English dubs versus Original Japanese or Fanboys Need to Grow up and Gtfo

With shows I really like, I try to watch both the subs and dubs, as that usually makes me understand the plot more. I've seriously run across subs with lines that I didn't really understand.

I prefer subs over dubs in most cases, and this isn't only for anime. The problem with a lot of the dubs I've heard is that the voice acting sounds a lot like those plays we used to do in elementary school. It's either overdone or underdone.

With the subs, I'm less distracted by poor voice acting, and even if, in reality, the original contained horrible voice acting, I wouldn't notice if I didn't know the language. Now, if I actually knew the original language and realized just how horrible it was, I'd go for the dub. So, no, I don't hate dubs. I just hate dubs that I know are horrible.

Besides, reading subs has been a rather fun experience. Although I have no trouble at all with reading them, they're still good speed-reading practice.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

My problem with dubs is usually not the acting... it's the choice of VA for the character. I like to experience almost everything "as the creator intended", so I avoid dubs for that reason. One example is where a male character is voiced by a female VA to make them sound young, and in the dub they end up sounding like a 35 year old man.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Most boy characters in dubs are, as far as I know, voiced by women.

Also, I'm not sure how much influence the creator has over the anime once it's in production. It may vary from author to author, but I believe it's usually up to the studio and director on both sides of the field (eastern and western).

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by chato

GTO can be a huge example . Both jokes in japanese and english were different. In my honest opinion, I found the dubbing to be more funny even if David Lucas did a shitload of voices in the anime.

GTO dubbed was ear-piercing for me. Onizuka wasn't as outrageous as he was in the Japanese dub, Kikuchi sounded like a stiff-lip retard and Fujiyoshi was an American beach surfer jock DUDe (OMG!!!)...

Another example was "His and Her Circumstances" aka "Kare Kano". You can't tell me Arima was great in the English dub (well... his Jap dub wasn't good either but it was preferable over the English one... I had to turn it up to Volume 26 to hear what he was saying).

I was speaking idiomatically.

Why is this even still a debate after so many years?

To preface the rest of this post, I typically watch subs, but I'm fine with watching a decent dub, or even a poor dub if the Japanese voice acting was really poor.

Some points:

1) "I want to watch the show as originally created": This is, in my mind, one of the weakest excuses I've ever heard for preferring subs to dubs. I'd like to think (add the necessary amount of sarcasm here) the creator/director/writer/studio really wasn't thinking about somebody adding a bunch of subtitles to their shows to watch them. In fact, if the creator and/or anime staff were more visually minded people, a dub would be considered better, since a dub pulls much less attention away from the action on the screen (and there have been fansub groups that were particularly bad about covering important frames with text).

2) Quality: Many fans claim that American voice acting is not as good as the original. This was certainly true 10 years ago (and we stuck to subtitles almost exclusively then). But it's not true now. There are cases when the dub is at least as good as the original audio track. Yes, there are cases when the English voice track is not as good as the Japanese, but there are also cases when the English voice track is better, which brings me to my next point:

3) Most fans can't speak/understand Japanese fluently. If you really wanted to watch a show "as the creator intended", you'd watch it without subtitles and with the original audio track. Once you make the concession to use subtitles, you have already compromised this principle. It is, perhaps, to a lesser extent than watching a dub but still a compromise. Further, because fans can't understand Japanese fluently, they can't tell if the acting is good or not. There's a range of quality (visually, orally, etc.) in anime. So, it surprises me that so many people would automatically prefer a sub of dubious quality (though many fansubs are done very well) to a well made dub produced by professionals (though many professional dubs are done poorly).

4) Anthropic principle. Although to a lesser extent than many years ago, Americans (and others) tend to get the better shows out of Japan. There is a filtering process that prevents Americans from being subjected to many of the ridiculous elements of Japanese culture. Sad but true. Try going to Asia. Any self-proclaimed expert (based on only watching the show or perhaps taking a year or two of language) would experience culture shock. So, a lot of the prejudice is based on fansubs of well acted/well produced shows compared to the full spectrum (poorly acted to well acted) of American dubbing. With the passing of time and improvements in the industry, this phenomenon is becoming less of an issue.

