[Album] DIRGE of CERBERUS -FINAL FANTASY VII- Original Soundtrack (CRCP-40137~38)

Interesting comment about the interweaving of the melodies you mentioned, jb1234. I didn't notice this to the same extent as you did and I agree it gives the score much more thematic cohesion as a whole.

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek

Lack of melody? I can remember many good melodies from Hamauzu's previous works. There were only 2 or 3 main melodies in SFII, but each reprisal was unique and interesting. US, on the other hand, has plenty of good melodies. I could play them all back on a piano without even thinking. There's the character themes, and the battle themes, (Battle theme EX!), and many other highly melodic songs.

I basically agree here. While Hamauzu limited himself to using only one major melodies in each of his SaGa works, both were full of character and flawlessly written, well-supported by some secondary melodies that also featured throughout the score. I found the integration of the US theme especially impressive, as it still hasn't grown old, despite probably featuring in up to 15 pieces. The US main theme has probably my favourite melody to feature on a SE OST, actually. As for SF2, some say the main theme is overused, but, as PN put it, each reprisal was unique and interesting.

His US work featured lots of great melodies that were not integrated elsewhere in the score. Piece together tracks 1-24 on Disc One with all Disc Two tracks from "Challenge to the Seven Wonders" and you have a whole disc of rich and unique melodies. Much of Disc Two is less accessible melodically, but themes like "Battle Theme EX" and "BT Ver. 5" are pretty much immediately appreciable. The profoundness of most of the electronic pieces isn't, however, their melodies, but overall eccentricity and creativity.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

As far as I can tell, SFII has three primary melodies, the main theme, Vorspiel, Rosenkranz, and the Feldschlact theme. Most of the songs are based on either one or more of these, although some, (Like my favorite, Trubsal) have their own individual melodies.

There might be more, but those are the ones that come to mind first.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Yeah... I'm aware of this, though the main theme is definitely used the most prominently. I guess, in terms of reuse of melodic material, though, SF2 reuses more themes than US overall, even if the melodic diversity of US is much greater.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Perhaps it's just too subtle for my cloth ears.

Did ye who find so much melodic consistency in olde Hamauzu find any here, in Dirge of Cerberus?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by orion_mk3

Perhaps it's just too subtle for my cloth ears.

Did ye who find so much melodic consistency in olde Hamauzu find any here, in Dirge of Cerberus?

As I've said, it's his least melodic work to date, by quite a way. There is melodic consistency, but it isn't exactly obvious on first listen. I would have much preferred a clear and highly memorable main theme, to be honest, though have no other issues with the soundtrack.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

"Battle Theme EX" is my favorite track from US.

As for DoC, I've found that the second disc is my favorite. It has the best cinematic tracks (which I've seen in the game. They're incredible, albeit somewhat undermixed) and holds the most sway over me. The first disc tends to get slow-going about halfway through with all the atmospheric tracks that have no thematic connection to the rest of the work. Probably works wonderfully in the game but on disc, those tracks are skippable for me.

There isn't really one Hamauzu score that I can come out and say is my favorite. Most of them have some flaw that keeps me from completely loving them. US has the electronica second disc, I've never really warmed up to SF2 and the true tragedy is that Nakano got to provide music to all the interesting areas in Musashi, leaving Hamauzu to do short character themes and jingles.

He provided the best music to FFX though...

How ya doing, buddy?

I was a bit dissappointed from that OST. On a personal level it didn't do much, but I am williing to consider the context and jugde it as it is.

Hamauzu managed it quite well for a cinematic approach of a soundtrack. The aggressive tracks are fairly memorable and impressive, some of the character themes are interesting (like Rosso the Crimson's mysteriousness or Lucrecia Crescent's lightness). The overall feeling of the soundtrack is a sad and forsaken one, very dark and unique from what I have heard.

On an objective level (production, composition and sound quality) I give it a clean 5/5. On a personal level, it's a 3/5 (more instrumental variety, if not that then at least some reallly memorable themes, and not all those mood paintings).

