You're a douche ass-hat!

Originally Posted by Leknaat

I never said it was over name-calling. I said it was over being picked on. This included physical contact like spitting. Ever been spit on? Not only is it disgusting, but it's meant to degrade a person's self-esteem.

I have. Not by classmates, though~

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Which didn't work because I knew that I would leave them behind. I would live my life as I wanted, where I wanted. I am nowhere near my hometown. In fact, I'm 2 states away.

So, when I say I have my revenge, I mean I didn't let what they said get to me.

PS: I couldn't do anything to anyone because my mom was the truant officer....

Physical fights aren't going to answer to anything these days, though. Skex is right - usually a throw down would work (in the old days), but its usually the weaker guys and gals who get picked on.

Depends on your maturity level, though. I mean, seriously. You see people calling others a fag, a dyke, a WHATEVER in school, you COULD stand up for them and risk being cast out yourself (have done). If you're the one being picked on, just ignore it - there's an entire "cast out" table in the cafeteria at lunch time. I am SURE a lot of folks here have been through this, since it's a huge community of huge NERDS. <3

But, I mean, if you're a little kid, why don't you tell your parents?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

And let's not forget that the boy in the article was 13. In some states, that's middle school/junior high. In others, it's elementary school, eighth grade, and you're king of the school.

He was a teen-ager. By the age of 13, most kids are out of the "Mom! Johnny's picking on me!" stage, and try to deal with things their own way.

And Devo's right.

"Your mom talked to my mom. I'm grounded because of you! You think it was bad before? It's going to be worse!"

For all we know, the kids could have threatened him.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Devoxycontin

I love how threads like this just turn into "suck it up" because really we're all e-badasses here on GFF.

What exactly do you want us to say? Generic denouncement of bullies? Sympathy for someone who commits suicide over something that's ultimately trivial?

Are we supposed to all parrot out your opinion or what?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Interrobang

What exactly do you want us to say? Generic denouncement of bullies? Sympathy for someone who commits suicide over something that's ultimately trivial?

Are we supposed to all parrot out your opinion or what?

I don't think it was ultimately trivial, or he wouldn't have committed suicide to deal with it. There's a reason he was affected by this, and I don't think "Different strokes for different folks" covers it.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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I'm wondering where this attitude comes from that everyone has to suck up being treated like shit. It's this type of attitude that pertetuates kids being general assholes to each other.

I'm not sure I see the connection. Ignoring insults suggests only apathy for the opinions of other people to me.

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I don't think it was ultimately trivial, or he wouldn't have committed suicide to deal with it. There's a reason he was affected by this, and I don't think "Different strokes for different folks" covers it.

I imagine it depends on what you think is trivial, I suppose. I don't consider insults and social ostracizing important enough to stake your life on, but I can see why somebody else would, I guess.

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I'm not sure what you're saying here. Does "sucking it up" lead to kids being assholes to each other or having breakdowns?

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I think they covered this case on E! about the horrors of the internet not two days ago. The kid had a huge number of different screen names. The parents thought he was fine because he always spent a lot of time on the internet. So when he comes home and then gets online, no big deal. They didn't know there was a problem until after they read his chat logs, after he died. I know parents nowadays aren't exactly the most aware species on the planet, but I think it's going over-board to expect them to regularly invade the privacy of their children to the point where they monitor their conversations?

The problem (not saying it was a big one) was that these people at school were spreading rumors to the rest of the school. It's not like he was taking shit from just a few people, and given the number of screen names he created, it's reasonable to assume he WAS trying to avoid the harassment.

Another aspect that wasn't covered in the article was that this kid was trying to get some from the girls at the school. One in particular led him on and then basically told him he was a worthless shit. So, you know, not only is he being called gay, but now no girl will talk to him. He just hit puberty. I can see how that would suck.

Of course, I'm not exactly defending him. Just throwing some more information out there for all the snide comments about how easily this kid could have fixed things or how terrible the parents were for not paying attention to their kid.

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Originally Posted by Capo

I think the "bullies" may have hit a little close to home.

Well that's to be considered as well, he may well have been gay and was confused or something about it.

... I'm sorta at an odd stance with this, on the one hand, he shouldn't have become an hero over some punk calling him a fag online, but on the other side, if there was a greater tolerance or acceptance of other sexual orientations, this probably would have never come up in the first place.