5) Pragmatic. Face it, most people prefer dubs. Most Japanese prefer foreign movies dubbed (Japanese voice actors also do a considerable amount of work dubbing live action movies). Most Asians prefer dubs. The countries that don't typically produce dubs (I believe one was mentioned here) are typically smaller countries that typically don't have the resources to release dubs for all these shows/movies. Dubs cost extra money. There's no financial incentive to produce them without (1) adequate resources and (2) adequate demand. There is no country in the world where demand is not adequate. There are, however, several countries where there are insufficient resources to meet this demand. In the US, there are a few shows that only also release a sub because of fanboy rancor (and they don't really even return the favor by purchasing the DVDs with as much energy as they complain about lack of subs).

6) Feeling of superiority. Like it or not, most human beings like to feel superior to other human beings. And most sub-only people fall into the category of people who want to feel superior by (1) watching anime and (2) watching anime subbed. If a dub exists but you don't watch it, why does it matter that it exists? Live and let live. It doesn't make me feel good to put somebody else down for watching a dub. They aren't illiterate or stupid (for the most part). Naming them as such is cruel and simply enforces self-important feelings.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I prefer subbing rather than dubbing, but I'm not the type who'll complain when a series gets released in American in English. That's stupid. It's just the way it goes, and it makes sense, because there are a lot of pseudo-anime fans out there who are too lazy or stupid to read subtitles or just can't stand it.

The reason why I prefer subtitles is because if the japense voice acting is lousy, it's not so easy to tell since it isn't my language. Also, the subtitles in a movie are almost always closer to the meaning of the original dialogue than the dub is, for the simple reason that they don't need to change the sentence to synch with the characters' lips.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by ArrowHead

pseudo-anime fans out there who are too lazy or stupid to read subtitles or just can't stand it.

See my point #6 above. Fans have been watching dubs (and avoiding subs) since at least the early 80s and possibly longer. I wouldn't call them pseudo-fans any more than I would call Asian Star Wars fans pseudo-Star Wars fans for watching their dubbed versions of the movies.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Great Antibob

See my point #6 above. Fans have been watching dubs (and avoiding subs) since at least the early 80s and possibly longer. I wouldn't call them pseudo-fans any more than I would call Asian Star Wars fans pseudo-Star Wars fans for watching their dubbed versions of the movies.

Thing is that if you watch Fullmetal Alchemist or Kenshin in dub form you won't feel as much emotion or attachment to the story as you would if you saw the original Japanese version. People who just want to see action or can't read subs and watch the anime at the same time are probably the ones who prefer dubs. But reading subs isn't hard once you get used to it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I wouldn't mind dubs if they where good, most dub work is really awful. That plus the fact that the japanese voice actors are part of the production. The casting director for the specific anime chose those actors for a reason, and just cutting them out without thought for a lame dub is pretty disrespectful, I think, unless you do a good a good job with it. This really goes for all forms of media from anywhere.

There are only a few exceptions in my mind, one being Howl's Moving Castle. They did an A+ job with that dub. Also if it counts, the MGS series has a great "dub".

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by DarknessTear

Thing is that if you watch Fullmetal Alchemist or Kenshin in dub form you won't feel as much emotion or attachment to the story as you would if you saw the original Japanese version.

Why not? I watched Fullmetal Alchemist when it was on Adult Swim, and I managed to feel "emotion" and "attachment to the story" while doing so. I wouldn't have minded seeing subs as well, but the dub was perfectly competent at conveying the story. Have you even watched all of the dub, or are you just using it as a baseless example?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

It doesn't bother me either way, most of the anime I watch is subbed, but I have no objection to watching English dubs. I finally got around to watching Howl's Moving Castle the other day, and automatically went for the English track (and it took me forever to work out that Christian Bale was in it.... ><'). If it's dubbed, it means I don't have to sit glued to my monitor, which is a big plus! The advantage of subbing is obviously a wider range of anime to watch. So, yeah, I'm cool either way!

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Grigori Rasputin

I wouldn't mind dubs if they where good, most dub work is really awful. That plus the fact that the japanese voice actors are part of the production. The casting director for the specific anime chose those actors for a reason, and just cutting them out without thought for a lame dub is pretty disrespectful, I think, unless you do a good a good job with it.

