[Wii] Virtual Console Rip-off

Originally Posted by devilmaycry

"Fair" pricing is determined by other offering in the "market", since the other offering are free and even have better quality, free is the only fair price for VC games. As simple as that.

Uhm...what? Free ROMs wouldn't be considered another price in the market, considering that it's an illegal way to play games. Furthermore, you think making the VC games free is the only fair price? That's pretty ignorant, considering the cost of upkeep that Nintendo pays to keep those games online, as well as being able to add new content. If you don't pay for the games, the service won't exist. Won't be a problem for you though, now would it? Honestly, emulation has inflated people's expectations to a disgusting degree. Yeah, I used to tinker with SNES9x in the past, but I would definitely pay to play those games again when they're actually being supported by Nintendo.

Anyway, to contribute, I love the idea of the Virtual Console, but I know I'll only be using it for the big titles on SNES, Genesis and maybe N64. The problem is that I can see myself taking 5000 Wii points and spending them very easily, so I'm trying not to use the service too much right now. Although, I did purchase Sonic the Hedgehog for the Genesis, and it has been emulated perfectly. I'm really impressed with the whole process of downloading these old games.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by ramoth

My main point above was that the VC isn't Nintendo's big money maker, nor is it their loss leader -- that would be the console. The general model for console manufacturers is that you sell the console at cost or take a loss and make the money and profit on licensing fees for people who make games (and on 1st party titles, the markup that normally gets passed on for the licensing fee turns into straight profit).

What's even funnier is that Nintendo doesn't take a loss on their console sales, they make a profit.

It was only Microsoft and Sony this gen that are losing money on their hardware sales.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by JazzFlight

What's even funnier is that Nintendo doesn't take a loss on their console sales, they make a profit.

It was only Microsoft and Sony this gen that are losing money on their hardware sales.

I assumed they sold them at cost. Go Nintendo.

(Also, the original Xbox was a loss for MS)

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by devilmaycry

Sure that Nintendo may be able to get money from the scraps left by those who don't download the entire SNES + MD + N64 Romset, but how many are these? Not many and defenitely not me.

You're assuming way too much. The amount of people that don't even know what a ROM is, even among gamers outweigh those that do. There are plenty of people who play games and have the internet and are either highly computer illirate or just plain stupid. Also even people who do know about ROMs may choose not to use them simply because of the fact that they're illegal and not everyone is willing to download something illegaly just because it's free even if they know there is practically no way they will get caught.

Also I would assume with Virtual Console, X-Box Live Arcade, and Sony's thing coming around wer'e gonna see gaming companies cracking down on ROM sites alot. The only reliable ROM site I know of already has been forced to remove everything involving Mario or Final Fantasy among other things.

You're assuming everyone acts and thinks like you which based on every response you've gotten, clearly isn't the case.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by ramoth

Yet, Apple makes millions of dollars on this, continues to attract more and more people, and are showing steady, healthy growth. You're completely missing the point here. A lot of people said that if the music was there for free, NOBODY would pay for it online, ever. Yet, clearly millions of people are downloading music, movies, TV shows from iTunes. All of these things were available for free online. So, I'm not sure what your point is other than trolling and typing poorly.

On wikipedia there a link to an article stating that as of 2004 (we are almost in 2007 now and the net keeps growing) that P2P traffic ammounts to 10 petabytes of data, let's assume that only 2 petabytes are music. Now what is a few millions when compared to 2 petabytes? In my book it's nobody, but whatever you say.

Originally Posted by ramoth

Here's my speculation as to why people like iTunes:

I dunno, but I know why people like the other alternative better, 'cause it's free.

Originally Posted by ramoth

Anyway, going back to Nintendo, I think this also applies to the VC: of course, the games are still exactly the same, but... on an emulator, you're using the keyboard (or a joypad if you feel like dealing with drivers and poorly made pads). VC, you get to use a high quality controller made by Nintendo. Plus, you get to play the games on your TV, just like they were supposed to be -- something always felt weird about playing a SNES game on the computer, to me. Didn't feel natural, somehow.

