The Immigration Protests

Cloture passed, Finnancial portion waivered, so the bill is well into being passed by the Senate.

We'll see what happens at the House.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

The point here is that offering amnesty without first securing the border is only going to make the problem worse as people from Mexico are going to rush across the border to take advantage of what's happening. 6,000 troops and an additional 400 miles of fence isn't nearly enough to lock down the border sufficiently.

Not Gonna happen. Anyone that can't prove they haven't been in the country since January 2006 are excluded from this bill. This is a very clear part of it.

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I'm not an extremist on this, but I am a realist.

I think everyone considers themselves to be realistis at everything, man.

FELIPE NO

The only reason I can think that people are so adamently opposed to free-border policies is that it would provide competition for the established majority, in our case it's Protestant Caucasians. I.e. I'm calling these people irrationally xenophobic.

They simply mask their irrationality behind law. They justify their misplaced aggression, and people go along with it.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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Not Gonna happen. Anyone that can't prove they haven't been in the country since January 2006 are excluded from this bill. This is a very clear part of it.

A very similar provision was included in the 1986 amnesty. Look at how well that worked.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Photographs taken at Disneyworld.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

A very similar provision was included in the 1986 amnesty. Look at how well that worked.

It's been 20 years. Also, the burden of proof was left on the employer, which makes no sense since the employer WANTS the low-wage illegal immigrants.

Also, it will be far less cumbersome for people to come here now.

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Originally Posted by Devo

Considering most illegals make it a habit of hiding their illegal status, how will ones who have been here that long prove it? Receipts? Witness testimony?

Pay stubs is what they have in mind. Also, as I understand it, only the head of the family needs to prove they've been in a steady job for however long, and the rest of the family can get the green crad (it may become "orange card" because of this bill).

How ya doing, buddy?

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Also, it will be far less cumbersome for people to come here now.

Which only exacerbates the fucking problem, what the fuck?

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Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Which only exacerbates the fucking problem, what the fuck?

I thought the non-extremists weren't against legal immigration?

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It's not the legality that he has a problem with, it is that the law is on his side: The law makes it very fucking hard for immigrants of any kind to come to the US. He likes that. Guess why?

Also, America is with as good an economy as it has ever had. Dow Jones was like close to 12,000 the other day. That's crazy! The all-time high! To say that these immigrants have seriously hurt this economy is something that is hard to prove.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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The law makes it very fucking hard for immigrants of any kind to come to the US. He likes that. Guess why?

No need to guess, I'll tell you: The flow of immigration, regardless of country of orgin, needs to be strictly controlled so that it is easier to assimilate immigrants into American culture. Unrestricted immigration, which the pro-illegal immigration lobby wants, doesn't encourage assimilation. In fact, it discourages it.

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To say that these immigrants have seriously hurt this economy is something that is hard to prove.

And yet, you liberals will be the first to demand that corporations raise wages, or if they refuse to because of sound business reasons, get the government to use the force of arms to make them do so.

The entire reason why illegals come here to this country is to find work; the only reason they find work is because their illegal status compells them to work for far cheaper wages than any American would accept.

FELIPE NO

Not many illegals work under the table. The 1986 Immigration Legislation puts the burden of immigration control on the employers. So, employers are only allowed to hire people with social security cards.

A fake social security card costs $50 here in Boston. Most of my friends who are illegal immigrants have them. Since employers WANT illegal immigrants (they are very hard working, they do jobs Americans don't), no one ever checks the Social Security cards.

On the end, illegals can't file their taxes because of their fake numbers, and end up overpaying their taxes for not getting returns.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

No need to guess, I'll tell you: The flow of immigration, regardless of country of orgin, needs to be strictly controlled so that it is easier to assimilate immigrants into American culture. Unrestricted immigration, which the pro-illegal immigration lobby wants, doesn't encourage assimilation. In fact, it discourages it.

I was going for the clarity with which you dislike immigrants, illegal or otherwise.

But, whatever man.

Double Post:
By the way, S. 2611 (Comprehensive Immigration Reform Bill) passed the Senate today with 62-36 votes.

Hooray.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by gukarma

Not many illegals work under the table.

I still don't buy this argument. In my country it is well known, and admitted that illegal immigrants work under the table. I find it hard to imagine that it's very different in the US. Your anecdotal evidence based on your friends' situation notwithstanding.

Night Phoenix, so would you preffer that immigration quotas remain as they have been, be reduced, or increased? I mean, what is the limit which should be placed on it? And is 'assimilation' all that important? Why? Not looking for a fight, just curious.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Because of the nature of the data there's no studies to show one way or another. However, from having spent a good part of my life around immigrant circles (and a great part of this circle is composed of illegal immigrants), I can safely say that at least in Boston the great majority of immigrants work with illegal Social Security cards.