The director's job, even in the dubbing process, is to choose voice actors that they believe fit the character itself. They're not picked at random, and as Great Antibob mentioned earlier, dubbing, as a result, has come a mighty long way from 10 or so years ago.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by RockgamerXIII

Why not? I watched Fullmetal Alchemist when it was on Adult Swim, and I managed to feel "emotion" and "attachment to the story" while doing so. I wouldn't have minded seeing subs as well, but the dub was perfectly competent at conveying the story. Have you even watched all of the dub, or are you just using it as a baseless example?

Yes I've seen about 10 episodes of the dub. You don't get the feeling that Edward has grown mentally from his voice like in the Japanese dub. Also the Japanese approach to dubbing is different than ours. In Japan the actors are told the character's thoughts, feelings, ideals and telling them who they are and how they feel in every situation. I'm not sure if we'll ever take dubbing "cartoons" that seriously. There is a dub I DO prefer over the original though, Cowboy Bebop.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by DarknessTear

Yes I've seen about 10 episodes of the dub. You don't get the feeling that Edward has grown mentally from his voice like in the Japanese dub.

First of all, that would be hard to gauge in just watching ten episodes. Second, I understood that pretty well, so I still don't see where you're are coming from with this. And unless you actually speak Japanese, I don't see how you could tell he has grown mentally from his voice. The part that actually reflects this is the script, and that is all your basically reading when you watch something with subtitles (unless you actually know the language, of course). I'm not saying you can't understand emotion or anything when it's in another language, but the concept of hearing someone "growing up mentally" is more about what someone says, not necessarily how they say it.

Quote:

Also the Japanese approach to dubbing is different than ours. In Japan the actors are told the character's thoughts, feelings, ideals and telling them who they are and how they feel in every situation. I'm not sure if we'll ever take dubbing "cartoons" that seriously. There is a dub I DO prefer over the original though, Cowboy Bebop.

Have you ever been in a dubbing studio, Japanese or English? Do you know for a fact that every Japanese VA is told the character's thought's, feelings, ideals, etc., and that every American VA isn't told this info? Really, regardless of who's doing the voice acting (or any kind of acting, for that matter), they should be able to figure this out themselves from reading the script. Not only that, but the American VAs have an advantage as they can actually watch the original completed Japanese version to base their performance off of. It has nothing to do with taking the dubbing of "cartoons" seriously, it has to do with people taking their job seriously.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by RockgamerXIII

the concept of hearing someone "growing up mentally" is more about what someone says, not necessarily how they say it.

Sounds like you don't understand to me.

Originally Posted by RockgamerXIII

Have you ever been in a dubbing studio, Japanese or English? Do you know for a fact that every Japanese VA is told the character's thought's, feelings, ideals, etc., and that every American VA isn't told this info? Really, regardless of who's doing the voice acting (or any kind of acting, for that matter), they should be able to figure this out themselves from reading the script. Not only that, but the American VAs have an advantage as they can actually watch the original completed Japanese version to base their performance off of. It has nothing to do with taking the dubbing of "cartoons" seriously, it has to do with people taking their job seriously.

I can't say I've heard any actors that tried to resemble the original except that guy who played Vash in the dub. I've seen videos and stuff of Japanese people explaining their character and how it's done and I've also seen videos of English voice actors which rely on the voice director to be told how to act.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I'm really too lazy to read this whole thread and to be honest I don't really care.

Why do I prefer to subs to dubs? Simple. You get more of a variety with subs and more emotion. Allow me to elaborate.

The seiyuu (voice acting) industry in Japan is a shitload more extensive than the dubbing industry here. I bought a copy of Animage, a Japanese magazine last year, and one of the extras was a small book with lots of seiyuu, possibly all of them? The book was pretty big, probably the thickness of an average-sized manga. In America, you have maybe 30-50 people freelancing for whatever series they're hired for. I won't go so far as to say some of them are just doing it for the money, but there's not really money there in the first place and it's not my place to say this.

Secondly, Japanese is a lot more emotional a language than English. You can't pull any "You don't know Japanese so you don't know" bullshit on me because I do know Japanese. There are things that I find I can't properly communicate in English because its so dry. This also helps the seiyuu convey emotion moreso than dub VAs. Due to the way that Japanese is formed, there's a lot of different ways that a person can speak. In English, that's just not really possible. You also have to consider that a lot of the time these characters are created with Japan and Japanese in mind. Not America and English, so when you try to transfer over characters that are meant to have an Osakan accent and give them a Western accent, its just dumb.

