the track was developed a bit more before the loop.

Will be highly anticipating the Tyrian nomination.

I'm not too familiar with the doujin scene but I'd think that if the doujin arrangers in question have composed for actual games before then perhaps their VGM-related work could be allowed.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by orion_mk3

The "non-VGM by VGM composers" rule has been bent quite a bit, you're right. But why open the door for further abuse by loosening the rules even more? I'd actually like to see them tightened.

I'm opposed to the idea of doujin in SoTW mainly because it would further muddle the rules and create a lot of headaches out of proportion to the benefit. I don't doubt that you'd be scrupulous in screening your doujin, but others may not be. There are tons of tracks I'd like to bring in SoTW that aren't allowed by the rules, so I sympathize, but I can't see the inclusion of fanmade works as a good idea.

I agree with orion.

Votes:

2 pts. - Strange Sunset - Man, this Street Fighter EX stuff is good. The cool synth sound and drums at 1:27 is a great combo.
2 pts. - Balance - I like the drums, and I love the echoing piano thing (riff? line? what's the appropriate terminology?). The violin is nice too.
1 pt. - Sword of Delight - Yeah, the singing is bad, but I don't mind it. This is supposed to be a fun, silly track, not a really serious one. It's got some neat ideas.
1 pt. - Emperor of Balladry - Ah, this is a nice song. Much different from the rest of this week's tracks.

Close - The World is Falling Into the Ruin
Decent, but I'm just not in the mood right now - Machine Gun
Yay for NES, but no points - Area 5

Very strong week this week. Good noms, people.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Fair enough, though by nominating an original obscure track, rather than a doujin remix, you could get a track similar to the one you want to nominate into SoTW without changing the rules.
Heh heh, I guess as an orchestral fan you’d be the best to know that every little in a track can count, from synth to slight rhythm changes to pitch.

Such as? I think some examples are in order.
I was mostly thinking of arrangements from Touhou or better known as ZUN tracks. All the complains about weird synth and typical frantic ZUN and stuff… They are all justified. The arrangements would only take out the melody and adds “better” decoration to it, I am sure. Also NOW, it’s limited to his stuff, but there are endless other shooter track that would fall under this category.

Well, the stuff from the OneUps isn't free either--they sell CD's (even if they're on hyper-sale right now). Most importantly: who decides what's "quality" doujin and what's not? Simply limiting the selection to works offered for sale doesn't address quality issues.
Well, do I sense a kind pessimistic attitude through experience here? Who decides what a good track is and what not? I was just mentioning sales and production simply to draw the similarity to normal professional soundtracks, it’s not about quality.

I mean the VGM industry, of course. The "non-VGM by VGM composers" rule has been bent quite a bit, you're right. But why open the door for further abuse by loosening the rules even more? I'd actually like to see them tightened.

I'm opposed to the idea of doujin in SoTW mainly because it would further muddle the rules and create a lot of headaches out of proportion to the benefit. I don't doubt that you'd be scrupulous in screening your doujin, but others may not be. There are tons of tracks I'd like to bring in SoTW that aren't allowed by the rules, so I sympathize, but I can't see the inclusion of fanmade works as a good idea.
Heh heh, I know you are talking about the industry. But who decides who belongs to the industry, both in theoretical and practical meaning. There are obscure doujin games out there. Simple games, complex games… they all contain music. I am just trying to get some good music nominated by lifting an obstacle, how can this cause headaches. You are probably thinking about film music, I have done so as well, but this is really way off. I don’t understand why the event is being so composer-oriented, when we are listening to single songs instead. Arranged or not, by professional or amateurs, as long as it’s kind of VGM it should fit in my opinion.

EDIT: One more thing about the headaches... The job of you is to vote. Most don't even care to make comments nowadays, let alone inspecting the details of the track. So if no one told you the difference you wouldn't know or even care anyway.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Djinova

Arranged or not, by professional or amateurs, as long as it’s kind of VGM it should fit in my opinion.

EDIT: One more thing about the headaches... The job of you is to vote. Most don't even care to make comments nowadays, let alone inspecting the details of the track. So if no one told you the difference you wouldn't know or even care anyway.

I think that's silly. Of course where the music's from matters. To me, the "job" of SotW participators is to be exposed and expose others to underappreciated music from video games. Not to introduce "kind of VGM" or music that sounds like VGM, but music from games.

