The annual Seal Hunt

Originally Posted by PUG1911

Plus the argument that other animals are 'cruely killed' is hardly a great defence for the pro-sealing argument.

Not that I really have a stance on the issue one way or the other, just that the last argument on the matter seemed a little off.

The clubbing and cruel deaths is the argument that the McCartneys are using, I am saying that other animals that we hunt can also die cruel deaths, since this is the case, shouldn't the McCartneys be making a stance against those too? Not just the over-populated species that happen to be cute?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

The Canadian seal cull is barbaric. I'm sorry but nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. I did a presentation last summer on Canadian laws (lack thereof more appropriatly) and animal rights. I did my research. I showed recent video footage of seals being clubbed, inlcuding the white coated seals, then left to die on the ice. It's digusting. My presentation also inlcuding the trapping of animals, animals used in bloodsports, animals raised for consumption, animals used in laboratory testing and animals (cats & dogs) raised to be sold - can't seem to remember the term this is given. There's no such thing as any Canadian law to protect these animals from this obvious torture. And the clubbing of white coated seals is only a regulation not a law. I don't recall anyone facing sanctions for killing baby seals. And lets cut the bullshit. Baby seals are killed in the cull...

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

The Canadian seal cull is barbaric. I'm sorry but nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. I did a presentation last summer on Canadian laws (lack thereof more appropriatly) and animal rights. I did my research. I showed recent video footage of seals being clubbed, inlcuding the white coated seals, then left to die on the ice. It's digusting. My presentation also inlcuding the trapping of animals, animals used in bloodsports, animals raised for consumption, animals used in laboratory testing and animals (cats & dogs) raised to be sold - can't seem to remember the term this is given. There's no such thing as any Canadian law to protect these animals from this obvious torture. And the clubbing of white coated seals is only a regulation not a law. I don't recall anyone facing sanctions for killing baby seals. And lets cut the bullshit. Baby seals are killed in the cull...

Clearly you did not read the artical I posted.

The Seal Hunt: Myths and Facts

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Linking to a Canadian government website for the facts on seal culling is like telling me to read the Bush administration's official report on Sept 11. I think I prefer to get my information from a more trust worthy source.

But just to go along with the Myths/Facts game.
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/sp...s%20facts.html

Like I said though you cannot change my mind. The seal cull whether done using clubs, picks, rifles, grenades, or appache gunships strickly to fuel the fur trading industry is cruel and unnecessary.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

Like I said though you cannot change my mind. The seal cull whether done using clubs, picks, rifles, grenades, or appache gunships strickly to fuel the fur trading industry is cruel and unnecessary.

Uhh okay. How much bacteria do you think you've killed in your life? Bacteria is a living organism too!

Where do you draw the line in the animal "right to life" movement?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

There are two things that make humans unique. We possess rationality and the ability to feel pleasure and pain. Animals while not rational can also experience pleasure and pain. A single cell organism possess neither. Drawing the line is easy. although bacteria are a living organism they are not included.

As humans our rights do and should supercede those of other animals but I also feel that slaughtering 1 million seals is cleary over stepping our boundaries. It's time Canadian law recognises this and introduce laws to protect wildlife from cruelty and torture.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

There are two things that make humans unique. We possess rationality and the ability to feel pleasure and pain. Animals while not rational can also experience pleasure and pain.

You said there were two things that make humans unique. You've named one: rationality. You bundled it with the ability to feel pleasure and pain, but then said that animals can also feel pleasure and pain.

So what's the second thing?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

You said there were two things that make humans unique. You've named one: rationality. You bundled it with the ability to feel pleasure and pain, but then said that animals can also feel pleasure and pain.

So what's the second thing?

Sorry should have been clearer those were the two things. Rationality being the first, our ability to feel pleasure and pain being the second.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

Sorry should have been clearer those were the two things. Rationality being the first, our ability to feel pleasure and pain being the second.

Which then contradicts your earlier statement that animals can feel pleasure and pain, as well as humans.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

It's time Canadian law recognises this and introduce laws to protect wildlife from cruelty and torture.

