Professional Game Composers and Amateurism

Originally Posted by Liontamer

Honestly, the people making those complaints about lack of recognition, those people don't have the ear for it and end up missing out on a lot because they can't figure out what's what and don't put forth the effort, but that's their prerogative.

<insert Doc's post here, verbatum>

Like I said earlier, it sounds to me like you expect people to make something out of what is largely an original work disguised as an arrangement of a particular piece. Sorry to say, in most cases, it's an artist I wouldn't have interest in besides the fact they're arranging a game tune I'm interested in. Not saying the artist is bad, but sometimes I feel like I'm being conned into listening to something I would have originally skipped. And yeah, I'm not real open-minded to pieces that give me that feeling once I have it on and see what the deal with it is. I treat them the exact way I do a "professional" arrangement that gives me the same feeling.

In contrast...I listen to a lot of the original material from several doujin artists, mostly because I've been introduced to them through their arrangements (SSH, Mintjam and the recent CROWZFEST compilation and "Sword of Justice" being among the more prominant examples). Being familiar with the way these guys arrange game music and the style they apply to it, it normally strikes as something I'd want to listen to when I'm not looking for VGM arrangements. And more often than not, I highly enjoy the original stuff.

Originally Posted by Arcubalis

Haha, Gold, nice stab at my two favorite arrange albums of all time (BoT and Rockman X Alph Lyra). =P

Small world, ain't it?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Dr. Uzuki

I personally feel that stripping a piece of too much of it's original melody is a little pointless. This wouldn't automatically make a piece bad, it could still be pulled of as a worthwhile effort despite how closely connected to the base material it is. But if I go into something knowing that this is a remix of song X, I am looking to hear a different take on song X. Not a similar backbeat placed to unrecognizable development leading to a brief phrase of the original. I do go in with expectations, it's just the nature of the media.

Isn't the melody pretty much the defining basis of a composition? Well, except works that only consist of texture of course...
But I agree with that, and some other statements here.

I think an arrangement should pretty much change the style of the original piece, just upgrading the audio quality of the samples or using real instruments can hardly be called a rearrangement after all ^^. (but changing the set of instruments and choosing an appropiate style is the way to go for me)
Although personally I'm not too fond of changing the emotional impact of the piece. I remember a cover-song of R.E.M.'s "Losing my Religion" a couple of years back by some charts-pop-combo who pretty much made that song into a hyper-genki-party-dance-pop number. Which soooo fits with the lyrics...*cough*
Not a game example, but that's what I'd dislike in fan or professional rearrangements. I think one of the reasons why I don't really like Brink of Time hmm...

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Sorry about being confrontational earlier regarding the discussion. There were a lot of assumptions of bad faith regarding arrangement intent in the fan community. As a very active participant as an evaluator, bad faith assumptions on what we do aren't something to be taken lightly, especially because most people accept them at face value without any real knowledge. Informed listenerism, if you will. :-P

I'm not saying you have to like anything that sounds too liberal to you. But one thing I always see are uninformed opinions about what level of liberalism is present. People's manner of phrasing their dislike is as if these arrangements involve 75% wholly original and unrelated material, and 25% glib or passing references to the actual video game music.

I don't think anyone that's trying to provide proper tribute to the original VGM would do such a thing, though it does happen. But even for a place like OverClocked ReMix where VGM interpretation integrated with original ideas is encouraged, the lopsided hypotheticals people are implying aren't common or even encouraged.

If we're going to criticize this approach, let's at least do it with some degree of accuracy. Pretty much anything sent to OverClocked ReMix where the VGM usage is less that 50% of the track's content is going to be a no-go, and situations like that actually are pretty uncommon in the first place. That's why I'm trying to leave this "largely an original work disguised as an arrangement" stuff out of this discussion, where it belongs. No matter what some people insist, that's not what's happening in the fan arrangement community.

Having worked through situations where I've had to timestamp arrangements vs. the source VGM to verify connections (i.e. working to gain an objective point-of-view of source usage rather than subjective), OC ReMix isn't there to accept things that are largely original works. A to B connections are needed that show interpretation of the VGM material compared with the arrangement, and those should make up the majority of the arrangement always.

You don't have to like the music there based off that explanation. But it's a big leap in logic to say that fan arrangement sites are actively putting the VGM to the wayside and, in many (or most) cases, barely referencing it at all. With that said, if someone is at a loss because they can't make the connections, that's not to broadly state the track is a poor tribute. It's a just a tribute you cannot ascertain the connections to, and that's a personal thing, not "a line that shouldn't be crossed." That's where it treads into the ridiculous, on account of being such a broad edict.