One clear factor that might have prevented this was parental supervision. A kid who just grew pubic hair and is cracking his voice does not know the finer nuances of internet trolling, nor would he probably realize (and this case IS different as it is also a problem for him IRL) that Trolls feed on pain, anger & all that.

Well, chalk this one up to Darwin I guess.

How ya doing, buddy?

Nobody kills themselves to escape bullying, whether at school or on the computer. This kid did not kill himself because some assholes he knew were calling him gay. There is undoubtedly much more going on with this kid, just like there was with the kids who shot up their schools.

I'm not saying that bullying doesn't make things worse, but anyone who kills his or herself, or someone else for that matter, is dealing with bigger problems.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by starslight

Nobody kills themselves to escape bullying, whether at school or on the computer. This kid did not kill himself because some assholes he knew were calling him gay. There is undoubtedly much more going on with this kid, just like there was with the kids who shot up their schools.

I'm not saying that bullying doesn't make things worse, but anyone who kills his or herself, or someone else for that matter, is dealing with bigger problems.

Junior high and high school seems like the world when you're at that age. You can try to make an argument that he should have been able to cope with it better (for whatever reason), but I don't think you can make the argument that it wasn't important to him, unless he was just grossly maladjusted to begin with.

Suicide is a way of dealing with situations in which people think there's no way out. If the only consistent locations in your life are home and school, and one of them is hostile, well...

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Right, if his school life was hostile (and following him home in the form of "cyberbullying"), then his home life (his parents) should have been there to help him cope with it. Or maybe he had some mental health problems that went untreated. Who knows?

My point was that he didn't kill himself solely because of bullying, as people who accuse him of "emoness" or whatever ridiculous shit are suggesting. No one who actually goes through with suicide does so because they got dumped or because someone made fun of them. This whole "kill yourself, emo kid" thing is a load of bullshit that gives people an excuse to trivialize suicide.

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Originally Posted by starslight

My point was that he didn't kill himself solely because of bullying, as people who accuse him of "emoness" or whatever ridiculous shit are suggesting. No one who actually goes through with suicide does so because they got dumped or because someone made fun of them.

I'd like to think that everyone can take things in their proper context, and never become emotionally distraught over relatively small stuff, but the point I was trying to make was that it's possible for people to crash when all the small stuff adds up to seem overwhelming.

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This whole "kill yourself, emo kid" thing is a load of bullshit that gives people an excuse to trivialize suicide.

Agreed, though.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Thats how I actually GOT a tough exterior/interior. I got picked on a lot in high school for not shopping trendy or whatever.

The point is: Suck it up. Kids are cruel. You'll never make it in life if you can't handle petty name-calling. If you're having a hard time coping, maybe you should talk to an adult or a guidance counsellor if it's getting to be too much that you can handle as a kid.

Additionally, once again, no one is monitoring these kids while they're online. I'm sure parents are in denial about THEIR kid being a big, bad cyber-bully.

Nuff said.

Most parents wouldn't even know their kids were cyberbullies and e-badasses.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Cyberbullying, huh? It seems as if the father is just looking for a way to blame the internet for this, perhaps due to past cyberbullying? Ah, the troublesome circle of cyberbullying.

I think that kid was pretty unstable, as were his parents. They must have noticed something was wrong. And furthermore, if this kid suffered bullying at school as well...what the fuck are the teachers doing. Granted, most teachers handle bullying well, but there's a select few who do nothing.

Bullying sucks (never happened/happens to me, though). I hope this kid's life story has given all of those people around him a bit of a "wake-up call". Yes, he seemed a bit unstable mentally but you can't really blame him for that i.e. you can't really blame him for his own death.

How ya doing, buddy?

I think the big issue is this: Children need to stop fucking bullying.


This archaic form of arrogance and childish-ness needs to end. These schools need to push up the 'Zero Tolerance' rule to almost nuclear-like levels. To let these kids that do bully think that they are BETTER than another kid is appalling. Quite frankly the "kids will be kids" line is old, and if kids are like that then, well it needs to stop at an early age immeadiately, before it becomes a problem.

I'm not advocating what this father is doing, my real point is all forms of bullying needs to end, and the school and the parents need to ride these children who bully and teach them "You're not more special than that kid over there" Put those children in their place is what I say, instead of shrugging it off as 'adolescant behavior'. It's those kinds of kids who push on the little people, that become powerful fatcats who control the little people, and keep pushing them around even when their adults.