Aren't there already laws in place to protect animals from cruelty and torture? Your link implied as much. If there's 1 million seals being slaughtered every hunt year, and only about 660 cases of documented cruelty isn't that a pretty decent ratio of the humane killing of the seals? Yes, it's not just limited to those 660 cases, but I sincerely doubt that all the hunters that go out to hunt seals merely do it to torture them. And it's not just for the fur either.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

Which then contradicts your earlier statement that animals can feel pleasure and pain, as well as humans.

Humans and animals can both feel pleasure and pain but animals are not rational agents. An animal can't stop and think about the cosmos and nature in the way you can. This ability to think is what makes humans superior to other animals. But the fact is animals can feel pleasure and pain which means they do have a certain amount of cognitive capacity more so than an amoeba does. Because a seal can feel pleasure and pain I would conclude by saying that smashing it in the face with a club is a rather unethical practice.

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And that, then, leaves us with the other of those two things you said there were that make humans unique. If the ability to feel pain and pleasure isn't unique to humans, what is that second thing?

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Jackyboy,

So Canada is a lawless country? Sounds a might extreme. Any links to back that up would be great. First time I've heard of it in that kind of light, and would very much like to know the other areas wherein Canadian law is lacking.

"They observed sealers at work from the air and from the ground, and performed post-mortems on 73 seal carcasses. Their study concluded that up to 42% of the seals they examined were likely skinned alive." This is from the link you posted earlier. So, of the million seals killed in a season, a study of 73 bodies leads to the conclusion that 42% were skinned alive? How can a sample of 73 carcasses which were chosen based on the appearance of illegal sealing practices possibly be representative of the entire hunt?

If I look at 6 inmates on death row, and 3 of them have commited murder. Does that mean that 50% of the population has commited murder?

The size of a sample, and the way in which it was chosen makes a world of difference.

Also, I'm still waiting on that second difference between humans and other animals. Reason, and?...

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Oh I see where this is going now. It's just a polemic spin on my sentencing. I assumed that any possible ambiguity would have been resolved by the thoughts proceeding "humans are unique..."

To make a quick edit on my earlier argument here to keep everyone happy I'll change it to:

Humans are unique to other animals because we are rational agents whereas animals do not possess rationality although both humans and animals are capable of feeling pleasure and pain.


Watts, the Canadian Criminal Code first introduce animal cruelty in 1892 which has barely been revised since then. Although there might be an extreme case where an individual may be held criminally responsible for animal cruelty for the most part there simply aren't any laws that protect animals from cruelty and torture. Under Canadian law, animals are still treated merely as property and not as an individual. Many people, including myself think it's time for this to change.

And PLUG, I haven't said Canada lives in a state of nature or a lawless society. What I would say is that Canada needs to update its law concerning the ethical treatment of animals to help keep consistent with the view that Canada is -mostly and supposedly- a peace loving nation.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

Watts, the Canadian Criminal Code first introduce animal cruelty in 1892 which has barely been revised since then. Although there might be an extreme case where an individual may be held criminally responsible for animal cruelty for the most part there simply aren't any laws that protect animals from cruelty and torture. Under Canadian law, animals are still treated merely as property and not as an individual. Many people, including myself think it's time for this to change.

Legally speaking, "an individual" is usually taken to mean a person. Are you suggesting that animals should be treated as people?

Secondly, the Canadian Criminal Code aren't the only laws in Canada. What does provincial law say on the matter?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Quote:

Linking to a Canadian government website for the facts on seal culling is like telling me to read the Bush administration's official report on Sept 11. I think I prefer to get my information from a more trust worthy source.

Site from a state with responsible government and high amounts of accountability, or an unprofessional-looking site without any outside sources. To be honest, that's just offensive towards Canada.

By the way,the 9/11 commission was not a product of Bush's amdinistartion, it is a bipartisan matter.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Elendil

Actually, in this case, it does. This is one case where you would want to check your facts before posting; I had a suspicion you were wrong before I even did a 10 second search.






