Proper spelling - is it that important?

Originally Posted by Ridan Krad

I disagree. The way you remember spelling is by taking note of patterns where they exist while being mindful of exceptions. Similarly, the way to develop proficiency in kanji is to learn radicals that form kanji and the patterns that develop in their usage. 金 illustrates this point well, I think, as it's used in a lot of various metals, over and over again.

I thought spelling is by knowing what letters make what sounds. From what I understand, while radicals may provide some indication as to meaning (and even then I'm sure there are some completely obscure etymologies), they often have no bearing whatsoever on pronunciation.

In English, if you know how a word sounds, you can usually figure out its spelling, or something reasonable close (I'd actually support spelling reform for the purposes of creating a 1-to-1 phonetic mapping). If one were to give you the pronunciation (or even meaning) of a Japanese word, would you be able to reconstruct the appropriate radicals purely from that?

Also, weeaboos.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Dhsu

Also, weeaboos.

Says the guy that listens to animu music. How does knowing the language make someone a weaboo. Don't be jealous now.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Let's try a different example; if someone gave you a Japanese name, would you be able to reconstruct it? Heck, if someone gave it to you in kanji form, would you be able to deduce the pronunciation?

I've learnt Chinese all my life and honestly speaking, radicals don't do much to help pronunciation.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Scarletdeath

Says the guy that listens to animu music.

:iceburn:

By the way, I don't remember the last time I've listened to an anime track (not including bad YouTube music videos).

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How does knowing the language make someone a weaboo.

If you're not Japanese, then knowing Japanese is usually a good sign that you're a weeaboo. If you are Japanese, then...well, fine, you've got me there.

Also if you're trying to tell me I misspelled "weeaboo," then that's a) kinda sad, and b) kinda wrong - see definition 2.

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Don't be jealous now.

I'll try my best, Sucaroletodesu-sama-kun-san~~~

I was speaking idiomatically.

It may sound weird from me (ENglish is my 2nd language) but yes, spelling is important. If one has to read a text outloud to understand it, then it's not intelligible

French as gone a major reform in the 90s for the sake of simplicity. The hat (^) is no longer necessary if the word has no homonyns (forêt becomes foret, but dû - past participle of devoir - keeps it). During the Middle Ages, I learned that ''typist monks'' were paid by the number of characters they wrote, so they added some.

Languages may one day be written as they are spoken (so is Creole in Haiti). However, the process will be slow.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Dhsu

By the way, I don't remember the last time I've listened to an anime track (not including bad YouTube music videos).

Um, you didn't need to get defensive there.





...weeaboo.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Dhsu

I thought spelling is by knowing what letters make what sounds. From what I understand, while radicals may provide some indication as to meaning (and even then I'm sure there are some completely obscure etymologies), they often have no bearing whatsoever on pronunciation.

生 (sei) which is used as a radical in the kanji 性 (sei). Knowing the first kanji, you can guess the pronunciation of the second, more complicated one. This principle doesn't always apply, but it sometimes does and can serve as a mnemonic device as kanji became more complex.

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In English, if you know how a word sounds, you can usually figure out its spelling, or something reasonable close (I'd actually support spelling reform for the purposes of creating a 1-to-1 phonetic mapping). If one were to give you the pronunciation (or even meaning) of a Japanese word, would you be able to reconstruct the appropriate radicals purely from that?

There, their, they're
Too, two, to

Without context, how would you know which one to choose? I guess if you define "reasonably close" as picking one of the options, then sure; you're all set. But despite what the guy in the article says, I think to be taken seriously, knowing the correct spelling is important. Also, let's not forget about "silent" letters in English words. There's nothing intuitive about them, and sometimes certain letter combinations that are frequently used (-tion) would most certainly be spelled entirely different if the sound was isolated (shun).

Also, I don't know if 1-to-1 mapping would actually necessarily be a good thing. Although many people have trouble using the above examples correctly, there are distinct meanings for each word and different spelling helps make this more clear.

Regarding your question, I don't think that's a fair comparison. In English, when you're guessing spelling, you already have a large vocabulary and have been drilled on spelling all through grade school (although if the article is anything to go on, some people would say that's a waste of time). You pick the correct spelling based on a combination of context, vocabulary, and general rules of spelling. In Japanese, you get drilled on kanji instead of spelling. But just as English has patterns of spelling that can aid in memorization, Japanese has its radicals.