I use a USB Logitech Precision and it's by far better than any other offering in the PC and console market when it comes to digital pads and it doesn't require any drivers or installation, it's just plug and play. For 3D games I use the MS Xbox 360 controller that was the same quality as a console pad (since it's indeed a console pad). And yeah, playing on a monitor sure feels wrong, after all the superior color gamut and overscan adjustment, the fine control over the image displayed, the progressive display and the digital input will defenitely ruin the SNES experience.

Originally Posted by ramoth

So basically, stop trolling.

Ok I get it, I'm trolling and you aren't, sorry about that.

Originally Posted by DarkMageOzzie

You're assuming way too much. The amount of people that don't even know what a ROM is, even among gamers outweigh those that do. There are plenty of people who play games and have the internet and are either highly computer illirate or just plain stupid.

You have a point there, while normally gamers are not computer illiterate alot of them can be when it comes to emulation. I'll give you that.

Originally Posted by DarkMageOzzie

Also even people who do know about ROMs may choose not to use them simply because of the fact that they're illegal and not everyone is willing to download something illegaly just because it's free even if they know there is practically no way they will get caught.

You think too highly of the people don't you? Or maybe it's just me that think too low of them, regardless of what that I belive that everyone who knows about ROMs and likes old games uses them, it would be silly not to.

Originally Posted by DarkMageOzzie

The only reliable ROM site I know of already has been forced to remove everything involving Mario or Final Fantasy among other things.

The 2 I know just keep growing, one of them even bragged about having an uptime of over an 1 year, but they ask a donation for access to bigger ROMsets.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by devilmaycry

"Fair" pricing is determined by other offering in the "market", since the other offering are free and even have better quality, free is the only fair price for VC games. As simple as that.

LMAO. Yeah, as if emulators on PC are perfect, let alone better than the original hardware.

Quote:

The only people with unrealistic expectation here is Nintendo who expects people to pay for stuff they can get for free, better and non restricted.

Actually I think your expectation that so many people will know about emulation and where to get ROMs is the unrealistic one. Not to mention your mistaken notion that ROMs are somehow better than the originals.

Anyway, I figure all it will take is a little customer backlash or a little bad press and Nintendo will make it their policy to transfer VC games when repairing/replacing Wiis. Or it might even already be their policy and they're just not talking about it.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by ArrowHead

LMAO. Yeah, as if emulators on PC are perfect, let alone better than the original hardware.

SNES/Megadrive roms are usually perfect dumps of the originals.

I don't think this is a matter of free roms vs. paying for downloadable content. I think this is a matter of people like to pay for old games they can't get even if they're able to use roms. If I had a Wii, I'd purchase Virtual Console games.

Why? Because they have the classic controller, and because I already know what SNES and Megadrive games I want. Everything is entirely optional, and you don't even need to use the Virtual Console, much like you don't need to use the Xbox Live Marketplace.

If you don't like it, don't use it.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by devilmaycry

On wikipedia there a link to an article stating that as of 2004 (we are almost in 2007 now and the net keeps growing) that P2P traffic ammounts to 10 petabytes of data, let's assume that only 2 petabytes are music. Now what is a few millions when compared to 2 petabytes? In my book it's nobody, but whatever you say.

A few million dollars, kid. How much money does your P2P traffic make you?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by ArrowHead

LMAO. Yeah, as if emulators on PC are perfect, let alone better than the original hardware.

Actually I think your expectation that so many people will know about emulation and where to get ROMs is the unrealistic one. Not to mention your mistaken notion that ROMs are somehow better than the originals.

Anyway, I figure all it will take is a little customer backlash or a little bad press and Nintendo will make it their policy to transfer VC games when repairing/replacing Wiis. Or it might even already be their policy and they're just not talking about it.

1. What you get on VC is the same ROMs you get on any ROMs page, the only diference is the VC ROMs have DRM on it and you pay for that.

2. Emulators on PC are not perfect, but so aren't Nintendo's, and when in doubt I'll go with what I know it's good. I dunno about SNES or SNES emulators that much but I know about Megadrive and when it comes to it nothing beats Kega and Steve Snake, not only he's been working on Megadrive emulation for 10 years as he's also a game programmer with a long carrier and actually was part of teams that coded Megadrive retail games.