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Some of y'all are implying that something like this is something that should be patently discouraged as a VGM arrangement. Because while the melody is indeed in play, the genre's not "sensitive to the original's context." And let's not forget the run-on of "why did he add these compositional cockwaving original passages, wtf, he's just glorifying himself and showing off and not tributing the game music enough." What's up with that? And while this doesn't play the arrangement straight or limit itself to genres that are close to the original, this is creative, well-executed stuff. What is inherently wrong with approaching it in this way? And that example's not doing anything that's substantially different from OC ReMix or VGMix or Dwelling of Duels or others.

While Cellius agreed with Arcubalis's statement ("should be able to interpret the music and take it somewhere different stylistically, and add their own voice to the piece"), he could conceiveably still shit on that linked Zelda II arrangement despite it using the exact same arrangement approach. He would claim that it doesn't use a viable arrangement approach, when really he needs to stick strictly to criticizing the genre and leave categorically wrong conclusions of arrangement intent out of the picture. Yes, that's an assumption on my part, but does it really seem far-fetched given what he said before about people crapping up Zelda with electronic arrangements?

I'm trying to understand where the real line is between thinking something should be discouraged because that's not playing "proper tribute" to the VGM, or because your personal opinion says you don't like that genre, but you extrapolate it as being tied to a general approach on arranging VGM. Honestly, everything I'm hearing sounds like "Well, I don't want someone to approach an arrangement "that way"...except if I like the artist and/or genre, and it sounds cool. Then it's ok." Basically what Goldfish was saying. But if you like this SMB arrangement, Goldfish, isn't that completely hypocritical? It's not even 45% Super Mario Bros. By your own reasoning re: Rockman X and Brink of Time, you would now have to dislike this as well. :-)

In practice, I'm really seeing more genre-hate than arrangement-approach-hate. And look, that's fine. But at the end of the day, y'all have to be honest enough to position your opinion as "I like what I like" rather than "this track doesn't tribute the VGM, because it's not context-sensitive and sounds ego-driven due to the original ideas added." That's clearly something that's being put aside given the right track that appeals to the ears, such as Goldfish's mention of S.S.H. But he's more upfront about it and acknowledging that it's listener preference. To me, it's nothing more than that, while Cellius asserts it's something broader and, IMO, fails.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

When I ReMix, there are a number of factors I take into account. Melody, harmony, song structure, instrumentation, rhythm, and tone. I've seen some comments in this thread regarding the "original context" or whatever of a song. That would fall under the category of "tone."

Now, when a remixer chooses a piece of music to arrange, they dig into the mechanics of what they think makes a song great. Maybe it has a strong melody, and they want to explore. Maybe the chord structure is interesting to them. Maybe the tone of the piece is haunting, and they want to recreate that. It could be any combination of what I listed above, and that will vary from person to person.

For example, I love the fzero soundtrack. My remix of Mute City preserves the tone of the original. My remix of Big Blue does not. Have I desecrated the original, because I chose to transfer parts of the melody, harmony, and rhythm to a different setting? I would say no, but that's up to the listener to decide. i personally think that by putting the original melody into a different context, it can give a fresh perspective on the composers work, and really reinforce what a great piece of music it is in the first place.

If you want to arbitrarily decide that the "original context" is the most important element of a composition, then go for it. I think that's retarded, personally, and you'll be hard pressed to find an established musician or composer who doesn't.

Just my two cents.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Liontamer

Some of y'all are implying that something like this is something that should be patently discouraged as a VGM arrangement. Because while the melody is indeed in play, the genre's not "sensitive to the original's context." And let's not forget the run-on of "why did he add these compositional cockwaving original passages, wtf, he's just glorifying himself and showing off and not tributing the game music enough."

I don't have a problem with that particular arrangement. It seems faithful enough despite the genre (it may not be technical of me to say this, but I think it maintains a certain consistent spirit, albeit with more of a techno mystique to it) and also creative enough so that it's not a simple retread. I don't much care for it, but listening to the original, I don't much care for that one either. I guess it goes to show that many things can factor into the like or dislike of something.

An ideal arrangement to me is something like McVaffe's "Crystalline Caverns" remix or Protricity's "Cursed Pirates of the Sea" remix. I like it when the creative aspects seem to add to and blend with the original intent. A recent example of something that doesn't do that, despite being a pleasant track on its own, is Pot Hocket's "Sleep, My Sephy". I can see how that sort of thing might make one wonder about the arranger's intentions. I think Xaleph's "Son of Chaos" is more appropriate and effective as an arrangement. I guess you could say that I get a sense of how much a particular arranger cares for the original track depending on the approach they take. I tend to look for that passion in an arrangement.