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If you're not Japanese, then knowing Japanese is usually a good sign that you're a weeaboo. If you are Japanese, then...well, fine, you've got me there.

I don't understand. Are you saying that you're against learning foreign languages, or that you're just against learning Japanese as a foreign language?

I always understood weeaboo to mean someone who thinks you can learn Japanese from just watching anime all day.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Ridan Krad

生 (sei) which is used as a radical in the kanji 性 (sei). Knowing the first kanji, you can guess the pronunciation of the second, more complicated one. This principle doesn't always apply, but it sometimes does and can serve as a mnemonic device as kanji became more complex.

Citing an exception that "sometimes" applies does nothing to support your argument that the radical system is anything akin to spelling. Do even 40% of kanji follow the convention you just described?

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There, their, they're
Too, two, to

Without context, how would you know which one to choose? I guess if you define "reasonably close" as picking one of the options, then sure; you're all set.

Again you're using exceptions to support a weak argument.

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But despite what the guy in the article says, I think to be taken seriously, knowing the correct spelling is important. Also, let's not forget about "silent" letters in English words. There's nothing intuitive about them, and sometimes certain letter combinations that are frequently used (-tion) would most certainly be spelled entirely different if the sound was isolated (shun).

Sure they may not be intuitive, but there are still conventions that make it possible for someone with no knowledge of context or meaning to reconstruct the correct spelling. I don't see that being remotely true for the radical system. Honestly I don't see why you're so intent on pushing this point when Japanese has actual spelling system in the form of kana.

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Also, I don't know if 1-to-1 mapping would actually necessarily be a good thing. Although many people have trouble using the above examples correctly, there are distinct meanings for each word and different spelling helps make this more clear.

Fair enough. It actually might be in our best interests to eliminate homophones as well, but then where would all our wacky puns go...

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Regarding your question, I don't think that's a fair comparison. In English, when you're guessing spelling, you already have a large vocabulary and have been drilled on spelling all through grade school (although if the article is anything to go on, some people would say that's a waste of time). You pick the correct spelling based on a combination of context, vocabulary, and general rules of spelling. In Japanese, you get drilled on kanji instead of spelling. But just as English has patterns of spelling that can aid in memorization, Japanese has its radicals.

Not a fair comparison? You're the one who made it. :/ The purpose of spelling isn't to serve as a mnemonic to aid memorization...it's so you *don't* have to come up with mnemonics that sometimes work in order memorize thousands upon thousands of unique squiggle configurations. The fact that the English language in particular is often not conducive to this purpose at all is another matter entirely, but again, in general as long as you know what a word sounds like, you can spell it with a knowledge of basic conventions, which is not true of radicals.

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I don't understand. Are you saying that you're against learning foreign languages, or that you're just against learning Japanese as a foreign language?

I always understood weeaboo to mean someone who thinks you can learn Japanese from just watching anime all day.

First, I didn't say anything against learning Japanese, I merely suggested that it's a fairly accurate otaku-dar because the motivation more often than not stems from anime and/or video games. This has been supported by my general experience on both the Internet (just for fun, see how many Japanese threads there are on this forum for every thread about a different language) and real life (my sister is an "East Asian Languages and Cultures" major - read: huge weeaboo ). And unfortunately, you and Scarletdeath's little discussion didn't do much in the way of disproving that impression, you have to admit.

Second, are you guys really taking a word like "weeaboo" seriously? (Why you gotta make me cry, Bigblah? ;_; )

Jam it back in, in the dark.

"Weeaboo" doesn't really bother me (I'm Asian, I live in Asia, I can damn well enjoy Asian entertainment without having to feel guilty about it), but still, considering that we can enjoy Disney movies, American cartoons and pop music without getting called names, you have to wonder why Westerners are derided for enjoying anime and J-pop/K-pop/whatever-pop.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Dhsu

Citing an exception that "sometimes" applies does nothing to support your argument that the radical system is anything akin to spelling. Do even 40% of kanji follow the convention you just described?

Try 90%.

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Keisei-moji (形声文字)

These are called "phono-semantic", "semantic-phonetic", "semasio-phonetic" or "phonetic-ideographic" characters in English. They are by far the largest category, making up about 90% of characters. Typically they are made up of two components, one of which indicates the meaning or semantic context, and the other the pronunciation. (The pronunciation really relates to the original Chinese, and may now only be distantly detectable in the modern Japanese on'yomi of the kanji. The same is true of the semantic context, which may have changed over the centuries or in the transition from Chinese to Japanese. As a result, it is a common error in folk etymology to fail to recognize a phono-semantic compound, typically instead inventing a compound-indicative explanation.)