Now let me see, will I go with a trusted developer with 10 years of emu experience plus even more real world game coding or will I go with god knows who or how or when coded the VC MD emulator? ... Tough choice.
As for SNES I'll leave it alone since I dunno much about it, but I do know that SNES emu's are open source and that weights a lot on my book.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Megalixir

I don't think this is a matter of free roms vs. paying for downloadable content. I think this is a matter of people like to pay for old games they can't get even if they're able to use roms.

Humm?

Originally Posted by surasshu

A few million dollars, kid. How much money does your P2P traffic make you?

2x Humm?

Could you guys explain yourselfs better? I really don't understand what you said.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Quote:

2. Emulators on PC are not perfect, but so aren't Nintendo's

But you haven't even used the Virtual Console service. Is it really so hard for you to understand that some people actually like paying for video games? =| I don't know how much longer this merry-go-round's going to last!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by devilmaycry

2x Humm?

Could you guys explain yourselfs better? I really don't understand what you said.

What I meant was:

Pay service (ie. iTunes): Makes millions of dollars.
Free service (ie. Soulseek): Makes approximately 0 dollars.

Can you see why Nintendo would go for the first option? Or, why would any serious company even consider the second?

Also, 10 petabytes of data sounds like a lot, but when you break it down, it's not that impressive. If every P2P dude moves 100MB of data each year (not that much, you would agree I'm sure), you would need 10 million people to achieve 10 petabytes of data traffic each year. This is the same amount of people that have an iTunes account, according to Apple (other estimates are 200 million and 100 million users).

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Infernal Monkey

Is it really so hard for you to understand that some people actually like paying for video games? =|

When you can get them for free and better, yes it is. For example, I like turkey even if I have to pay for it, but if I can get turkey with the same quality for free I like it even more and will never buy any turkey again, I'll just eat the free one 'cause it's free. Wouldn't you do the same?

Originally Posted by surasshu

What I meant was:

Pay service (ie. iTunes): Makes millions of dollars.
Free service (ie. Soulseek): Makes approximately 0 dollars.

Can you see why Nintendo would go for the first option? Or, why would any serious company even consider the second?

Of course I can see why Nintendo goes with the first option, what I can't see is why anybody would go with it. Check my free turkey analogy up here.

Originally Posted by surasshu

Also, 10 petabytes of data sounds like a lot, but when you break it down, it's not that impressive. If every P2P dude moves 100MB of data each year (not that much, you would agree I'm sure), you would need 10 million people to achieve 10 petabytes of data traffic each year. This is the same amount of people that have an iTunes account, according to Apple (other estimates are 200 million and 100 million users).

How many user are registered is irrelevant, how many songs were downloaded is, iTunes sold so far 1,5 billion of songs, at average 5Mb per song it's 8Pb and took them 3 years to reach this number, meanwhile only god knows how many songs have been downloaded during these 3 years on the P2P networks. Anyway let's say they are even 'cause since P2P is decentralized no one really knows how much has been download, these 10Pb was a estimate of how much was available to download on all P2P networks in 2004 (or so they say).

I was speaking idiomatically.

Quote:

When you can get them for free and better, yes it is. For example, I like turkey even if I have to pay for it, but if I can get turkey with the same quality for free I like it even more and will never buy any turkey again, I'll just eat the free one 'cause it's free. Wouldn't you do the same?

Lol not the same thing.
A better anaolgy would be, in order to get the free turkey, you have to vote for the free turkey charity at 3 differet "top charity" websites and then be forced to sit through hentai and offered services you don't want before eating your turkey. But wait, it doesn't stop there. Sometimes your turkey may not even get delivered, the turkey dlivery truck might crash en route. Who knows? Maybe your turkey will fall apart or be hacked up as you eat it? Not only that but you're forbidden from using a knife and fork, instead you must use chopsticks to devour your turkey.

That's what downloading roms is like.