Originally Posted by Liontamer

Honestly, everything I'm hearing sounds like "Well, I don't want someone to approach an arrangement "that way"...except if I like the artist and/or genre, and it sounds cool. Then it's ok." Basically what Goldfish was saying. But if you like this SMB arrangement, Goldfish, isn't that completely hypocritical? It's not even 45% Super Mario Bros. By your own reasoning re: Rockman X and Brink of Time, you would now have to dislike this as well. :-)

I'm not GoldfishX, but I don't care for that one at all, and for the reasoning that the SMB aspect seems an afterthought. I see where you're going though. GoldfishX is a bigger fan of ROCK 'N than I. It's possible that the genre is playing some small role in turning me off to the track, though I believe what I'm saying when I say that the lack of SMB in an SMB-inspired track has something to do with it.

Still, it's not hypocritical of him as much as it is an admission of genre preference as an additional factor, which you do mention afterwards.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

*hates GoldFishX*

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Liontamer

But if you like this SMB arrangement, Goldfish, isn't that completely hypocritical? It's not even 45% Super Mario Bros. By your own reasoning re: Rockman X and Brink of Time, you would now have to dislike this as well. :-)

Not quite...I think it's a piss-poor arrangement, but I enjoy it as a piece of music because I happen to like the arranger's general style (though I think this is pretty uninspired and standard fare for SSH...It's not in my current queue for his music, let me put it that way). That doesn't apply to either of the other two albums, where the stuff that happens "between the lines" is complete garbage to me.

With SSH, I get a decent solo that's at least linked to the main melody and the backing riffs and doesn't sound totally out of place...More or less his signature sound, which I'm accustomed to. With BoT, I get the sound of a guy walking onstage, solos that feel totally disjointed from the main pieces, a cute voice clip that says "it's the beginning of a new and exciting era" or something to that extent, a giant crash at the end of one track, random plucking for over a minute in another track and believe it or not, the few instances of the Mario melody in the SSH track sound better to me than any single instance of any CT melody that show up on BoT (and that's not a compliment for SSH). The musicians there aren't going to get on my good side anytime soon and I have no faith in their arranging abilities. I've even said in the past I think "Time and Space" is a much more professional arrangement effort of the material, despite the "fanmade" label.* My issue with the RMX one mostly has to do with the tempos, not so much unfaithful arrangements...Listening to short, quick melodies being stretched out the way they are on that album gives me a headache. How they can envision a fast-paced rocker like Intro Stage or Storm Eagle as a slow, six minute jazz-fusion piece is beyond me, but they did it. Somehow, I don't think the majority of people who heard it got the same impression. Or at least Protricity didn't..."Brainsick Metal" is by far one of my favorite fan arranges. And then there's the factor that the music to RMX and CT is a lot more important to me than the Mario theme is (which by this point, is so overdone, I almost don't want another version of it).

So just keep in mind...There are other factors at play. It's not black and white. Which is why I said I agree with parts of what Cellius said

PS...Sorry again Dhsu...I typed out the part about piano arranges, then I remembered "Oh shit, Dhsu's the piano man around here." and added the one part at the beginning.

*The irony there is...I think it was Mustin that bought my copy of BoT.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

It's all cool, bro. In all seriosity though, a piano might be only one instrument, but what other instrument lets you hit 10 notes (or more with a little creativity) at the same time? Some might consider the piano to have a plain tone, but that's unrelated to the complexity of piano music itself.

As for the topic, I have to admit I always find these discussions very interesting, both because I used to have the exact same mentality of "honoring the composer" by keeping the arrangement as close to the original as possible, and also because nowadays I actually judge an arrangement's quality by how well the original melody has been transplanted into a radically different context. Uematsu and Mitsuda themselves do this all the time. Case in point: the Chocobo theme. Does anyone realize how absurd it would be if someone accused Electric de Chocobo of not capturing the "spirit" of the original track? That's because it's the whole point! An arrangement creates its own context, its own "spirit," so I hope people see why such complaints are moot at best.

Most amazing jew boots

I'm of the opinion that an arrangement could have 5% or simply even the same backing chord structure and still be enjoyable and a fitting remix.

I dunno, I guess I just have a more diverse taste in music. (man, that sounds arrogant, sorry)

The Black Market rap remix on the "Bound Together" Earthbound album was hilarious, so was the older Chrono Trigger "Gato" genre-crossing remix on OCR back a few years ago.