As examples of this, consider the kanji with the 言 shape: 語, 記, 訳, 説, etc. All are related to word/language/meaning. Similarly kanji with the 雨 (rain) shape (雲, 電, 雷, 雪, 霜, etc.) are almost invariably related to weather. Kanji with the 寺 (temple) shape on the right (詩, 持, 時, 侍, etc.) usually have an on'yomi of "shi" or "ji". Sometimes one can guess the meaning and/or reading simply from the components. However, exceptions do exist -- for example, neither 需 nor 霊 have anything to do with weather (at least in their modern usage), and 待 has an on'yomi of "tai". That is, a component may play a semantic role in one compound, but a phonetic role in another.

Granted, the system isn't perfect, and this only helps with guessing the on-yomi (Chinese reading) of the kanji, but I have heard that after learning a certain number of kanji, it does become possible to guess at meanings and pronunciation.

As for English, it's easy for you to dismiss examples I give as "exceptions," but if spelling is so intuitive, why do we have spelling tests? Why does most people's spelling suck? Why was this article written? Someone who only has studied the alphabet and learned about what vowels and consonants are isn't going to have good spelling. Even with a decent "speaking" vocabulary, in writing, it would not be unexpected to see a child misspell words, substituting in what they feel are more intuitive spellings. An educated adult will certainly do better, because they will have gotten lots of reading practice, and will be used to English conventions. For instance, if you ask a child to spell the word "phonetically," it probably won't go so well, because they aren't used to the Ph- F sound, and even if they are, may not recognize that this is a root word being used in this longer construction.

All I'm saying is being able to break down words into subcomponents is really useful for spelling correctly in English, and likewise being able to break down words and kanji in Japanese into subcomponents is also useful.

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Honestly I don't see why you're so intent on pushing this point when Japanese has actual spelling system in the form of kana.

I just thought it was interesting that they mentioned Japanese in an article about spelling. That's why I made the original post, at least. As for this long discussion that's followed, I don't know.

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Not a fair comparison? You're the one who made it. :/

I was talking about being able to guess meaning/pronunciation when seeing a new word in print. You're talking about hearing a word and then putting it to print yourself.

Incidentally, since you make Japanese sound so completely unintuitive, "thousands upon thousands of unique squiggle configurations," why is Japan's literacy rate so high? Human Development Report 2007/2008 - Adult literacy rate (% aged 15 and older)

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weeaboo

I guess I take offense to it because it trivializes something that I've worked hard at for several years now. When most people use this term, that is the intended meaning, anyway. But then, it doesn't seem like you really meant it seriously, so nevermind.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Ridan Krad

Granted, the system isn't perfect, and this only helps with guessing the on-yomi (Chinese reading) of the kanji, but I have heard that after learning a certain number of kanji, it does become possible to guess at meanings and pronunciation.

Meaning, probably. Pronunciation, not recommended. Chinese students are actually reprimanded if they try that. There's so many exceptions, you can't ever do it reliably.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Geez, I hate to say it, but I still go with Pinyin. It really does feel like one is learning TWO langauges with Chinese, the Oral portion (complete with Pinyin to aid in Pronunciation) and the Characters.

Of course, there are even exceptions to both the characters and verbal communication that don't for both of them (i.e. certain slang or such is used only when writing).

I was told that Radicals would help you deduce the meaning. I...didn't have much luck with that. Then again, I was told that and was taught to look at the Radicals to get the meaning which can be pretty daunting for a first-time Chinese language learner. I found that instead learning commonly used words (i.e. bathroom, man, woman, food on a menu, etc) is more helpful with PERHAPS (never got this far) learning the Charactes and guessing meanings via radicals afterwards.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Bigblah

"Weeaboo" doesn't really bother me (I'm Asian, I live in Asia, I can damn well enjoy Asian entertainment without having to feel guilty about it)

Same for my case here.

But of course, since this is an English forum, it's normal for Dhsu to assume we're all westerners. As for the weaboo thing, I just didn't appreciate the fact that Dhsu insults someone for studying hard to learn a language.

Originally Posted by Dhsweeaboo

And unfortunately, you and Scarletdeath's little discussion didn't do much in the way of disproving that impression, you have to admit.