Originally Posted by Shaolin Samurai

* Album Title: Tyrian (Game Rip)
* Title: Tyrian, The Song
* Composer: Alexander Brandon
* Year: 1995
* Source: http://gamemusic.emugaming.com/game....HGAME=TYRIAN11

Good pick. I had been considering nominating something from Tyrian awhile back but decided against it, so it's nice to see this be nominated.

FELIPE NO

Your definition would definitely rule out arrangements then.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Djinova

Your definition would definitely rule out arrangements then.

I'd have no problem with that.

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Hey you see, I would agree to shut the door completely as well. But I honestly don't think this is a suitable option after all this event has been through. Also, sorry about the last EDIT paragraph. People surely noticed I was more being "rantish" than "reasoning". But don't let this distract you from the points I have mentioned before. As far as arrangements are concerned they are valid in my opinion.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I got my next nom, only 2 things:

1) I'm not sure whether to nominate the Genesis or Sega CD Version, I'[ll probably go with the CD version though.

2) What's the rule on nominating things that are in the VG Music Quiz? This song is an 8 pointer (I even purposely got the question wrong so I could find out what game its from,) so would that be frowned upon?

(Note, I'm not replacing the LSL nom, I mean the one after that.)

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

It's paining only having six points to award. Phenomenal week.

2 points - Mr. Driller Sound Tracks - Balance
2 points - Street Fighter EX -Arrange Sound Trax- - Strange sunset
1 point - Wonder Project J2 (Game Rip) - Josette of the Colro Forest
1 point - Bionic Commando (NES Game Rip) - Area 5

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Nomination time:

Game: Jazz Jackrabbit 2 (PC)
Song: Pull Back the Bass (Credits music)
Artist: Alexander Brandon
Year: 1998
Source: http://www.loricentral.com/jj2music.html

Sorry I don't have more info.

How ya doing, buddy?

3 points: Street Fighter EX -Arrange Sound Trax- - Strange sunset
2 points: The Music From and Inspired by Gran Turismo 4 - Machine Gun (Gran Turismo 4 Pop Rox Remix)
1 point: Mr. Driller Sound Tracks - Balance

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

3 points. Kagero ~ Deception 2 Original Soundtrack - The World is falling into Ruin

2 points. Treasure Hunter G Original Soundtrack - Emperor of Balladry

1 point. Street Fighter EX -Arrange Sound Trax- - Strange sunset

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Ooh, a good policy debate. Been a while since the last. :biggrin:

Regarding arranges by non-composers: if we let it some, we have to let in them all. Having a CD and a price means nothing; hell, I could take ten MIDIs from vgmusic.com, whip them through a program and add PHAT B33TZ, put them on a CD, make up a catalog number, and sell it to really stupid people who don't know any better. If Heaven's Race Guitar Style is eligible, then so should be this free TF5&6 arrange I'm listening to right now, as well as anything from OCR/VGMix/RKO/etc.

Regarding allowing only ORIGINAL game music: Again? :juggler: Dunno if we'll ever satisfactorily resolve this one, since about half were for and half were against the last time it came up. I'd rather not change this unless we have a poll and a supermajority of some sort votes in favor, since I'm sure the side favoring arrangements and original works would probably start clamoring. (In fact, I might be leading them. >_>) This rule is a vital part of SotW, and if it gets changed once by a slim margin, I can see votes being called on it again and again. It might be a little unfair to think that, but I'd prefer if we had consistency in our rules.

And orion_mk3, if you're interested in learning more about the scope of doujin arrangements, I suggest you talk to Dhsu, who floats around here and pitches in the occasional nomination (like the Narcissu track from a little while back). There might be a lot of Square arrangements and the like out there, but there are many arrangements of more obscure tracks out there as well. There is a LOT more out there than you think.

However, as an interesting aside, does it really matter what the source is? In the past we've allowed obscure arrangements of decidedly non-obscure themes; Chocobo's Happy Christmas immediately comes to mind. Then again, there was a bit of a firestorm over Theme of Dragon Roost Island from the Mario & Zelda Big Band Live CD. Do we want to apply eligibility rules to the track itself or the source of the track?

