Villains in RPGs, that you just couldn't wait to put in their place.

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True, but then everyone on that planet is spawned from the Deus system anyways. Abel was the only exception.

Not just Abel; Anyone who was decended from Abel as well.

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Luca was brutish and also a sucker for reasons known by those who have played the game. Plus proclaiming himself "the true face of evil" in his final moments was a bit much.

Ha ha ha, now I really have to play this game. In the end Luca is just a normal human right? Guys like him are the most despicable; being a normal human, all it would take is a good sword to the neck, but because he's as crafty as he is crazy, you can never get a good enough chance.

Is he the main bad guy in Suikoden II by the way? In any case, I hope FFXII has a bunch of villains like Algus and Luca. Enough with the superpowerful overlords, I want some despicable humans to hate again.

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Who do I think is the most twisted? Kefka Palazzo, of course. He wanted to destroy hope itself.

Hope? The psycho wanted to create a void of nonexistence. He didn't want anything to remain. Of course this probably meant himself, but he was far too gone at this point to care about his own safety.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Megavolt, don't you think "destroying hope" is a bit much as well?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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Pope Zeras in Grandia 2...only because I hate evil popes in video games.

I know he was mentioned already, but Bishop Stone must be noted again (Xenogears). You read that bit of dialogue about what the priests like to do with the orphaned children right? I read a fanfic way back that hinted that Stone was among those priests, and when he took Emeralda captive....

note: no, it wasn't one of THOSE fanfics. It was a standard one that only implied the scenario to invoke drama.

I always considered how that might have happened. That, coupled with what he did to Billy's mother, made Stone my number 2 most hated XG villain after Krelian.

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Don't you think "destroying hope" is a bit much as well?

Non-existence=no hope, or much of anything else for that matter.

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Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Is he the main bad guy in Suikoden II by the way?

Yes. Well, sorta. He is just a human in, but a strong mother fucker. I still think his battle is probably one of the best if not the best in a RPG.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Heh, sounds just like FFT, with the humans putting up more of a fight than any of the monsters.

What I'm real curious is what the main characters say in retaliation to Luca. Part of the fun when getting back at a villain is watching the dialogue of your character when he's getting sweet revenge (Delita vs Algus for example). Did Luca screw over any of the main leads, and do they exclaim their anger toward him? The battle of words is just as entertaining as the battle of blades.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Not just Abel; Anyone who was decended from Abel as well.

Of course. Kim, Lacan/Grahf, and Fei. AKA "Anonelbe".

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Ha ha ha, now I really have to play this game. In the end Luca is just a normal human right? Guys like him are the most despicable; being a normal human, all it would take is a good sword to the neck, but because he's as crafty as he is crazy, you can never get a good enough chance.

He's not quite normal in that he's ridiculously strong. It takes quite a bit to take him down. The whole sequence is pretty cool.

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Is he the main bad guy in Suikoden II by the way?

Sort of, but not in the grand scheme of things. I know that sounds confusing, but you'll know what I mean if you play the game. Just trying to avoid spoilers here.

Originally Posted by Generic Badass

Megavolt, don't you think "destroying hope" is a bit much as well?

What I meant is that Luca takes the time to inform us of the obvious. Kefka is flamboyant, but only within the context of the game. He never straight up says "I'm evil!", because that would be silly. When Luca said what he said there, it's like the writers were telling the players, "this is the ultimate evil villain and we're going to tell you directly to make sure you know". We knew that Luca was evil through his actions, and for him to inform us like that seemed a bit unnatural and pretentious. It was only that line though. When he tells a villager to squeal like a pig, that works great because it's completely within the context of the game. It's just a minor nitpick and I otherwise consider Luca to be awesome for the purpose he serves in the game. I wish that Luca had stayed around longer though. Luca and

Spoiler:

Jowy

made for an interesting duo the short while they were working together.

You know who really bugged me in Suikoden II? Leon Silverberg. The guy is a total arrogant prick. I wanted to get at him more than I did Luca. He was so damn pompous and condescending. Especially in his conversation with Shu near the end of the game.

FELIPE NO

Well, in Suikoden II, Luca had fun killing women and children himself. In one of the first scenes with him, after they burn down a village, he tells some woman who's begging for her life to crawl around and oink like a pig. She starts doing it then laughs at her and says "die, pig!" and hacks her down.

As for the final battle against Luca?...