Source: Wikipedia

Perhaps I wasn't clear. My point was trying to illustrate that the percentages of known (inmates) or suspected (those observed using questionable hunting/skinning methods) is not a great way to extrapolate for the rest of the population.

What I was trying to say is that death row inmates are murderers yes. But you'd have to be a fool to believe that those numbers can apply to the *rest* of the population. Same thing sounds to have happened with the seal hunting story.

As for provincial law regarding animal rights, this was the first link that appeared as though it might be relevent. http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/S...sh/90o36_e.htm

So yeah, I doubt any province or territory really allows animals to be treated poorly on an owner's whim. And where is it again that animals are *not* considered property?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by loyalist

Site from a state with responsible government and high amounts of accountability, or an unprofessional-looking site without any outside sources. To be honest, that's just offensive towards Canada.

By the way,the 9/11 commission was not a product of Bush's amdinistartion, it is a bipartisan matter.

Looks like you beat me to it
I looked at the link that JackyBoy posted, not only does the site look like it was made by a web-design student, but if you read the disclaimer at the bottom, you can see that the false facts where put together by a group of activists that cannot see the truth any better than the McCartneys .

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Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

Legally speaking, "an individual" is usually taken to mean a person. Are you suggesting that animals should be treated as people?

Secondly, the Canadian Criminal Code aren't the only laws in Canada. What does provincial law say on the matter?

For your first question, I'll try to give the best answer I can that won't lead this to the ridiculous. Animals should be treated as people in same way as people are treated with dignity. The point is to remove the idea that animals are seen legally as property to be used and exploited by any means for human gain. Laws should protect wildlife from this. Also laws should be in place which can hold people criminally responsible for animal cruelty.

To answer your second question, from what I understand Provincial legislation would have nothing to say on the matter as animal cruelty falls under Federal legislation.

http://www.cfhs.ca/news/canadian_law/
This is a fairly extensive collection of news articles regarding Canada's recent history on the issue of animal cruelty put forth in Parliament. It looks as though not much progress has been made since I did my presentation on animals rights/cruelty.

It's interesting and no surprise that certain groups of people want to be exempt from any animal cruelty laws that may eventually get passed.

http://www.stopthesealhunt.ca/site/p...PFIqE&b=437937
Here's several recent short films shot by IFAW which document the seal hunt during 2004 and 2005. Footage from this year I think it says will be added soon. It's impossible for me to understand how anyone can support seal culling.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

http://www.stopthesealhunt.ca/site/p...PFIqE&b=437937
Here's several recent short films shot by IFAW which document the seal hunt during 2004 and 2005. Footage from this year I think it says will be added soon. It's impossible for me to understand how anyone can support seal culling.

Dear Lord. Crap like this is exactly why I have no respect for groups like PETA and the IFAW. Sappy music? Check. Making sealers out to be monsters? Check. Shots of frolicking whitecoats? Check. Little argument presented beyond "SEALS ARE CUTE SO HAY DON'T KILL THEM!!!1"? Check. Incidentally, it kills me that one of the video diaries has the protesters freaking out because sealers are "attacking" them. (Guys? You're wandering around in a dangerous environment doing everything you can to get in the way, harrass the sealers, and make them look like monsters. What do you expect, a fucking welcome wagon?)

So there's video footage. So what? Give me time and I can probably track down some footage of what goes on inside a slaughterhouse or fur farm. Yet somehow, animals spending their entire lives in a giant factory-farm assembly line to be caged, mutilated, fed grotesque amounts of growth hormones, and killed en masse behind closed doors... That gets played up as less horrific than wild animals killed in the open, mainly because some sanctimonious animal rights group or another can film it and single it out for shame among their target audience. Which seems to consist mainly of people who will scream about all the animal cruelty that us evil bloodthirsty Canadians are apparently perpetrating without thinking twice about where their hamburger comes from, let alone bothering to look at any other part of the sealing issue beyond "seals = cute". Blood on the ice once a year sells a cause better than blood on a slaughterhouse floor 24/7, I guess.