I'm sorry i'm sounding like i'm ranting or whatever, but the bullying stuff in every grade of school is really just something that needs to die off. We need to teach kids how to be fuckin' humble and learn to be equal...not be fuckin' arrogant and shit.

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I like how so many of us, with our comfortable lives (and being older and more experienced this this 13 year old) forget so easily what it was like to be that age. How much smaller your world seemed and how some us being tormented by bullies felt that was all there was to life. Imagine finding an escape on the internet from all this drama and shit directed at you just to find the same harassment online. Can you imagine what it owuld feel like to think you have the entire world closing in on you?

And fuck you and your "keep your chin up" spin. People that get bullied either grow up to be meek and timid or they're fucking pissed off all the time and will flip out on a person from time to time. Can you imagine what it would be like to be always angry like a shark that can't sleep because he'll sink?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Leknaat

Remember Columbine? Those kids were picked on, and they had had enough--so they decided to take matters into their own hands.

But those two were already fucking crazy to begin with. They planned their massacre months ahead of time. Bullying was one of the factors that fueled their hate towards the world.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I know he couldn't dodge them on MySpace, but why didn't he just keep messenger names that his peers couldn't know? It seems like cyber-bullying wouldn't be very hard to avoid that way. Still, I feel sorry for the kid. Having to deal with that at school all day is bad enough without coming home to find the same people making your online life hell too.

Originally Posted by Karasu

This archaic form of arrogance and childish-ness needs to end. These schools need to push up the 'Zero Tolerance' rule to almost nuclear-like levels. To let these kids that do bully think that they are BETTER than another kid is appalling. Quite frankly the "kids will be kids" line is old, and if kids are like that then, well it needs to stop at an early age immeadiately, before it becomes a problem.

That's a great thought, but ridiculous in execution. When I was in 8th grade, my last year of middle school, our principal was fired and there was a power grab between the three assistant principals. They took the zero tolerance policy to the extreme. You could turn another student in for making a veiled threat, ie saying "I'm gonna kill you for that" out of frustration, and it was likely they'd get in-school suspension. It didn't even have to be that much. A little teasing that even the teased person didn't care about? Suspension if certain teachers overheard it.

The result wasn't any sort of drop in fighting and bullying, it was just an increase in people suspended. If anything, bullying increased. The phrase "zero tolerance" became a complete joke to both students and any of the teachers that payed attention, and that only caused more problems in high school when the principal saying "We have a zero tolerance for violence or the threat of violence," received nothing but laughter every morning. If anything, it caused more people who were usually compliant to scoff at the administration.

Parents are the real source, and unfortunately there's only so much the government can do about bad parenting. Even if most people raise good kids, they can still learn the bullying behavior from from the others.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I don't recall the article mentioning how long this bullying (cyber or in school) was going on, but it likely became something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. What the article doesn't mention is the language that was used by the bullies. It's one thing to be called a fag and that's that. It's another thing -- and this is something that 13 year olds don't truly understand yet -- to use the full power of words.

"Hey man, you're a fag and you should die." That's the kind of shit that'll make someone commit suicide. Hear that enough times, and kids going through that time in their lives will start to believe it. Also regarding the power of words and language, the Internet seems to be a far greater tool for retaining negative stimuli as opposed to the actual spoken word.

That old adage "get it in writing" applies nicely. To request something in writing means to have it permenantly engraved as fact. You write up a contract, those conditions are for all intents and purposes categorized into a "do it" or "don't do it" dichotomy. In the boy's case, having to see these words repeatedly (lest he closed the chat windows, but then they'd obviously just pop back up) reinforced what may have been written. In the most extreme case, which may very well be true, "fags should die" was probably the one recurring thought he could never banish.

Whether or not he was actually gay made little difference. It goes back to the self-fulfilling prophecy and the labeling theory. He was labeled as a fag for whatever reason, and after enough repetition from his classmates he began to believe it. Step one. His classmates, ignorant to how strong their words can be to someone who's insecure and already broken in, continually hound him with "fags should die" or something akin to that. Step two. The last step is simple and sequential -- he was labeled, reinforced, self-fulfilled and executed. The fag died.