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I agree this isn't Hamauzu's best work, but after a summary of my favorite songs:

1) Singable themes (I count only 3 singable themes) so far for melodic consistency...:

a)Calm before the storm, Splinter of Sadness
b)Ten year reunion, Memories with Lucrecia, Lifestream, Sudden parting, Discovery in Sadness, Forgotten tears
c)Lucrecia Crescent, A Proposal (variation on Lucrecia Crescent), Prologue of DOC

2) Battle themes (not singable but makes you hum with the song in an obsessed rythmic way):

-Counteroffensive: great switch in mood, makes you dance...
=> The Immaculate (variation on counteroffensive) : also makes you dance.
-Killing one another: the strings create breath taking crescendo's
-Crimson Impact: Good Rythm
-Messenger of the Dark: This melody gets in your mind, really.
-WRO March: There is a sequence in the middle of the song that's very original.

3) Violin goodness in oriental style (I'm a bit disappointed I only found 2 of these violin masterworks):
-Girl named Shelke
-Ninja Girl of Wutai
(-Fragment of Memory)

4) Special effects goodness (unlimited saga had more special effects):
-Sneaky Cait Sith
-Azul the Cerulean: I didn't expect that drum in the middle of the song.

5) Orchestral goodness (the all round use of high tones in the background, the harmony of strings, the piano and the rythm):
-Trigger Situation: (I'm amazed at 1:20, that sequence is brilliant: use of the same motive in two absolutely different situations)
-Mysterious Ninja
-A proposal: My favorite piece.
-Return to the Subject
-Marching Tune
-Chaotic end: Order in using every instrument and of course the piano! His Trademark.
-Hope of The Future

Conclusion:

-The other songs are just fillers, we fans have to admit that.
Overall: 27 good songs against 53. In quantity its almost a 5,5/10. Not very good. This means there are too much fillers.

-I find this his best work in terms of orchestration quality, especially the battle themes. Better than Unlimited Saga.

-There are only 2 good themes which is a bad thing...

-The ending theme could be a "little bit" better.

Disappointed? Yes, we have high expectations.
But if you place this OST next to other OST's, Hamauzu overpowers everything.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Quote:

-The other songs are just fillers, we fans have to admit that.

Uh, no. You left out some of the more brilliant cinematic tracks, like "Return to the Origin", "Finally Reborn", "The Last SND", "Prologue of Dirge of Cerberus".

The ending theme is gorgeous, easily my favorite track on the soundtrack (and works gorgeously in the game itself).

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Yes Prologue of Dirge of Cerberus is also a variation on the "A Proposal" theme. Good use of the bell sounds.

The ending theme is great, have to reconsider that...

Return to the Origin is a bit on the boring side. The Last SND doesn't say a thing. Finally Reborn is monotone, has interesting piano tunes, but that's all.

I have to point out, Calm Before the Storm is the most beautiful work of Hamauzu yet, in all aspects. After that maybe "Aeolic Guardian" of Musashi.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Quote:

Return to the Origin is a bit on the boring side. The Last SND doesn't say a thing. Finally Reborn is monotone, has interesting piano tunes, but that's all.

You should see them in the game. All three are for FMV scenes and they work EXTREMELY well in their context.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Does anyone know how many FMV's there are + which music?

I was speaking idiomatically.

"Trigger Situation", "Prologue of "DIRGE of CERBERUS", "High-Spirited", "Marching Tune #0", "Return to the Origin", "Marching Tune", "Finally Reborn", "The Last SND", "Everyone's Help", and "Hope of the Future" are the FMV pieces.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I'm interested in how Hamauzu makes his music?

Is it like: he plays the pieces with orchestra and then samples it with added sound effects?

Some pieces are fully orchestrated, but others are entirely midi (A Proposal)

Others are midi in background + real live violin, hobo or flute. (this combination is very common in his works and works well)

Let's analyze Girl named Shelke, Ten Year Reunion, Discovery in sadness or Memories with Lucrecia, Splinter of Sadness and many others:
There is cello, violin, flute, piano but there is always <midi-strings>.

I wonder if it is like this (very unlikely) First Assumption:
the violinist, cellist and flutist wear a headphone and listens to the midi background while they record their playing. Then Hamauzu adds this ensemble to the midi-background and we have the resulting track.

The other possibility is (very likely) Second Assumption:
just using a synthesizer-piano-strings + the soloists in a real live recording.

Conclusion? it's not midi. It's not electronically generated but real live. The question is, why doesn't Hamauzu use an orchestra of violins? Instead he uses a synthesizer?