To paraphrase someone else: whack-a-seal for a few weeks once a year seems a far cry better than seals spending their whole lives caged, hormoned up, and miserable in factory farms.

Arg. I could ramble, but my friend summed it up better than I can anyway. *cuts and pastes from here*

Quote:

Anti-seal hunters make me angrier than almost anything, for several reasons:

1.) Animal rights groups have been caught several times paying poor locals to stage brutal seal clubbings on film. In reality, any such brutal practices were abandoned literally decades ago. What goes on on the ice floes now is no worse than what happens in any abbatoir anywhere in the world --- in fact, you could argue it is even more humane, the only difference is that happens in the open air, and not behind closed doors. But to the world, we're bloodthirsty butchers, thanks to those immoral and false smear campaigns. For example, the first website claims that 40% of seals are skinned alive, whereas a proper reputable scientific journal (the Canadian Vetrinary Journal) found that seals are killed properly and humanely 98% of the time. Animal rights groups continually use pictures of cute l'il whitecoats, even though the killing of whitecoats was outlawed 19 years ago.

2.) The seal hunters come from one of the most economically disadvantaged regions of North America, where unemployment is not only in double digits, but sometimes tops 50%, and where economic opportunities are practically nil, especially since the closure of the cod fishery 14 years ago. They have been hunting seals to help get them through the harsh winter for generations --- almost 200 years commercially, and sometimes more than 400 all told. The seal hunt is both an important tradition to this culture and an important means of economic survival.

3.) Seals are in no way endangered, and in fact their large numbers are not helpful to an ecosystem in danger. There are currently more than 6 million seals in the waters around Newfoundland alone. That's about 12 seals for every one person.

Because of both domestic and foreign overfishing for decades, the northern cod is just about extinct in those waters. The first website is right --- seals did NOT cause this collapse. Such claims are ludicrous. People caused it. However, the cod fishery was closed down in 1992 to allow the stocks to recover. In 14 years of zero fishing, no recovery has happened. As to why this is, everyone is stumped, but some Marine Biologists say that the overwhelming seal population (3 times what it was in the 1970s) is a likely factor in this.

4.) Animal rights groups organized a boycott of Canadian seafood products last summer in protest of the seal hunt. Many of the restaurants that signed on board served foie gras. The sheer hypocrisy and ignorance of so many people on the "OMG STOP THE SEALHUNT!!!" bandwagon gets my blood boiling. Protest against factory farms, protest against comestics testing on animals, protest to save animals whose survival as a species is in question. The seal hunt should be nowhere near the top of the list of priorities.

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Here's a proper, unbiased source that examines claims from both sides of the argument. http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sealhunt/

Good ol' CBC. I urge everyone to read the above and ignore the slanted propganada in the links from the first posts.


And from the Wiki (yes, I know, a less credible source) on the subject: The hunt has been alleged by some to be the largest commercial wildlife harvest in the world, however in fact, the Australian Kangaroo harvest easily eclipses any of the world's seal harvests, as its numbers range in the millions per year. Some lobbyists have continued to use images of seal pups in their fund-raising materials, though the harvesting of juvenile "white coats" has been banned since 1987

You don't see celebrities soliciting big cash donations to save the cute kangaroos, do you? *bitter, angry*

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It's not like I'm Seal Hitler calling for the extermination of the Seal Race, who have insiduously held down the Newfoundland people too long. Seals are mammals. It's natural for us to have empathy for them because of that. But if people are really concerned about threatened sea life, perhaps they should put aside that immediate emotional response and realize that fish are the ones in real trouble. We should be out protesting fishing fleets that use ridiculously small illegal mesh sizes in their nets, that vacuum clean international waters, that dump toxic fuel byproducts at sea with impugnity, and scoff at the slap on the wrist they might or might not be subject to for any of this. Those are the real butchers of the seal.

I maintain: what goes on in the seal hunt is no worse than what goes on in the meat industry at large --- except that the seals are free range and hormone and antibiotic free, so you can actually argue that in its favour. (and, yes, I think seal meat tastes rancid and vile, but I think the same of pig flesh, and I know people who enjoy seal very much).