As for what should be done? What can be done, really? When Jack Thompson hears about this, he'll be all over Rockstar's Bully saying that it caused the behavior of these children and made poor Ryan Halligan kill himself.

The article is correct about a couple things, namely the topic about norms. You can't really legislate these kinds of norms -- norms of politeness, courtesy, and nonjudgment. You certainly can't legislate them over the anonymous sector known as the Internet.

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The Internet allows students to insult others in relative anonymity, and experts who study cyberbullying say it can be more damaging to whimpering little pussies than traditional bullying like fist fights and classroom taunts.

Fixed.

Bullshit. If some guy punches me in the face at school, I'm gonna feel a hell of a lot worse than if some dude calls me a "faggit lolz" on MySpace. It would be more accurate if it simply said depressed emo teenagers shouldn't kill themselves because they can't deal with being made fun of.

Edit: Also, for anyone who uses the defense "they wouldn't leave him alone" or something to that effect, that's also bullshit. Any kid who spends enough time on the internet that he kills himself due to the sheer amount of times he's been called a fag, sure as hell has a grasp on common technology and can close a window and block a contact here and there.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by starslight

Nobody kills themselves to escape bullying, whether at school or on the computer.

Really? How about a few examples?

http://www.bullyonline.org/schoolbully/cases.htm

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...28/ai_17382263

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I don't get it, Shiny. Do you think that just because you can close a chat window you can end all insults coming at you on a daily routine?

In fact, it seems kinda backwards to say that. I'm calling bullshit to your argument entirely. For one, physical pain can be overcome. No big deal, right? Get a black eye? Just wait a few days and it'll be good as new. Broke a leg? S'cool, just get a cast and you'll be fine.

What seems to be misunderstood is the whole "fag" issue. Regardless of what the bullies called him, the kid was still being hit multiple times on a near-daily basis with negative reinforcement. If you go in to school and everyday someone punches you in the arm, you'll eventually not feel it anymore. Doesn't work the same way with verbal insults, at least not for all teenagers. Some have emotional wells that run infinitely deep, but hear this -- they're in the minority.

I don't know how well this example'll work, but here goes. When I was 13, which was 11 years ago, my parents divorced and my mom and I moved from the north part of the U.S. to the southern part. I started 6th grade in a brand new part of the nation (to me) with brand new people in an environment I was wholly unfamiliar with.

For me, 6th sucked ass. I was constantly hounded about being from the North, so much so that the mere location of my birth became an object for insulting me and it wasn't very fun. Granted, I didn't threaten to nor kill myself, but still the fact remains that for no other reason besides my place of birth, I was made fun of immensely. To the same degree, I think they were jealous because I still had all my teeth intact, and still do. Ftw.

Times have changed dramatically. Boys, especially teenage ones, don't have the same size emotional well as teenage boys did back in the 70s or 80s, or hell even early 90s. Whether or not this kid was in fact homosexual is not the issue -- reinforcing a negative stereotype on someone is damaging.

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Originally Posted by SouthJag

I don't get it, Shiny. Do you think that just because you can close a chat window you can end all insults coming at you on a daily routine?

Okay, let me try to make my point a little clearer. From what I read of the article, the kid killed himself because bullies from school were calling him names on the internet. So, he was called names on the internet as well as at school. Next...

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In fact, it seems kinda backwards to say that. I'm calling bullshit to your argument entirely. For one, physical pain can be overcome. No big deal, right? Get a black eye? Just wait a few days and it'll be good as new. Broke a leg? S'cool, just get a cast and you'll be fine.

Touche. However: Have you ever broken your leg? It's less of a "Throw a cast on the bitch and it'll be fine" and more of a "Holy fuck my bone just cracked this is the worst pain of my life". Also, emotional pain can be overcome as well. Maybe not as quickly or as healthily as physical pain, but I know that there are some things in my life I thought I'd never get over and I did. It may have taken a couple of years but depression is something that can be worked out of, if you've got the willpower and strength to pick yourself up and move on. This kid obviously did not posses that willpower.

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What seems to be misunderstood is the whole "fag" issue. Regardless of what the bullies called him, the kid was still being hit multiple times on a near-daily basis with negative reinforcement. If you go in to school and everyday someone punches you in the arm, you'll eventually not feel it anymore. Doesn't work the same way with verbal insults, at least not for all teenagers. Some have emotional wells that run infinitely deep, but hear this -- they're in the minority.