Battle Info:

Luca is a rather evil Prince as the game starts off. He isn't the last boss. But you end up tricking him with some incredibly clever tactics. After an army battle type minigame, you send off three or four full parties of people to attack him. After a few (or before the first?) battles, he takes a hail of arrows into his back and still keeps going strong. His men willingly act as human shields for him and he doesn't even seem to give a damn about it.

He ends up getting to this rather scenic location and duels with the main character (another Suiko minigame). After the duel, he crawls/limps off then dies after a brief little comment or two.

Badass scene =o

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

The Luca battle scene is the coolest one I've seen in an RPG:

clarifications on Gechmir's description:

Your party ambushes him, after Leon Silverberg betrays him, iirc, and you have to fight him three times, with different teams. Everytime it's one of the tougher battles in the game, since he has such a high defense.

After that he escapes, and is lured to an open place. When he touches a decoy planted there by your army, he releases some fluorescent dust, giving your archers the chance to shoot him. He still doesn't give up, and you have to fight him one on one, finally killing him.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Megavolt

What I meant is that Luca takes the time to inform us of the obvious. Kefka is flamboyant, but only within the context of the game. He never straight up says "I'm evil!", because that would be silly. When Luca said what he said there, it's like the writers were telling the players, "this is the ultimate evil villain and we're going to tell you directly to make sure you know". We knew that Luca was evil through his actions, and for him to inform us like that seemed a bit unnatural and pretentious. It was only that line though. When he tells a villager to squeal like a pig, that works great because it's completely within the context of the game. It's just a minor nitpick and I otherwise consider Luca to be awesome for the purpose he serves in the game.

What made you think that it was like that? Luca was certain of death at this point, but made sure not to go out with a whimper by making a lasting impression. He talked about how many hundreds it took to kill him while he murdered people by the thousands. As he says, his malice was sublime-- to the point where there was no better description of "sinister". He was the true face of evil.

I thought it was very much in context.

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You know who really bugged me in Suikoden II? Leon Silverberg. The guy is a total arrogant prick. I wanted to get at him more than I did Luca. He was so damn pompous and condescending. Especially in his conversation with Shu near the end of the game.

The funny thing with Leon is that he was more of an antihero than a villain.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Generic Badass

What made you think that it was like that? Luca was certain of death at this point, but made sure not to go out with a whimper by making a lasting impression. He talked about how many hundreds it took to kill him while he murdered people by the thousands. As he says, his malice was sublime-- to the point where there was no better description of "sinister". He was the true face of evil.

I know what the intent was. My issue is with a small part of the execution. I couldn't help but to grin in disbelief at that kind of boasting. It really seemed like the writers were stroking their egos there. I can only hope that you understand what I mean even if you don't agree.

Originally Posted by Generic Badass

The funny thing with Leon is that he was more of an antihero than a villain.

That's true moreso in the first game, I suppose. In the second game he's the one who unleashes the final boss on you, and even if he's only the enemy tactician (which in Suikoden II seems to mean more than it did in Suikoden though; he and Shu really seem to get more liberty in making decisions for each army), it still bugs me that the guy gets to avoid all accountability and slip away. He has no integrity at all. He just jumps in with whichever side he thinks is going to win.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by Megavolt

I know what the intent was. My issue is with a small part of the execution. I couldn't help but to grin in disbelief at that kind of boasting. It really seemed like the writers were stroking their egos there. I can only hope that you understand what I mean even if you don't agree.

I comprehend what you're saying, at the very least. But why do you have this notion that it has something to do with the writers? Luca Blight was an arrogant, crazy guy. It made complete sense for him to believe he was evil at its worst, and proclaim it to his enemies as he died.

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That's true moreso in the first game, I suppose. In the second game he's the one who unleashes the final boss on you, and even if he's only the enemy tactician (which in Suikoden II seems to mean more than it did in Suikoden though; he and Shu really seem to get more liberty in making decisions for each army), it still bugs me that the guy gets to avoid all accountability and slip away. He has no integrity at all. He just jumps in with whichever side he thinks is going to win.

Leon unleashed the Beast Rune so that the party could incapacitate it; not because he had some sort of wish for revenge. It had been trying to break free from its seal after Luca gave it the blood sacrifice at Muse, and the only reason it didn't up to that point was because Jowy was holding it back (which is explained at Tenzan Pass after the L'Renouille falls). Leon's modus operandi is to end war as quickly as possible, with the fewest casualties. Like Jowy, he sided with Highland because it seemed like the quickest way to end the war.