If you're opposed to the killing of any animal, of course you'll be opposed to the seal hunt. But singling out the seal hunt as something extra special bad stinks, to me, of picking on the weakest kid in the school yard. Why get up in arms about something that employs more than 10,000 people (providing some of them with more than 1/3 of their annual income) in a place that, really, never got over the Great Depression? Why not warn people not to immigrate to Australia because of their kangaroo slaughters, or to boycott American products because of the widespread abuse of cows and chickens on factory farms?

Norway carries out an out-and-out cull of its seal herd each year; why isn't Norway also singled out for shame and reprimand?

And don't say the seal hunt isn't economically viable. The claim that it's bouyed up by the federal government is out and out false, and the price of a seal pelt at market has almost quintupled (that's right, quintupled) since the early 90's.

I was speaking idiomatically.

As always Amanda, you are my hero!

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Amanda

Dear Lord. Crap like this is exactly why I have no respect for groups like PETA and the IFAW. Sappy music? Check. Making sealers out to be monsters? Check. Shots of frolicking whitecoats? Check. Little argument presented beyond "SEALS ARE CUTE SO HAY DON'T KILL THEM!!!1"? Check. Incidentally, it kills me that one of the video diaries has the protesters freaking out because sealers are "attacking" them. (Guys? You're wandering around in a dangerous environment doing everything you can to get in the way, harrass the sealers, and make the look like monsters. What do you expect, a fucking welcome wagon?)

Amanda, to be fair to these organizations, the people who support animal rights and those opposed to seal culling their claim is pretty simple. Slaughtering 1 million seals is unethical and cruel. It's a form of genocide in my opinion. Images of cute baby seals are used because they are powerful and persuasive. Plus it just makes sense. You don't run a campaign for seals and then show images of giraffes.

You show people a picture of a cute baby seal "frolicking" and the next slide shows carcasses and blood smeared across the ice you tend to get more of a response. The reaction from most people is going to be something like, how can they (Canada) allow this? This important question is what get people talking and ultimately what starts these huge ethical debates. Without these debates society would never change and laws would never be revised. Hopefully everyone can at least agree that this would be a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Amanda

So there's video footage. So what? Give me time and I can probably track down some footage of what goes on inside a slaughterhouse or fur farm. Yet somehow, animals spending their entire lives in a giant factory-farm assembly line to be caged, mutilated, fed grotesque amounts of growth hormones, and killed en masse behind closed doors... That gets played up as less horrific than wild animals killed in the open where some sanctimonious animal rights group or another can film it and single it out for shame among their target audience. Which seems to consist mainly of people who will scream about all the animal cruelty that us evil bloodthirsty Canadians are apparently perpetrating without thinking twice about where their hamburger comes from, let alone bothering to look at any other part of the sealing issue beyond "seals = cute". Blood on the ice once a year sells a cause better than blood on a slaughterhouse floor 24/7, I guess.

I assure you I have very strong opinions and views in regards to the unethical treatment of animals raised for consumption. I think it's hideous that cattle farmers are allowed under Federal regulations to keep a cow shackled in cage and fed bio-engineered food up to the day of slaughter. It's also disgusting how Australia's poultry industry can house like 400,000 chickens inside a single shed under nightmarish conditions. The puppy mills in Quebec, across the country -trappers, fur farms, animal testing- all of it is highly unethical and all perfectly legal under Canadian law. Canada and Canadians need to wake up from their slumber. This cruel treatment and torture of animals needs to stop and people need to be held accountable for it.

The problem with the approach you're using is that it's unfair to undermine the argument against seal hunting by introducing a separate issue you deem more important. I am fully aware of the kangaroo cull your friend mentioned. 1 million seals killed over 3 years seems pretty small compared to the 7 million kangaroos killed each year in Australia. This however does not make seal culling suddenly acceptable. The "it-can-be-worse-program" has no place in ethical debates. Plus it's non-sensical to talk about the treatment of cows when we're arguing against the treatment of seals. You cannot assume these activist are ignoring such issues while only raising stink about the seals. Even so, there are plenty of other people who do campaign against the treatment of cattle raised for consumption. And you as a consumer can voice yourself by purchasing meat with that free range stamp.