I realize that everyone is different and we all have our own tolerance levels to certain things, but please don't try to seriously back a kid who killed himself because people were making fun of him. He obviously needed help and wasn't getting enough attention. It's obvious this "e-bullying" was going on for some time, unless somebody wants to tell me next that he killed himself after a week, which at this point wouldn't entirely surprise me.

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I don't know how well this example'll work, but here goes. When I was 13, which was 11 years ago, my parents divorced and my mom and I moved from the north part of the U.S. to the southern part. I started 6th grade in a brand new part of the nation (to me) with brand new people in an environment I was wholly unfamiliar with.

For me, 6th sucked ass. I was constantly hounded about being from the North, so much so that the mere location of my birth became an object for insulting me and it wasn't very fun. Granted, I didn't threaten to nor kill myself, but still the fact remains that for no other reason besides my place of birth, I was made fun of immensely. To the same degree, I think they were jealous because I still had all my teeth intact, and still do. Ftw.

Well it seems like you and I have been through much of the same. There's a town slightly smaller than the one I live in, about 9 miles south of here called Mendocino. I went to the same district of schools my entire life, Fort Bragg Unified. Born and raised here. The kids from Fort Bragg and the kids from Mendo don't particularly like each other, and while it's not quite the same as dealing with it at school every day, living that close can change that quickly. It was not uncommon in grade school to be walking down the street and be called a "Fort Fag" and have something thrown at you, be flipped the bird, or, in the absolute worst of situations, get a full on shot of somebody's ass hanging out the window. And yes we'd get irritated, and yes, our feelings would be hurt; but we would not kill ourselves over it.

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Times have changed dramatically. Boys, especially teenage ones, don't have the same size emotional well as teenage boys did back in the 70s or 80s, or hell even early 90s. Whether or not this kid was in fact homosexual is not the issue -- reinforcing a negative stereotype on someone is damaging.

The point I'm trying to make is, no matter which way you slice it, bottom line is this kid killed himself because he was being bullied. Whether he was being bullied a little or a lot is irrelevant. Being bullied is a big part of growing up and so is learning to deal with it. Apparently some people just weren't equipped to handle it.


Anyways, it's 3:30AM and I am extremely tired. I hope I got my point across without sounding like too much of a douchebag.

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Hasn't anyone here ever heard of the phrase "mental cruelty?"

In divorce filings, mental as well as physical cruelty can be listed as reasons for divorce--since it's a form of abuse.

If this happened to a woman and she killed herself because she wanted to end the pain of the abuse her husband was causing her, we'd say--"She should have killed him. It would have been justified."

Sorry, folks, when you suffer repeated mental abuse, your self-esteem goes out the window and you do the only thing that makes sense to you. To end the pain, you remove the source--yourself.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by SouthJag

In fact, it seems kinda backwards to say that. I'm calling bullshit to your argument entirely. For one, physical pain can be overcome. No big deal, right? Get a black eye? Just wait a few days and it'll be good as new. Broke a leg? S'cool, just get a cast and you'll be fine.

Just because I also found the "cyberbullying worse than physical bullying" part to be hilarious, I have to disagree with this. Just because it's physical, that doesn't mean that there's no psychological damage. If it hurts and was done ON PURPOSE, there's likely going to be a fear of it happening again. Even abused dogs who go to better homes may still cower in fear if someone just raises a hand, it's not something that's easily forgotten.

I don't happen to find one or the other to be worse (though I probably lean more towards physical since, y'know, people can be killed and stuff). Bullying freaking sucks, and if they can't control the physical/verbal bullying, I highly doubt they'll be able to control this cyberbullying.

The main problem here is that the kid did not know how to deal, nor could he find a method to escape, which shouldn't be that hard to do on the internet IMHO. It's a pity, but what can one do if the kid wouldn't talk about it? And I do agree that that's the age where (most) kids don't want to bring up this stuff with adults. Eh, it could be a number of reasons.

It should be a part of growing up and learning how to deal with the world, but it doesn't work out that way with everyone. It's sad for those of us who made it past that and onto better things because we know there are better ways to handle it. It's really frustrating to hear when someone else can't.

This is definitely something that the parents should take more interest in for their children's sake, and talk to their kids about it. Like they do about drugs and sex. As if bullying ONLY happens at school. Pfft. I really don't think it's the school's fault.

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