He has a lot of integrity. He's just arrogant on ocassion.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Generic Badass

Leon unleashed the Beast Rune so that the party could incapacitate it; not because he had some sort of wish for revenge.

I never said he wanted revenge. He throws it at you as some sort of final challenge. He says something like, "let's see if you're really worthy to lead this country". Anyways, that example was only to show how Leon is never held accountable for his actions. That point still stands. The people who were truly loyal and truly believed in the rightness of Highland paid a hefty price. Leon did not.

Originally Posted by Generic Badass

Leon's modus operandi is to end war as quickly as possible, with the fewest casualties. Like

Spoiler:

Jowy

, he sided with Highland because it seemed like the quickest way to end the war.

Leon seemed to think that Highland was best equipped to lead the country into the future. (you should edit that big spoiler there) Obviously he was wrong. Of course he'd never acknowledge that or be there to take the fall with his supposed compatriots.

Originally Posted by Generic Badass

He has a lot of integrity.

Leon doesn't even join you in the first game until it seems for certain that you're going to win the war. I didn't see any moral soundness in him. He wasn't about to fight for what was right against difficult odds. He's only there to lend a hand to whoever seems stronger to him. And he obviously has no qualms with planning cowardly traps like he did in the meeting between

Spoiler:

Riou and Jowy at Muse.

Integrity? I don't see it. Leon was totally ruthless.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Oh ya I was just reminded of Seifer from FF VIII. He was so annoying being Ultimecia's bitch. He's also arrogant especially when crucifying Squall in the prison. Lots of fun to tell him lies about what SeeD is and get electrocuted.

Lynx from Chrono Cross, most obviously because of the famous halfway point of the game where:

Spoiler:

Lynx ID Rapes you with the body swap and you make friends you apparently couldn't make as a normal Swallow-wielding boy. It was basically: "Give me my body back...DAD!"

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Megavolt

I never said he wanted revenge. He throws it at you as some sort of final challenge. He says something like, "let's see if you're really worthy to lead this country". Anyways, that example was only to show how Leon is never held accountable for his actions. That point still stands.

That was the point I was addressing, actually. Why would he have to be held accountable for something when he was helping to stop the Beast Rune? He couldn't do that shit himself.

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The people who were truly loyal and truly believed in the rightness of Highland paid a hefty price. Leon did not.

Leon was not tied to Highland, so he had no loyalty to King and country. Problem solved.

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Leon seemed to think that Highland was best equipped to lead the country into the future. (you should edit that big spoiler there) Obviously he was wrong. Of course he'd never acknowledge that or be there to take the fall with his supposed compatriots.

Highland was the best equipped after Luca was removed, which is why he aided in his downfall. He also knew when the remants of Jowston turned the tide of the war and he had failed, which is why he helped prepare for the end of the Blight bloodline, as well as making proper preparations to reverse the sacrifice made to the Beast Rune. You seem to think Leon should have some sort of undying loyalty to a foreign nation, which is was made clear at the beginning that he was brought there to end the war, and do it quickly.

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Leon doesn't even join you in the first game until it seems for certain that you're going to win the war.

Leon doesn't join because,

1. He assumed Mathiu still hated him for planning the Kalekka massacre.
2. He himself was a bit angry that Mathiu became a strategist again even after he swore it off.
3. He was still somewhat troubled by his own plan, which is why he continued to live with the survivors for a while.

He eventually catched wind that the war was almost over, and told McDohl to say hello to Mathiu. He then joins when he receives a letter. Mathiu says he wanted Leon's help for the siege of Gregminster, and siege warfare is bloody.

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I didn't see any moral soundness in him. He wasn't about to fight for what was right against difficult odds. He's only there to lend a hand to whoever seems stronger to him. And he obviously has no qualms with planning cowardly traps like he did in the meeting between

Spoiler:

Riou and Jowy at Muse.

Integrity? I don't see it. Leon was totally ruthless.

You need to stop looking at the black and white thing, since Leon looks at war and politics objectively. Aside from Luca (whom he's quick to eliminate), no leader from either country looked greater than all the others, and he simply took the one that was stronger-- Highland-- and aided them to the best of his ability. His strategies apply stricly to his MO, and he is not afraid to be cutthroat because, simply, there is no good or bad side in war. There was no emotion involved in his ambush at Muse, so I can't agree with calling it "cowardly". All he did was put the enemy leader is a position to surrender, immediately ending the war, or die, greatly demoralizing and fragmenting his army. Either way, the outcome would prevent many bloody battles, and would save countless innocents. That's all he works for.