Also people stop being so damn passive in your use of argumentation.

Quote:

false facts where put together by a group of activists that cannot see the truth

This is not an argument or a claim. This is rhetoric. It's empty. There's nothing for me to respond to. Using this kind of speech in attempt to weaken my position is completely unproductive. If you think I am wrong saying Canada needs to implement laws to protect animals from cruelty then at least make a claim I'm able to respond to.

The only decent arguments I have seen so far in support of seal culling is over population and that it happens to provide an income in a part of Canada where the opportunity of education is low and unemployment is high.

These arguments however are not are not compelling justifications. If the culling of a large populated species of animals becomes an acceptable maxim then this suggests humans should also be included because 6 million seals is incomparable to the 6 billion humans that occupy the globe. You provided information that suggests fish stocks have not been able to recover over some 15 years and that seals are seen as the culprit. I would argue that human interference such as pollution and over fishing has taken its toll on fish stocks. Perhaps Canadian waters are no longer providing a suitable environment for fish to reproduce. There are likely several factors to explain low fish stocks (seals may be one of those factors) but I think it's wrong to target seals because that happens to be the easiest, cheapest and conveniently most profitable short term solution.

The second argument basically comes down to whether or not it's right to exploit animals for human gain and profit. In my opinion it's not. It's the case that the people of NF need money to survive but at the cost of 1 million seals? It's wrong. Disney has exploited children all over the world to help it become such a huge successful business. It's wrong.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

Images of cute baby seals are used because they are powerful and persuasive. Plus it just makes sense.

Yeah, maybe if you're an idiot with a five second attention span.

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The reaction from most people is going to be something like, how can they (Canada) allow this?

It's called "livelihood." You should look into it sometime.

Quote:

This is not an argument or a claim. This is rhetoric. It's empty. There's nothing for me to respond to. Using this kind of speech in attempt to weaken my position is completely unproductive.

It also has an awesome side-effect. It shows that you're willing to completely disregard points that would otherwise actually have to make you think about your position, or Hell!, even admit that you might be wrong.

Quote:

The second argument basically comes down to whether or not it's right to exploit animals for human gain and profit. In my opinion it's not. It's the case that the people of NF need money to survive but at the cost of 1 million seals? It's wrong. Disney has exploited children all over the world to help it become such a huge successful business. It's wrong.

So, you think it's OK to essentially shit all over the livelihoods of people who seriously need whatever they can to survive?

Way to look like a jackass.

I find this entire argument fucking hilarious, because you have people who honestly don't give a rat's ass about the seals thinking they can argue against the seal hunters. I mean, do you honestly think that the McCartney's really care about the seals? It's a media stunt. They're bored. They have money to throw around.

They're doing it just to be noticed.

And the non-famous people? Most of them just blindly follow whatever the PETA et al say without any questioning of any potential problems they create by their actions. And the rest that aren't minions of PETA and such? They were lured in by their short attention spans and flashing images of CUTE BABY SEALS THAT ARE(not)HORRIBLY HUNTED.

Basically, this is a non-issue. It's nothing that really needs this kind of attention. Everything was going fine until some rich, pompous assholes decided to shit all over them.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

Also people stop being so damn passive in your use of argumentation.

Political debates turn into one side screaming at the other with their ears plugged quickly enough. No need to encourage the practice.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

There are likely several factors to explain low fish stocks (seals may be one of those factors) but I think it's wrong to target seals because that happens to be the easiest, cheapest and conveniently most profitable short term solution.

So the solution should not be easy, cheap, or profitable? What alternatives do you suggest?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Also keep in mind that the "human overfishing" you're talking about isn't actually done by Newfoundlanders. It's done by Europeans, thxsomuch.

(Sorry for my absence from the debate; I got sick, but mostly I got bored).

There's nowhere I can't reach.