I for one embrace the Virtual Console and I'll gladly pay for it over downloading roms. In fact, I recently deleted all my old roms.

But hey I'm one of those fuckers who still buys CDs and prefers iTunes to bitorrent

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by devilmaycry

How many user are registered is irrelevant, how many songs were downloaded is, iTunes sold so far 1,5 billion of songs, at average 5Mb per song it's 8Pb and took them 3 years to reach this number, meanwhile only god knows how many songs have been downloaded during these 3 years on the P2P networks. Anyway let's say they are even 'cause since P2P is decentralized no one really knows how much has been download, these 10Pb was a estimate of how much was available to download on all P2P networks in 2004 (or so they say).

Why do I feel as if comparing one downloading service to the P2P network which is accessible over various different clients, inaccurate?

Put it like this. Downloading licensed songs is illegal and is equal to stealing an item from a store. Purchasing the song is legal and is equal to buying an item from a store. Whether you like it or not, people will always prefer the guiltless option which happens to incorporate your next-generation console with all your old favorites, that are easily playable with the classic controller.

You would be surprised just how many people don't know about roms, and how to download games for free. Buying an old console and trying to hunt for an old SNES cartridge would be a chore, in comparison to downloading it on a newly released console that's easily accessible to your common joe.

Originally Posted by RABicle

Not only that but you're forbidden from using a knife and fork, instead you must use chopsticks to devour your turkey.

USB controllers are available for emulators, dude.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by RABicle

Lol not the same thing.
A better anaolgy would be, in order to get the free turkey, you have to vote for the free turkey charity at 3 differet "top charity" websites and then be forced to sit through hentai and offered services you don't want before eating your turkey. But wait, it doesn't stop there. Sometimes your turkey may not even get delivered, the turkey dlivery truck might crash en route. Who knows? Maybe your turkey will fall apart or be hacked up as you eat it? Not only that but you're forbidden from using a knife and fork, instead you must use chopsticks to devour your turkey.

That sure is a good one. But if you know the right places you can get your stuff without voting or any other kind of assle, the trick here is to know where to get your turkey :P

Anyway, I just readed a article saying Wii outputs the VC games at 240p. That's very intresting, it would do those dithering effects flawlessly, a thing that's not possible on monitors or Xbox/PC TV-Out without tricks, Kega does it by software but doesn't look as good as a real TV. Unfortunly the Megadrive sound emulation apparently is crappy, I guess Kega wins the first round.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Elixir

USB controllers are available for emulators, dude.

Yeah I have one. It's terrible. The fucking dpad doesn't even work. Can you even imagine playing Snes games with a joystick? It's a sin.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Megalixir

Downloading licensed songs is illegal and is equal to stealing an item from a store.

Downloading songs is not stealing, it's copyright infringement, copyright comes from the words copy + rights that means, rights to copy, that is who detain what right to copy the content and how. When you download stuff you are abusing your right to copy stuff, you are NOT stealing. This statement just proves how the media industry has totaly distorted the law in the minds of the poor impressionable youngsters. So dude copyright infrigement is not stealing.

Originally Posted by RABicle

Yeah I have one. It's terrible. The fucking dpad doesn't even work. Can you even imagine playing Snes games with a joystick? It's a sin.

Get a USB Logitech Precision pad, costs 13€ and works like a charm.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by devilmaycry

Downloading songs is not stealing, it's copyright infringement, copyright comes from the words copy + rights that means, rights to copy, that is who detain what right to copy the content and how. When you download stuff you are abusing your right to copy stuff, you are NOT stealing. This statement just proves how the media industry has totaly distorted the law in the minds of the poor impressionable youngsters. So dude copyright infrigement is not stealing.

You have something that you're supposed to pay for. You didn't pay for it. Not only is it stealing, but it's additionally breaking laws and warranting fines. If you're so keen on your piracy, give us your information so we can submit it to the RIAA.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Quote:

Anyway, I just readed a article saying Wii outputs the VC games at 240p.

That's good news, because 2D games look like shit on 480p.