With the recent FFVII "Voices of the Lifestream" album release, a few posters on a few boards said they couldn't recognize the theme in the fanfare remix track, but I picked up on it immediately. The remix itself was great.

This is free music, guys, I can't see how you would limit yourselves to the idea that "oh, I'm just downloading this because I like the original track, I'm going to shut this off if it doesn't sound like the original (even if the song is good)". Saying that a remixer can't go against the style of the original, as if the original song is a sacred god that must not be blasphemed... that's just plain retarded. With this mindset, we'd never have great reactionary artwork or literature.

And to add, I love the F-Zero jazz album, I listen to it regularly (I know, I know... my username is a bit biased).

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by JazzFlight

F-Zero jazz album

WHERE!??? WHO? WHEN? HOW? ...LINK PLEASE!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

In my mind, a remix where you can't tell what the original song is is a pointless remix. Why do you listen to a remix? Generally because you like the original song and want to hear a slightly different take on it / different instruments used / better quality samples / whatever. If it's going to be so different than you can't even tell it's a remix of the original song, that defeats the purpose, and you're better off just calling it an original work.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by RainMan

WHERE!??? WHO? WHEN? HOW? ...LINK PLEASE!

TKCA-30516: F-ZERO - VGMdb beta

=/

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by RainMan

WHERE!??? WHO? WHEN? HOW? ...LINK PLEASE!

TKCA-30516: F-ZERO - VGMdb beta

I'll see if I can upload it tonight for you somewhere.

EDIT: SHIT, beaten. Heh, well, I'll still try to upload it later.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by niki

TKCA-30516: F-ZERO - VGMdb beta

=/

Thanks for the info. This is an unexpected surprise!

Originally Posted by JazzFlight

EDIT: SHIT, beaten. Heh, well, I'll still try to upload it later.

I'd be very grateful.

Thanks fellas.

FELIPE NO

niki or anyone else who may know, I was interested in where you saw Uematsu criticizing doujin music; were there any interview links or anything of the sort in English?

Also, was he more critical of the arrangements being unlicensed and distributed, or was it more of a stance against people illegally profiting from the sale of doujin music?

I've heard Bobby Prince is very much against fan arrangements but haven't heard anything in any detail. I'm interested in who's gone on record specifically against fan arrangements and to what level they dislike them (again, stuff illegally being sold or disliking them even being made in the first place no matter what the distribution).

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by RainMan

Thanks for the info. This is an unexpected surprise!

I'd be very grateful.

Thanks fellas.

I wouldnt really call it Jazz though, personally ... More like, cheezy easy listening with a sax or two ? ^_^;

Liontamer, I'll ask Teioh. He was the one who first mentioned it to me back in the days.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Dhsu

As for the topic, I have to admit I always find these discussions very interesting, both because I used to have the exact same mentality of "honoring the composer" by keeping the arrangement as close to the original as possible, and also because nowadays I actually judge an arrangement's quality by how well the original melody has been transplanted into a radically different context.

Actually, I think you're the first person who has said anything about keeping the arrangement as close to the original as possible. I think that the degree of variation or deviation is the only thing being disputed here. The question is, how many things can or should be changed while still retaining the notion that the track is indeed an arrangement of a preexisting one? I doubt if there's any wrong or right answer.

Originally Posted by Dhsu

An arrangement creates its own context, its own "spirit," so I hope people see why such complaints are moot at best.

You have a different definition of "spirit" is all. "Spirit" doesn't mean sticking to the same genre. It just means having some recognizable and resonant semblance of the original track. The Chocobo themes all have the same spirit even though the differences keep the underlying theme from getting stale.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by RainMan

Thanks for the info. This is an unexpected surprise!

I'd be very grateful.

Thanks fellas.

F-ZERO.zip

There's the link if anyone's interested. Good album, although if you hate "smooth" jazz, stay away.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I would think smooth jazz would be right up F-zero's alley. Chillaxin music moves me too. This will be gravy.

Thanks JazzFlight.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by RainMan

I would think smooth jazz would be right up F-zero's alley.

*listens to Mute City and Big Blue*

Huh?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by GoldfishX

*listens to Mute City and Big Blue*

Huh?

The chord progressions and voice leading would lend themselves well to jazz structure and harmony. F-zero has good source material and good rhythmic excitement, hence my statements. Of course, one might argue that Fzero's original soundtrack would lend itself "better" to rock.

Anyways, I am listening to the arrange album right now and its fantastic!

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?