And what. We didn't mention anything about animu or obsession on Japan, just a discussion on the language that we learnt mutually. You already admit on being a weaboo yourself, just don't drag us down to your level.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

While I think Dhsu's statement is a bit extreme, I do understand his sentiment. If someone ends up learning a language purly just for entertainment purposes only, especially if its "Japanese cartoons and video games", it kinda sounds silly and childish to some people. The world still percieves anime and video games as children toys. On the other hand, if someone becomes curious of Japanese culture and language through such mediums, and pursues learning the language and the real culture and history, then I think it's a good thing that it has broaden their horizons.

But back to the spelling topic. I think people should have a basic grasp of their own language. I think the trouble is most people don't, be it English or Chinese or whatever, despite the fact you have school, teachers, dictionaries, thesaurus and the web that can tell you how to spell words you don't know or teach you to fix your grammar. So we get people who blunder their way onto the web, not knowing how to post intelligently on any forums in any language. I think it comes down to laziness and probably bad parenting on the side.

My old British English tutor enjoyed teaching me most when I was a kid, because I actually sit down and converse with her, and of course doing the occasional written work. Her other students are rude and bratty, refuse to learn and rather play video games or something and ignore her. When she tells the parents, they don't do jackshit to discipline them. I bet right now they are going to some lame Hong Kong low level school because they now suck speaking and writing English.

Originally Posted by Bigblah

"Weeaboo" doesn't really bother me (I'm Asian, I live in Asia, I can damn well enjoy Asian entertainment without having to feel guilty about it), but still, considering that we can enjoy Disney movies, American cartoons and pop music without getting called names, you have to wonder why Westerners are derided for enjoying anime and J-pop/K-pop/whatever-pop.

Completely agree. While Western people go around thinking Miyazaki is the new hot stuff back when Spirited Away was showing in theaters, to us Asians he's been our version of Disney since I was born. But of course, people will just assume we're all being "weeaboo", whatever that stupid word is derived from...

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Bigblah

"Weeaboo" doesn't really bother me (I'm Asian, I live in Asia, I can damn well enjoy Asian entertainment without having to feel guilty about it), but still, considering that we can enjoy Disney movies, American cartoons and pop music without getting called names, you have to wonder why Westerners are derided for enjoying anime and J-pop/K-pop/whatever-pop.

If Japanese America-philes are even half as annoying as the majority of their Western counterparts, then maybe they should get called names.

Originally Posted by Ridan Krad

Try 4%.
Granted, the system isn't perfect, and this only helps with guessing the on-yomi (Chinese reading) of the kanji, but I have heard that after learning a certain number of kanji, it does become possible to guess at meanings and pronunciation.

Keyword being "guess." Your point would be much stronger if each radical had a standard pronunciation and 90% of pronunciations could be determined from the combination of radicals or vice versa, but even in the original Chinese this is simply not the case.

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As for English, it's easy for you to dismiss examples I give as "exceptions," but if spelling is so intuitive, why do we have spelling tests? Why does most people's spelling suck? Why was this article written?
Someone who only has studied the alphabet and learned about what vowels and consonants are isn't going to have good spelling. Even with a decent "speaking" vocabulary, in writing, it would not be unexpected to see a child misspell words, substituting in what they feel are more intuitive spellings. An educated adult will certainly do better, because they will have gotten lots of reading practice, and will be used to English conventions. For instance, if you ask a child to spell the word "phonetically," it probably won't go so well, because they aren't used to the Ph- F sound, and even if they are, may not recognize that this is a root word being used in this longer construction.

I'll be the first to say that English is a very hard language to learn because of all the exceptions. However, there are conventions, and if you learn them you will be able to spell the majority of words correctly without looking up a dictionary. The reason spelling tests and articles like this exist is that people don't bother learning these conventions.

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All I'm saying is being able to break down words into subcomponents is really useful for spelling correctly in English, and likewise being able to break down words and kanji in Japanese into subcomponents is also useful.

That may have been what you meant, but you ended up basically saying that spelling is a different form of the radical system, which it isn't, especially for languages that are more internally consistent than English.

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I was talking about being able to guess meaning/pronunciation when seeing a new word in print. You're talking about hearing a word and then putting it to print yourself.

I'm also saying that if you know English well enough, you don't *have* to guess as to pronunciation. I don't know how it is in Japanese, but if you're given a new Chinese character, no matter how well you know the language, that's the best you can do...guess. The radical for "wood" is pronounced mu. The word for "woods" (made of two "wood" radicals) is pronounced lin. While the meaning is intuitive, the pronunciation is completely unrelated.

