[General Discussion] Top Down Shooters: A Lost Gaming Art Form

Originally Posted by Monkey King

"Classic" type shmups are every bit as much about memorization as "bullet hell" types, though. The former typically requires you to memorize what enemy pattern or giant attack is coming next, so you can avoid it in advance before it flies straight into you. A lot of those bosses tend to give you very little warning before their giant laser beams of death, which comes across to me as exceedingly cheap.

Taking your example, it sounds like the main survival strategy in Raiden is simply knowing in advance where to put your ponderous ship, since your slow speed precludes dodging those wide, short bursts if you don't know they're coming.

Actually, Raiden doesn't really depend heavily on memorization (or at least, not the ones I play). You can do a pretty good job at shooting the targets to smithereens before they open fire, you just have to remain really vigilant to see which targets come on screen, then shoot at them as soon as you see them. For example, once you see a vulcan turret or something, it starts rotating, and you're able to shoot it down before it makes your life miserable.

Originally Posted by Elixir

A person who likes shooters shouldn't provoke others who don't like certain types of shooters just because they don't play them - that's stupid.

No, it wasn't because I don't play/like bullet hells, it was just because... it's Touhou. My friend's idiotic narutard-esque fanboyism of that game was reaching critical levels and I just couldn't take it anymore. I wanted to remain friends.

Originally Posted by elixir

Also I'm guessing you haven't played dodonpachi daioujou, which REQUIRES you to know weak spots as well as dodging curtain fire plus chaining for lives you're going to be needing on stage 5.

Really? Yeah, I haven't played that game, and I've been meaning to, but from what the videos seen the bosses have no weak points. You just shoot at their huge bodies endlessly until they die. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was the essence of bosses in bullet hells and CAVE games.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by PsychoJosh

Really? Yeah, I haven't played that game, and I've been meaning to, but from what the videos seen the bosses have no weak points. You just shoot at their huge bodies endlessly until they die. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was the essence of bosses in bullet hells and CAVE games.

It depends on the boss itself. Like, for stage 1 of daioujou, weakening either left or right cannon until it's blinking red and killing it when it begins to rotate will drop two hypers instead of one. Although this increases the rank significantly and the first boss becomes quite hard.

On stage 4, bombing when the little spinny things all close in together (provided you're in the middle) will most definitely finish the boss off.

There's also stuff for other CAVE games, like Mushihime, where leaving the feet of the stage 2 boss but still killing it will rack up heaps of points, but it also makes killing it harder. There's times where you'd have to dodge without shooting to pull this off (and it's much harder if you're using W-power).

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

TGS says hi

So, Ikaruga has finally been confirmed. No more baseless rumours, no more wild guestimates from Partnernet, no more ambigious wording from old Treasure interviews. No NOTHING. Am I surprised? Not entirely. Good, though.

Ikaruga (And Rez, awesome), are coming to Live arcade. This puts this topic officially to rest.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I told you so.

Also from that article:

Quote:

10:50 - Next, Xbox 360 games. PGR4, Ace Combat 6, Kingdom Under Fire, Assasin's Creed, Devil May Cry 4, Gundam Operation Troy. IT LIVES!!!!!!!, Gundam Musou International, Dynasty Wariors 6, Shikigami no Shiro III, Smash Court Tennis 3, NBA Live 08, Beautiful Katamari Damacy, Operation Darkness, Zoid Alternative, Guilty Gear 2 Overture, Soul Calibur IV, Bladestorm, Dark Sector, Medal of Honor Airborne, Atsmuare Pinata Lets Party, Apocalypse Desire Next, Fantasy Star Univers Illuminous no Yabou, Sega Rally, Halo 3, Lost Odyssey.

heh viva pinata sequel

Shikigami no Shiro III's coming to 360 and Wii. I have Shikigami no Shiro II for Gamecube (Limited Edition with cat figure) and it's a lot of fun. The game feels very polished from the Dreamcast version.

I tried Shikigami no Shiro III for PC in October last year, but eh, it's very graphic intensive and I couldn't run it (funny how touhou is fine for me though).






I might buy it for Wii since I have the VC controller. I don't like the 360's dpad (no one likes the 360's dpad).

I was speaking idiomatically.

I never said it wasn't coming, I was saying we shouldn't trust Partnernet as a source when it's not always been reliable. But hey, I knew either you or Slayer would pipe up with something like that before long.

Anyway, if they bring Shiro over, I'd be happy. Do it as Mobile Fucking Light Force 3 if you have to, but damn.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Just thought I'd throw this in for thoes interested. It's Screw Attack's top 10 2D shooters countdown. MAn I TOTALLY forgot about Raptor, I know I've got it around here somewhere cause I want to play it again now. lol

Gametrailers.com - ScrewAttack, Top Ten 2-D Shooters

FELIPE NO

Wow that isn't worth watching. Not a single CAVE game mentioned, Raiden wasn't mentioned, and they actually mocked bullet hell shooters because "they actually like shooters where you can move."

I guess they haven't actually played through their precious #2 Ikaruga, then.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I realize that no one's list of whatever is going to match, but some of their comments are just brazenly stupid. That's every show on gaming I watch, though. I'm hoping one day I can watch a program and not feel insulted most of the time. OUTSPONDEDAlso, Elixir can catch the Touhou jab at the Ikaruga section of the feature if he wants to endure the torture./OUTSPONDED

Face value, there were some nice choices. Axelay and Raptor... the rest of it just seems like classic oversight. Somehow I wasn't so surprised when Area 88/UN Squadron topped the list.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

OUTSPONDEDAlso, Elixir can catch the Touhou jab at the Ikaruga section of the feature if he wants to endure the torture./OUTSPONDED

It's not a touhou jab, it's a CAVE jab. They show a quick piece of fighting Hibachi (first form) in stage 5 of dodonpachi daioujou. First bullet pattern. Probably the easiest part of the whole boss too.