That's just my two cents, I don't really feel like writing any more.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I'm much more of a dub fan than I am of subs. In fact, I basically hate listening to the other language.

Call it personal preference I guess. With voice actors being as good as they are now (with some exceptions -- lookin' at you, Naruto), I don't have a problem with listening to them. Hell, even if they're BAD I'd rather listen to English or Japanese.

Viz, Geneon, ADV, Medie Blasters, etc. all make high-quality anime, so I don't see any reason to bash them for licensing and localizing an anime. Fact is, if it doesn't get licensed, I won't get the chance to watch it. I don't like downloading whole episodes of anime because I think it's a waste of time -- besides I'd rather watch it on a TV screen rather than confined in Windows Media Player.

I WAY prefer dubbed anime over subbed anime. Even back in the days of Robotech, voice actors were good. Hell, Robotech has excellent voice acting! I don't blame the actors so much for bad dubbing as I do the production studio. It's their fault for choosing poor VAs, not the other way around.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by DarknessTear

Sounds like you don't understand to me.

Well then, please elaborate your point, because I have a pretty good grasp on what you actually posted.

Quote:

I can't say I've heard any actors that tried to resemble the original except that guy who played Vash in the dub. I've seen videos and stuff of Japanese people explaining their character and how it's done and I've also seen videos of English voice actors which rely on the voice director to be told how to act.

First of all, how many anime have you seen both versions of (and completely, not just partially) to say that Vash is the only dubbed character that tried to resemble the original? And I'm pretty sure Japanese VAs rely on voice directors as well, while there are also English VAs who can "explain their character" and whatever else you're are talking about. Like I said, it's all about dedication to the job.

I could care less about which way you choose to watch anime, but it's when you start the mindless bashing of one form to justify the other that makes you look ignorant. Can't you just like your way of watching it without calling the other way stupid?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by RockgamerXIII

Can't you just like your way of watching it without calling the other way stupid?

Don't put words in my mouth, I'm just saying it ruins a good percentage of the anime itself.

Also you'd have to be pretty simple minded to say that maturity depends on what you say, not how you say it. Of course debating on this point is a bit pointless when I can't really show what I'm saying here. Try watching it sometime.

Originally Posted by SouthJag

I'm much more of a dub fan than I am of subs. In fact, I basically hate listening to the other language.

Call it personal preference I guess. With voice actors being as good as they are now (with some exceptions -- lookin' at you, Naruto), I don't have a problem with listening to them. Hell, even if they're BAD I'd rather listen to English or Japanese.

Viz, Geneon, ADV, Medie Blasters, etc. all make high-quality anime, so I don't see any reason to bash them for licensing and localizing an anime. Fact is, if it doesn't get licensed, I won't get the chance to watch it. I don't like downloading whole episodes of anime because I think it's a waste of time -- besides I'd rather watch it on a TV screen rather than confined in Windows Media Player.

I WAY prefer dubbed anime over subbed anime. Even back in the days of Robotech, voice actors were good. Hell, Robotech has excellent voice acting! I don't blame the actors so much for bad dubbing as I do the production studio. It's their fault for choosing poor VAs, not the other way around.

You're missing out on a lot, but that's all up to you and what kind of watcher you are I suppose.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Bottom line for me, I like my anime the way I like my foreign films: in their own original language.

On the other hand, Japanese voice acting grates me for some reason. Perhaps it is the tendency to overact (as opposed to the American tendency to underact) that I find appearing a bit too extreme. Emotions and effect are fine and good, but making everyone emote puts the "melo" with the "drama".

I was speaking idiomatically.

I'm not fussed between either of the two, I generally go for whichever is considered the best by others and watch that. Like NGE, I got about 15 minutes into the English dub before Shinji's voice irritated the crap out of me and swapped over to subs.

Gundam Seed, on the other hand, had fantastic voice acting and is a case of I'm not fussed either way, but I'll listen to it in English because its there and the tone of voice is easier to understand.

Then, there is Full Metal Panic, which, after watching the dub, I can't watch with subs simply because the voice acting is superb and there is a lot of subtle humor in the voices I'd miss if I was listening to the subs.