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Incidentally, since you make Japanese sound so completely unintuitive, "thousands upon thousands of unique squiggle configurations," why is Japan's literacy rate so high? Human Development Report 2007/2008 - Adult literacy rate (% aged 15 and older)

I would attribute that more to culture and education. A spelling system that's actually phonetic also helps, I'd imagine.

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But then, it doesn't seem like you really meant it seriously, so nevermind.

Man I just gained like 10 backpedal levels.

Originally Posted by Scarletdeath

And what. We didn't mention anything about animu or obsession on Japan, just a discussion on the language that we learnt mutually. You already admit on being a weaboo yourself, just don't drag us down to your level.

That's assuming you're not already there OSNAP.

Originally Posted by Kairi Li

whatever that stupid word is derived from...

Wow long post is long.

Edit:
Haha I just noticed this.

Originally Posted by Scarletdeath

Dhsweeaboo

Too great for words. This just got freakin' REAL.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Dhsu

That's assuming you're not already there OSNAP.

What, because you saw my "ANIMU" journal entry? I don't even watch animu. Seeing how I'm doing a design and animation (nothing to do with J-anime for that matter) course, good art is VERY relevant to me. So again, don't drag others down to your level. x10

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Edit:
Haha I just noticed this.

That is too great for words.

You know it's true

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Scarletdeath

What, because you saw my "ANIMU" journal entry? I don't even watch animu. Seeing how I'm doing a design and animation (nothing to do with J-anime for that matter) course, good art is VERY relevant to me. So again, don't drag others down to your level. x10


You know it's true

Hahaha, wow, seeing as you have clearly missed it to this point, I'll let you in on a little secret...

Your only makes my penis harder.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Bigblah

you have to wonder why Westerners are derided for enjoying anime and J-pop/K-pop/whatever-pop.

Because it's shit?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

o i c


No seriously, cut that shit out. It's bad enough when people get into an internet fight about weeabooism, we don't need more of that sort of faggotry. And you've been trolling Animespot since forever.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Shin

Because it's shit?

Gross generalisation ahoy.

Getting back to the topic at hand, I have to say I completely disagree with the points raised by the lecturer named in the top post. If people are managing to get to this level of education without a proper understanding of their language, or without the common sense to utilise the plethora of tools available to check spelling, then there's clearly an issue in the earlier education system. I can understand that he feels he shouldn't bear the burden for this failing earlier in the system, but his solution is a terrible one.

I'm a big advocate for correct spelling and whilst I would never claim to be a perfect example (I'm more than aware that I'm prone to spelling cock ups on occasion), I always try to ensure I'm as correct as possible and it bothers me when I do get things wrong. All in all I've got to agree with Crash's sentiment:

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

There's a reason spelling counts: standardization.

...

Standardization holds each of us accountable to the same rules. Without them, we could be as cavalier as we wished and chalk all misinterpretations up to reader error, not authorial stupidity. It also allows us to observe relative levels of intelligence; an employer does not wish to hire morons. It is not the employer's duty to lower the hiring requirements; it's the applicant's responsibility to achieve competency!

How ya doing, buddy?

This thread reminds of me a (stupid) joke I read:

The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5 year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have
one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters
which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a
reil sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru. Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

EDIT

I had a perfectly reasonable response to Sass but after reading all the dumb shit about weeaboo-ism on a thread discussing "is spelling important in the English language," I had to stop.

The answer to the opening question is yes. Spelling is important. It can evolve to accommodate how language is used (i.e., behavior as opposed to behaviour), but not to accommodate lazy students and their equally lazy professors.

And to those arguing Japanese usage of language and kanji forms in retrospect to English spelling and grammar, you are posting and presenting your arguments on a wrong thread. Please kindly go back to Animespot and continue your blabbering there.

FELIPE NO

What the fuck? The people who are doing that are the ones posting according to conversation flow. Or did you just glance over the lover's spat between Scarlet and Dhsu and assume that everyone is talking about lol animu?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Shanks

a (stupid) joke I read

This joke is essentially stolen from Twain

And is therefore not stupid

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Scarletdeath

Says the guy that listens to animu music. How does knowing the language make someone a weaboo. Don't be jealous now.

Dyin' at the cognitive dissonance between this and your Disgea 2 avatar and signature.

Too much.

There's nowhere I can't reach.