Quote:

Yeah I have one. It's terrible. The fucking dpad doesn't even work. Can you even imagine playing Snes games with a joystick? It's a sin.

Why would you play it with a joystick? I have a saturn controller for PC which works fine with all games (doujins, touhou series, SNES and Megadrive games) and I think there's even SNES controllers for PC. Not official or anything though.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Lukage

You have something that you're supposed to pay for. You didn't pay for it. Not only is it stealing, but it's additionally breaking laws and warranting fines. If you're so keen on your piracy, give us your information so we can submit it to the RIAA.

Someone needs a dictionary:

Verb
to steal (third-person singular simple present steals, present participle stealing, simple past stole, past participle stolen)

(transitive) To illegally, or without the owner's permission, take possession of something by surreptitiously taking or carrying it away.

(intransitive) To be involved in illegally taking possession of by surreptitiously taking or carrying away; to commit theft.

Did you took some kind of possesion from someone when you downloaded you music/movies? I don't think so.



Noun
copyright (uncountable and countable. plural: copyrights)
(uncountable) The right by law to be the entity which determines who may publish, copy and distribute a piece of writing, music, picture or other work of authorship.
(countable) Such an exclusive right as it pertains to one or more specific works.

When you downloaded your music/movies did you ignored that you don't have the right to do it? You sure did but that's not stealing.
(both entries taken from Wiktionary.org)


See kids at home? Copyright violation is not stealing. Whenever someone tries to tell this to you be suspicous, you never know when the media corporations are about :-P

How ya doing, buddy?

So I sent Nintendo an email asking about what happens to my virtual console games if my Wii was to break down, and I had to send it in for a replacement. Nintendo sent me a reply stating that 'You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel-Air.'

I begged and pleaded with them day after day But they packed my suite case and sent me on my way They gave me a kiss and then they gave me my ticket. I put my walkman on and said, 'I might as well kick it'.

First class, yo this is bad Drinking orange juice out of a champagne glass? Is this what the people of Bel-Air Live like? Hmmmmm this might be alright.

But wait I hear they're prissy, bourgeois and all that Is this the type of place that they send this cool cat? I don't think so I'll see when I get there I hope they're prepared for the prince of Bel-Air

Well, ah, the plane landed and when I came out There was a dude looked like a cop standin' there with my name out I ain't trying to get arrested yet I just got here I sprang with the quickness like lightening, disappeared

I whistled for a cab and when it came near The license plate said fresh and it had dice in the mirror If anything I can say that this cab was rare But I thought 'Man forget it' - 'Yo homes to Bel-Air' I pulled up to the house about 7 or 8 And I yelled to the cabbie 'Yo holmes smell ya later' I looked at my kingdom I was finally there To sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel-Air. And here I thought Nintendo was an honest company.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Oh I don't mean joystick joystick. Lol. I have a Gravis Eliminator Aftershock

The dPad does not agree with SNES9X

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by devilmaycry

Of course I can see why Nintendo goes with the first option, what I can't see is why anybody would go with it.

I doubt you will.

I for one rarely illegally download anything. Some music here and there but that's about it. None of the music I download do i archive however, only my own rips (off CD's I own) get archived. Additionally, I've never ROMed because it just doesn't seem right to play all those great games without paying for them. Playing Zelda: OoT in 16x9 is unbelieveably tempting, however I want to pay Nintendo my money so I can get to buy a new Zelda game every couple of years. I support the company, hell the people working at the company, buy purchasing their products as opposed to stealing/downloading/copy-infringing. The experiences that theyve brought into my life are worth my money. If you aren't willing to pay for what some else owns, and for something that is worth $5 of your money, then you are a no good, leeching, cheap-ass son of a bitch.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by devilmaycry

Someone needs a dictionary:

Want to be a smartass? You're stealing the electronic transmitions that were illegally uploaded. I want to see your argument hold up in court. "Wikipedia says otherwise, your honor. I'm not stealing anything."

Phoenix Wright would be on you sooo fast!



Jam it back in, in the dark.

Phoenix... Phoenix Wright is a defense attorney, though.

There's nowhere I can't reach.