That's why I say he has integrity.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I'm going to explain things in the simplest way I can, and if you still don't understand, then it's not my problem:

Leon's unfeeling approach to things is exactly what is wrong with people like him and why people gravitate to people like Riou who aren't jaded and haven't lost their sense of self. Riou might be naive, innocent, whatever you want to call it, but he never sacrifices his basic humanity for the sake of "doing whatever it takes". That's what makes him a true hero, and why his counterpart, despite doing what he did with the belief that it would end the war more quickly, ultimately took the wrong path.

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I'm not entirely sure why you're being dismissive and seem to think I dont get your argument, but whatever. You seem to not understand the basic concept of right and wrong, or look at it in a juvenile way, by arguing that being the lovable fool made Hero II right and everyone who was sneaky was wrong. The guy makes himself out to be a prick to save innocent life, and he's without morals? I'm not sure how you don't grasp the full picture, here.

I mean Jesus fucking Christ, Jowy says he has no regrets about what he did. The whole point of that ending is that it didn't matter, they both did what they thought was right, and in the end they got what they wanted.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Well, just about anyone from FFT that appeared after Chapter one had it coming (and most from the first chapter did as well). Also, I fucking loved Kefka. The final dialogue between him and the group is greatness. A truly twisted villian.

- WraithTwo -

Double Post:
Who else wanted to FUCKING ROCK Pokey's ass in Earthbound? That little bitch needed to DIE.

- WraithTwo -

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Okay, I'm about seven hours into Suikoden V and I'm already tempted to put Gizel Godwin here, continuing the successful run of great Suikoden villains. Extremely well written character with a penchant for elaborate schemes and not a moral in sight, not to mention he just LOOKS (and talks) like someone you want to punch out. Getting to his throat (hopefully) as a reward is only going to make playing the game better.

How ya doing, buddy?

I agree with Algus..I couldn't wait to just beat the crap outta him. Same goes for Luca Blight and Seymour. Oh and I forgot her name, but the sorceress type girl from Suikoden III...always hated her. And..well I guess he's not too villainous at all...but Prince Charmles from Dragon Quest VIII deserves as much, if not more, than the others.

How ya doing, buddy?

Easy. Pokey and Algus. Algus for his betrayal, and Pokey for being that fucking bitchtit from my grade 4 class who would pick a fight and then cry to his daddy the principal when you hit him. UGH. I JUST WANTED TO KILL HIM DEAD DEAD DEAD.

And Algus just boils my blood. He stands for everything that priviliege and dishonour brings to the table. He's responsible for Teta and Delita's fall. He starts everything. He's just... terrible.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

-Sephiroth after the infamous death scene. Before him, I would say The Turks. And before them, Yuffie for stealing my money :P

-Ozma in FFIX is a planet I wish never existed. He is broken.

-I wanted to kill Sin due to having a great deal of entertainment fighting HUGE bosses.

-That damn mask boss in Chrono Cross. It took me 30 minutes of luck and unprepared strategy - plus me forgetting to save before the battle - to beat it. So annoying.

-Just like Cid, I too wanted to mash Ultima Weapon's face in!

Ahh I think that's it.

FELIPE NO

Really? The Turks? I never wanted to kill them, I wanted to outwit them. Stay one step ahead. I hated SHINRA, not the turks. Same with Seph. He had to die to protect the planet, but I didn't blame the guy. I'd probably have done the same in his shoes. And Ozma? What the fuck for? There's no backstory to Ozma. He's just HARD. You need a story reason to want to mash him.

How ya doing, buddy?

-Giving those friendly monsters precious shit for free to even ATTACK this beast is more than enough story.

Spoiler:

-If The Turks weren't so damn popular, and if the translation of Tseng's condition wasn't fucked up, I would have thought the fight in the subway would be their demise. Unfortunately, having an option to fight them or not put that to rest real quick. Plus, they always whupped me badly for being "normal" humans when I fought them AFTER the 1-on-3 Reno Battle especially that last one. I wanted to give them hell (literally) for revenge...

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Casaubon

I kind of wanted to kill Luca Blight. He pretty much just killed whoever he wanted and was a dick.

Sure, he was such a twisted pile of shit!

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Also it was fun finally fucking his ass up, one of the best battles ever.

No. the battle was too...epic.
He actually deserved to be shamefully crushed by no heroe or in any battle; he had to die in a quicko way like the one suggested in the attached image.

There's nowhere I can't reach.