Double Post:

Originally Posted by KyleDunamis

1) I'm not sure whether to nominate the Genesis or Sega CD Version, I'[ll probably go with the CD version though.

Were you asking for advice here? Because we can't really help if you don't tell us what the track is. :X

Originally Posted by KyleDunamis

2) What's the rule on nominating things that are in the VG Music Quiz? This song is an 8 pointer (I even purposely got the question wrong so I could find out what game its from,) so would that be frowned upon?

At least one track from VGMQ has appeared previously on SotW, so it's not a huge issue. Just as long as you're not purposefully nominating it just to spread points to everybody.

How ya doing, buddy?

OK, the song is earnest Evans - Level 1, the Genesis versions seems to be longer, but its a chiptune, which some people on SotW don't like too much. The SCD version seems to be shorter, but better instrumentation.

http://www.celestialbridge.net/advanced/ee-gen.vgz
http://www.celestialbridge.net/advanced/ee-scd.mp3

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Djinova

Hey you see, I would agree to shut the door completely as well. But I honestly don't think this is a suitable option after all this event has been through. Also, sorry about the last EDIT paragraph. People surely noticed I was more being "rantish" than "reasoning". But don't let this distract you from the points I have mentioned before. As far as arrangements are concerned they are valid in my opinion.

I think you're still in the green. After all, you're arguing for something you seem quite passionate about! Being a tad "rantish" is the very heart and soul of SoTW.

Originally Posted by CHz

And orion_mk3, if you're interested in learning more about the scope of doujin arrangements, I suggest you talk to Dhsu, who floats around here and pitches in the occasional nomination (like the Narcissu track from a little while back). There might be a lot of Square arrangements and the like out there, but there are many arrangements of more obscure tracks out there as well. There is a LOT more out there than you think.

Oh, I don't doubt that there are legions of 'em. Might give it a shot, though my own taste in remixes tends to be of the "I-want-the-same-notes-just-with-better-synth" variety.

EDIT: While I'm posting, I might as well nominate something:

Game: Beyond Good And Evil
Song: Fight Part 1
Artist: Christophe Heral
Year: 2004
Source: Gamerip

This song is known by many names; I'll upload my personal copy to make sure everything's on the level.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

This was an all-around great week, nice selections guys. I may nitpick about some of these tracks, but they could all easily walk away with SoTW under normal circumstances.

3 Points - Street Fighter EX -Arrange Sound Trax- - Strange sunset
The smooth, sexy Jazz intro really is a great hook that sets up the rest of the track. This is superior to everything else this week, which says a lot give how good the competition was.

2 Points - The Music From and Inspired by Gran Turismo 4 - Machine Gun (Gran Turismo 4 Pop Rox Remix)
This is A really funky track that features a melody as well as slick synth/instrumentation. It is also very fun to listen to, with the track development staying fresh after multiple listens.

1 Point - Mr. Driller Sound Tracks - Balance
A fast-paced piece of action music that features some great synth leads and killer solos. Just a tad bit repetitive when compared with the rest. Which is why it earned one, instead of two points.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

3pts: Mr. Driller Sound Tracks - Balance
2pts: Street Fighter EX -Arrange Sound Trax- - Strange sunset
1pt: Treasure Hunter G Original Soundtrack - Emperor of Balladry

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by CHz

Ooh, a good policy debate. Been a while since the last. :biggrin:

Regarding arranges by non-composers: if we let it some, we have to let in them all. Having a CD and a price means nothing; hell, I could take ten MIDIs from vgmusic.com, whip them through a program and add PHAT B33TZ, put them on a CD, make up a catalog number, and sell it to really stupid people who don't know any better. If Heaven's Race Guitar Style is eligible, then so should be this free TF5&6 arrange I'm listening to right now, as well as anything from OCR/VGMix/RKO/etc.

The point is anything from OCR/VGMix/RKO/etc is already covered up by exactly these sites. Who is going to promote all these doujin arrangement CDs? The publisher themselves do it you could say, but pretty much like the aims of SOTW, some deserve more attention than just what the publisher does, that's why I am trying to bring attention to some tracks, that wouldn't otherwise be known elsewhere. I don't know what this TF5&6 arrange is, but I'd say if you find anything remarkable from this, and it has not appeared yet on any other contest-like events or is as "unknown" as SOTW would regard it as eligible, then it may be nominated. Isn't it what we do all the time, judging by feeling which tracks are ineligible and which are not, it's not like there ever was a list. And I think it wouldn't be difficult to decide whether a relatively known track from OCRemix or an obscure arrangement from Yin Wu's Manic Quest would eligible. (Heh heh, I wouldn't actually nominate Heaven's Race Guitar Style then... if you thought that sparked my becoming vocal).