Let's analyze The Immaculate: It sounds very orchestral, but I'm 80% sure the strings aren't real. (listen to 4:16) I hear sound effects too, these have to be synthesized later on by adding it to the orchestrated part. This has to be midi. But I don't understand why midi can be of such great quality...

Final note: many of the FMV's seem to be fully orchestrated, they have no sound effects and have 100% real live strings. Exceptions are Prologue of DOC and Trigger situation.

So, are there any experts in this field?

How ya doing, buddy?

Ok I need to listen to the whole soundtrack because for whatever reason, I stopped after track 10 from the first disc and I still dont know why... But the little I heard, I was pretty underwhelmed by it, very strange considering how I usually love Hamauzu work.

Also the bitching against orchestral score needs to stop. I think it's pretty stupid to dislike a score or an OST or whatever because it's using an orchestra and not synth we're used to hear for the last 20 years. Ugh.

*going back to listen to DoC*

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Quote:

I wonder if it is like this (very unlikely) First Assumption:
the violinist, cellist and flutist wear a headphone and listens to the midi background while they record their playing. Then Hamauzu adds this ensemble to the midi-background and we have the resulting track.

This is probably the most likely scenario. He would just paste the live recording onto the midi track.

Quote:

Conclusion? it's not midi. It's not electronically generated but real live. The question is, why doesn't Hamauzu use an orchestra of violins? Instead he uses a synthesizer?

It's expensive to get a bunch of string players in a room together. I'm sure getting soloists isn't cheap either but it doesn't add up as much as a few dozen string players would.

Quote:

Let's analyze The Immaculate: It sounds very orchestral, but I'm 80% sure the strings aren't real. (listen to 4:16) I hear sound effects too, these have to be synthesized later on by adding it to the orchestrated part. This has to be midi. But I don't understand why midi can be of such great quality...

It's midi, just really good midi. I think the track would have been even better orchestrated but he decided not to go that route (and indeed, only went that route with the cinematics).

Quote:

Final note: many of the FMV's seem to be fully orchestrated, they have no sound effects and have 100% real live strings. Exceptions are Prologue of DOC and Trigger situation.

"Prologue of DOC" uses an orchestra. You can tell by listening to the brass (which are often the worst as far as midi recreations go).

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Raijin

Also the bitching against orchestral score needs to stop. I think it's pretty stupid to dislike a score or an OST or whatever because it's using an orchestra and not synth we're used to hear for the last 20 years. Ugh.

Well, I'm mostly open to orchestral VGM. Better quality sound is an improvement. I'd rather bitch about FFXII which has an OST full of synths and without any orchestral tracks.

BTW: Prologue of DOC just really seems a mix of two things, the first part with those strings are midi and the second part (after 1:14) has a real orchestra in it.
Also the sound effects have to be added. (I'm experimenting with FLStudio and those effects aren't that difficult to make, I still have to figure out how to patch it on an existing song... I think that's the way Hamauzu does it. Patching different wav. files on each other)

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Quote:

BTW: Prologue of DOC just really seems a mix of two things, the first part with those strings are midi and the second part (after 1:14) has a real orchestra in it.

I think that's right. I haven't decided whether the piano in the first half is real or midi. The intro FMV is about six minutes long so roughly three minutes in the middle are unscored.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

My 2 cents:

Short version: Meh

Long version: Although not offensively generic, I found most of the tracks sounded like a parody of past Final Fantasy scores. This is just speculation, but I think Hamauzu was probably coached into aiming for a stereotypical Uematsu-esque style too much (to give it a Final Fantasy feel), and the result is pretty boring. For me, there was 3 kinds of tracks: The genuinely good ones (Ten Year Reunion, Undulation, Return to the Subject and Mysterious Ninja stood out to me the most, nut maybe I was trying to be optimistic), the genuinely bad ones (battle themes to a certain extent, Gackt), and songs with misleading chord progressions that at first sounded like they could have turned into beautiful epic pieces but died down before they ever really went anywhere, leaving us disappointed, wading through the boring static phrases.