My take anyway.

How ya doing, buddy?

I have no preferences about Subs or Dubs, but I would love to express my opinion on this two interesting variations.

Firstly I don't really watch Dubs except when i am bored and I join my little sis watching some morning anime session. What I notice straight away with dubs is that there are points in time where they deviate from the original dialogue! They done it on purpose? or they just can't express what the original author trying to say? Not only that, but as some members stated before, some sequences in the anime are 'redrawned' or 'censored' which "originality" just isn't there anymore. That is the reason why fansubs sometimes continue licensed series... and I think thats what fans call "Butchering"?

Also, this raises up in nearly every single post, its about the VAs (Voice Actors). I do have respect for all English VAs, but complain about the organisation/selection skills of the organisers. I have seen and hear some dubbed series where characters personality seems to flipped into another character. In japan, anime/movie/CG VAs had always been regarded as one of the important element to a successful product. I guess in US that isn't always the case, 'profit before entertainment' is their main element (I think?). If dubbing companies want to earn large profits or big support, one idea is to start VA schools like Japan. Train up not only the VAs but also the english VA organisers.

I have friend who are currently in Japan doing voice acting as part of her certificate (degree), and one of their unit is about breaking their emotional barriers and fully portraying character's emotion when doing their recordings. And thats what I found quite often with English VAs, they tend to hold back their character's feelings.

Subs are a good way of learning other languages (IMO), no matter if it is fansubs or official subs. I feel that subs are closer to the story than dubs however the reason people hate subs is because they have to read and miss out whats on the animation. But that can practise and eventually it will come naturally!

But why would I care when I can read/listen to Jap and enjoy things at their original condition. Thats just my 2 cents...

FELIPE NO

When dubbed anime deviates from the original dialogue, it's often times a case of cultural differences. The actual meaning isn't changed, just the manner in which it's spoken.

Japanese: "We must hurry to the train station!"
English: "Let's get to the station, now!"

That sort of thing happens a lot, just because Americans we tend to vocalize our thoughts differently. With the relatively few home-grown Asians I've encountered, I noticed that they tend to enunciate their words and draw out longer sentences. Americans? If we can abbreviate it, fantastic. So it's just a culture thing in the way we express thoughts -- dubbed anime reaches out vocally to our culture of vocal expression.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

The most important thing I like to have when I watch anime is CAN I KNOW WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON. If there's a ton of Japanese in jokes I won't understand any of them and will entirely miss the creator's purpose. Dubs on the other hand, can screw up the script or the story, as seen by 4Kids stuff.

I'll take Azumanga Daioh as the true essence of the double edged sword of this issue. It's got a lot of jokes that are distinctly Japanese, and the dub switches it around, luckily to make some equally funny jokes more understandable to the US audience. It's got people who sound better in the dub(Chiyo, Osaka) and those who sound better in Japanese (Kaorin, Kagura) and those who sound completely like their Japanese counterparts (Kimura, Sakaki). It's like the show is two completely different and enjoyable experiences depending on the language.

My point is simply that subs and dubs have their own merit. Subs are better for original content, dubs are better when the action needs to flow and/or I can better understand what the hell is going on.

And emotions: in Japanese, it's all about the emotion of your voice. In English: it is 90% word choice.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

When done correctly, ie. Gungrave, Samurai Champloo, Cowboy Bebop, etc. dubs can be great. Whenever I hear about 4Kids getting a license to an anime I like, though, such as One Piece and Shaman King, (R.I.P.) I die just a little inside. Funimation has gotten better at dubbing, as indicated by Fullmetal Alchemist and Blue Gender. I think they've gotten a hold of Bleach too. Hope they do a good job with it.

Originally Posted by Sin Ansem

I'll take Azumanga Daioh as the true essence of the double edged sword of this issue. It's got a lot of jokes that are distinctly Japanese, and the dub switches it around, luckily to make some equally funny jokes more understandable to the US audience.

Azumanga Daioh had a great dub, btw. And I find that the dvd versions (and even the higher quality fansubs) of shows like AD or Excel Saga have subtitles that go along with the english track, but only to translate what's written on a sign or to explain those Japanese in-jokes, which makes it a lot better.

There's nowhere I can't reach.