Quote:

However, as an interesting aside, does it really matter what the source is? In the past we've allowed obscure arrangements of decidedly non-obscure themes; Chocobo's Happy Christmas immediately comes to mind. Then again, there was a bit of a firestorm over Theme of Dragon Roost Island from the Mario & Zelda Big Band Live CD. Do we want to apply eligibility rules to the track itself or the source of the track?

Again here, there is no list. A lot of people like me, didn't know or didn't even care, because an arrangement always has the element of surprise. It's again by subjectiveness that was decided. Hence, I wouldn't rule out arrangements of popular tracks by principle, but they would have a greater disadvantage nevertheless.

I was speaking idiomatically.

For the sake of reaching a better understanding of this argument, could someone tell me what a doujin is?

I always thought it was an amateur comic book, typically drawn in the anime style. Is a doujin something more?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

You’re on the right track. It’s just that doujin is not only limited to anime and pictures. It’s an all around for anything amateur, small-scale, self-published, self-produced, thus less unknown, but not necessarily of less quality. My knowlegde is only limited to doujin music and anime, but like I said it could be anything.

So you could call the works promoted by amateur remixing sites such as OCRemix “doujin”, and it would be ok, because it would fit parts of the description of what “doujin” is. Personally, I don’t for the sake of clearly separating “amateur” and “doujin”. Nowadays, if you do something and give it away for free, it’s considered “doujin”. But if a big company produce something without charging the customers, it’s hardly “doujin”. On the other hand, nobody talks about free software as “doujin”, even if some nobody makes it. As you can see it neither directly relates to the size and professionalism of the producing person/group, nor is it always bound to money-making. “doujin” consists of written definition and accustomed usage. By written definition a lot of things can be considered “doujin”, by accustomed usage I would only count in some small-scale eastern companys/groups/persons actually acknowlegded by the “doujin” scene. Also, this might give more insight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doujin

Heh heh, the word is so diffuse. Everyone has a little different knowlegde and his own concept of what it means. My aim has been to try legalizing some music that “inadvertently” would fall under “doujin”, but has not been widely known or exposed to on any other music site. That’s all.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by CHz

And orion_mk3, if you're interested in learning more about the scope of doujin arrangements, I suggest you talk to Dhsu, who floats around here and pitches in the occasional nomination (like the Narcissu track from a little while back). There might be a lot of Square arrangements and the like out there, but there are many arrangements of more obscure tracks out there as well. There is a LOT more out there than you think.

Haha...actually to be honest, I mostly stick around just for the Square arrangements. ^_^; The rest usually consists of Ys, Touhou, or KANON/AIR/CLANNAD, which I usually pass on.

I agree with keeping doujin out of SotW, though. If you want to expose people to great arrangements you've found, you can always start your own "Doujin of the Week" event or something. That, or post them in my lonely doujin thread.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Voting is closed.

1). [31] Treasure Hunter G Original Soundtrack - Emperor of Balladry
2). [26] The Music From and Inspired by Gran Turismo 4 - Machine Gun (Gran Turismo 4 Pop Rox Remix)
3). [24] Mr. Driller Sound Tracks - Balance
4). [22] Street Fighter EX -Arrange Sound Trax- - Strange sunset
5). [9] Wonder Project J2 (Game Rip) - Josette of the Colro Forest
6). [8/6] Bionic Commando (NES Game Rip) - Area 5
7). [8/5.5] Kagero ~ Deception 2 Original Soundtrack - The World is falling into Ruin
8). [4] Delicious Selection / Gamadelic - The Sword of Delight (taken from CD: Dark Seal)

Jam it back in, in the dark.

At least I came in second to a track I enjoyed. It's hard to compete against a Sakimoto composition.

And it's not like a silver is anything to be ashamed of. Thanks everyone!

There's nowhere I can't reach.