Also, even though square/squenix went to shit after the merger (or maybe before, the last really good game they put out was Final Fantasy Tactics), there is no excuse for including a single by a soulless J-rock clone like Gackt in one's game. Not only is it disrespectful towards the composer to be told that their entire score takes a back seat to a few uninspired juvenile vocal tracks, it's disrespectful towards the player/listener to have the songs presented to them with the expectation that they will like it. I know it's probably too late for squenix to get out of their habits of spending thousands of dollars to include crappy Japanese pop music in their games to give them identity (I know that 8 and 10 had them, I'm sure some of the others did too), but I'd rather have better gameplay than "Gackt".

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

How was it with Musashi Samurai Legend? Did Hamauzu choose to have that piece of the Surf Coasters in it, or was it imposed? Because that piece really fitted in the game. I haven't played this one yet, but it might fit too.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Here's what I can't figure out...

How is Final Fantasy X better than this? I thought Final Fantasy X was mostly crap, just because it lacked consistency and the fact that 75% of the score was ambience. Hamauzu provided some great music (i.e. Thunder Plains, People of the North, and Someday the Dream Will End). BUT in no way does it surpass the quality of the compositions found in Dirge of Cerberus. In Dirge not only do you find ambience, but you find sweeping melodic pieces with light woodwinds and booming brass phrases. I know that this soundtrack is different, and that is what Hamauzu was trying to prove. He doesn't want to be bound to one specific kind of writing. I think that he succeeded in the fact that he caught everyone off guard, and treated them to something new and creative. The battle themes are one clue. Mixing rock elements in with orchestral cues. There is nothing in this score that says horrible or un-creative. It is simply different and only true fans of Hamauzu will be able to appreciate its musical quality. And another thing is that everyone is having too high of expectations anyway. Just because it has FFVII on it doesn't mean that it has to give off the same impact as Uematsu's orignal score. One thing that I found amazing with DoC is that Hamauzu did not replicate any of Uematsu's music. Hamauzu has always given the impression (no pun intended) to me that he never restricted himself to boundaries in terms of musical composition. In other words, even though Uematsu made an amazing score for FF7, he didn't seem intimidated by it. And in the end he made a better score, imo. I think that most people who are nit-picking this score are being completely biased, and are only disappointed with this because they feel it doesn't surpass Uematsu's original. As you can tell, I enjoyed this score, and find it thoroughly entertaining.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Now about that FFX OST. I see that Uematsu composed the ending theme. Is that true? Because that was really something special! (but in the game itself they say the composer is Hamauzu, they don't even name Uematsu in the Credits-Composer, they should because many of the themes are from him. Or am I blind? (I only saw the credits once, it could be a mistake) Another thing is that it was Hamauzu that arranged the piano collections and that same ending theme in the piano collections is exactly the same in orchestra version.

Another question: Is "Isn't it wonderful" composed by Hamauzu? I think so by listening to it. But also here Suteki Da Ne seems to be composed by Uematsu on many transcriptions out there on the internet.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Josh_1

It is simply different and only true fans of Hamauzu will be able to appreciate its musical quality.

Get off your high horse. If you like the music, that's great, but you don't need to resort to this kind of elitist b.s.

Also, FFX is 75% ambient? LOL

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I did find FFX to be mostly ambience, and quite boring. The only reason why I liked it was because of Hamauzu and Uematsu. Nakano just plain sucked in it. I didn't truly like Nakano until I listened to Musashiden II Blademaster. He was excellent in that score, just not in FFX.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by katchum

Now about that FFX OST. I see that Uematsu composed the ending theme. Is that true? Because that was really something special! (but in the game itself they say the composer is Hamauzu, they don't even name Uematsu in the Credits-Composer, they should because many of the themes are from him. Or am I blind? (I only saw the credits once, it could be a mistake) Another thing is that it was Hamauzu that arranged the piano collections and that same ending theme in the piano collections is exactly the same in orchestra version.

Another question: Is "Isn't it wonderful" composed by Hamauzu? I think so by listening to it. But also here Suteki Da Ne seems to be composed by Uematsu on many transcriptions out there on the internet.

Uematsu is credited as a composer, in fact, you see his name before Hamauzu's and Nakano's. The ending theme and Suteki Da Ne were composed by Uematsu and they sound so impressive thanks to Shirô Hamaguchi's arrangement and orchestration.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by katchum

-The ending theme could be a "little bit" better.

What is the name of that track? At first I though it was Chaotic End, but yesterday I saw it was used in the pre-final battle cutscene (and perhaps in the final battle as well).

There's nowhere I can't reach.