How ya doing, buddy?

It's a broad sweeping comment-- and you want to get particular about the game in the screen shot they use just to disagree. I'm not going to ask if you're a faggot, Elixir. So, it is definitely JUST about Cave and not the style of gameplay involved in those types of shooters. Thank you.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Considering all their picks are (mostly) mainstream, I highly doubt they even know touhou exists. CAVE are the only ones who still make bullet hell shooters for consoles. It's also very contradictory, seeing as how Ikaruga has about as much "ship movement" in stage 4 and 5 as the one they showed. And just as many bullets.

Even so it's unlikely they'd include a doujin shmup in their list of top 10 shooters.

Good to know you and them share the same train of thought. "It has lots of bullets! Let's show a clip of something with a lot of bullets!"

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Nice edit, Elixir. "Fucking moron", was it? Did it happen again as I type this?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Sort of. Elixir, when they mention "I'd rather move in my shooters", it isn't targeting just "CAVE." There are other games that PLAY like that, it doesn't matter if they've only played ONE. Even if they don't know others exist, that's what being "brazenly stupid" is. Sort of like what you're doing right now. Let me continue, like you or anyone else have a choice until a mod says otherwise.

I really just have to ask, why? Why do you insist on being the reason being a gamer is synonymous with "worthless?" They, ScrewAttack, mentioned that UN Squadron was better than the arcade counterpart, which shows that they probably played Area 88 in the Arcades or at least knew about it. Of course their picks are mainstream, but I'm sure they at least attempted homework and as "gamers" they say they are, they have jumped into the little internet machine you have. Information and knowledge isn't special if you're the only person that knows about it, and your assumption you do is a pretty large display of your lack of character. Yes, Elixir, this is a lecture now. I am great at them, and you're probably going to be great at trying to trade blows instead. I thank you in advance, but I'll do it anyway.

I don't know if you seem to think that your cataloged set of gaming information is a mystery to anyone but you, it sure does seem that way. Just so you know, it's not.

Again, I know you just have to try and get the last word. That's really the issue here. Who wants to discuss with you when you're so busy hogging the baton in the retard relay? Your word filter isn't because people find you amusing, it's because you're obnoxious and you do this to topics and discussions that could be about learning without the bullshit. Interactions that could be about discourse rather than "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE NOT."

Is that what you want? Don't answer. Rhetorical.

I've learned nothing from you. And apparently, you've learned nothing at all from our previous little encounters. This is sad, Elixir. I really don't enjoy this, there's nothing I can do or say to you that you aren't already doing to yourself. ScrewAttack? As mainstream as they are? They are successful in being consistently accessible. That's the difference between them and you. Between you and myself. Again, thanks for nothing, Elixir.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

Quite frankly all I've seen from you is constant confrontations in every thread you enter because it's obviously a great way of building character, post count, and a face all at once.

Kid. I don't come on these forums to be ridiculed constantly by some jumped up little shit who thinks he knows it all. If I wanted a "learning" thread, I'd visit wikipedia. No, like most people, I visit gamingforce because gamingforce is for amusing fun times! And bunny rabbits and kawaii rainbows and monkies of the infernal kind and such, not shit. Gotta educate myself after a hard day of work. New game? Fuck yeah, ESSAY TIME ON SAID NEW GAME.

Nobody's forcing you to respond to this thread at all. Nobody is forcing you to read anything and of course nobody's mature enough to lecture someone over PM instead of on the forum, kind of like 90% of your unnecessary response.


Fact here is that, they're saying their second favourite shooting game is Ikaruga which requires precise movement and knowledge of the stages, yet they're ratting on bullet hell shooters although they are the exact same damn thing. Now, I don't care if they used CAVE as an example or not. The lack of any CAVE games whatsoever in their list is a little suspicious. I mean really, no CAVE shooters at all? It's not like every single CAVE game ever produced which is a shooter is bullet hell. No.

In an case their list sucked, Tyrian didn't get a mention. Or Raiden /II/DX. Or Radiant Silvergun.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Just to prove you're both up your own asses, it was a jab at bullet hell shooters in general as opposed to Cave or touhou. Both of those are just as specific, so shut up already.

FELIPE NO

I've always liked these kind of games despite if they were bullt hell games or not. I guess one of the biggest reasons why I love these style of games is that out of all the games that I do play there are not very many games that give you that WTF????????? feeling.

I haven't played many of the strictly japanese top down shooters, and its a game style I've only recently got into but I love it in these games when your fighting a boss and he/she throws this bullet hell move, and the first thought that comes into your mind in a split second is How In The Hell Am I Suppose To Dodge This. There aren't many games that give me that same kind of feeling anymore. Throughout the mass amount of bullets you can't help but wonder and be amazed of how colourful it looks and it just gives you the immediate feeling of frustration.

I'll probably end up giving a poor example:

Ever since I got Castle Shikigami 2 I've been whoring out that game as much as possible just to get all the endings and open up all the artwork. The first boss for World 5, I think his name is Shin. This boss still frustrates me to this very day. He throws this one move at you, when you almost have his life bar depleted. That he throws all these red and green arrow projectiles and totally fill up the entire screen in every direction and it gives me that WTF satisfaction. I just look in utter amazement and say there is no way I can dodge that and amazingly enough I manage to dodge it on a very rare occassion.

I'm sure Touhou and other vertical/horizontal games probably have worse bullet hells than that game, but I kind of love that unexpected satisfaction when you don't know what kind of bullet pattern the boss is going to throw at you. The more insane the bullet hell is, the more I'm satisfied and frsutrated all at the same time.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?