For quite some time (2001-2004) people could pay a person in the Social Security office in Chicago a big sum (something like $5k) to have a REAL SSN assigned to them. This was worthwhile, though, because it gave people a shot at getting a legal driver's license, one of the biggest problems that Illegal immigrants face in the US.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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I was going for the clarity with which you dislike immigrants, illegal or otherwise.

I don't dislike immigrants, that's the thing. My girlfriend's family immigrated here from South Korea and most of them still speak more Korean than they do English.

Of course, I realize that sounds like a bigoted white person screaming "I'm not racist, I have two black friends!" but the fact remains - I don't have a dislike for immigrants because they're from another country. I do, however, have a dislike of people who come to this country with no intention of assimilating or learning the language. That's why I believe the flow must be strictly controlled - no more than maybe 100,000 a year total.

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong here, but that's just the way I look at it. To me, the entire point of immigration is to welcome new people to the country to be Americans. A lot of these people coming here illegally don't want to be American; they want to be Mexicans who reap the benefits of American money. This is why you saw so many during those initital protests waving Mexican flags, chanting about how the land from Texas to California truly belonged to them (it was 'stolen' from them, so to speak). These people, in my view, don't want to join and contribute to American society: they want to fragment it. These aren't the kind of people you want as citizens.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

But, didn't like, everyone come to America pretty much for the sole reason of reaping the benifits/leaving the poorer conditions of their country? I imagine that immigrants for the most part will be asimilated in the coming generations, without the original immigrants having to even make that effort. Their kids will be more Americanized, and their grand children will likely be the same as everyone else.

I'm still very curious as to why the asimilation is important though. If they are working and contributing etc. then what difference does it make if they speak a different language, or retain different cultural manerisms/habbits?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Because the point is to integrate them as part of a greater whole. Yes, in America we value the individual, but at the same time, there must be some kind of unifying element - it's what makes a country a country.

In most countries that is a common language (which in America, would be English) and a common culture. These illegals flooding over the border share neither with the rest of the population, creating division.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Because the point is to integrate them as part of a greater whole.

You're assuming that every immigrant or person that comes here is going to stay here. Or even wants to stay here.

If you think that they're only here to send money back to their families they'll leave the moment economic conditions are not favorable. Nor do they probably want to be seperated from their families.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Yes, in America we value the individual, but at the same time, there must be some kind of unifying element - it's what makes a country a country.

There is. Everyone that has come here has wanted a better life for themselves. They were fleeing persecution, famines, or just looking for a new start. Americans have been endowed with a sense of idealistic optimism. If that's not a unifying force, then I don't know what is.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

In most countries that is a common language (which in America, would be English) and a common culture. These illegals flooding over the border share neither with the rest of the population, creating division.

Only a xenophobe would care about such 'barriers' as language or culture. We're supposively a melting pot remember? Diversity is a strength, not a weakness.

Ever been to New York? Know how many languages are spoken on the streets? Does that make it any more likely that New York City is going to fragment on ethnic lines like Yugoslavia? I doubt it. It's diversity is one of it's many alluring factors. Least' that's what I think given New York was chosen as the HQ of the United Nations, and is foremost in it's supremacy as a center for international finance.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

How exactly are open borders supposed to make the U.S. more secure?

Originally Posted by Watts

Diversity is a strength, not a weakness.

Since when were flowery slogans part of debate?

I don't see any problem with requiring immigrants to learn the language of the country they're immigrating to. English has been the de facto official language of the States since it was established, with English today being spoken as a first language by some 225 + million residents. And having an official language is important because it encourages national unity. When you have two official languages, or one side refusing to speak the dominant language, it fosters this "us vs. them" mentality that splits nations apart. Since the very word nation implies cohesion, it's in the best interests of the nation and everyone involved that immigrants be required to learn the language of the country they're entering.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by lordjames

How exactly are open borders supposed to make the U.S. more secure?

How is closing the bordors going to make America more secure? We have hundreds of miles of unwatched, unfenced, and unmilitarized coastline. Does it take a genius to figure out that security and illegal immigration have nothing in common given that small fact everyone is ignoring? Stopping one will not stop the other.

Oh well. At least politicians aren't half as dumb as both sides of the issue apparently are. Even though they're required to pander to both. I'm looking forward to having illegals working on ethanol plantations. It's almost as good as slavery. Almost.

Hey, that wall isn't being built just to keep people out. It could be used to keep people in too.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I don't think your question answered mine, but I'll be glad to indulge the rest of your post, since you refuse to debate with me honestly.

The security problem isn't illegal immigration, obviously, but it's a symptom of the more important problem. Illegal immigration happens because the borders are porous, and porous borders is a security problem because we have no way of knowing who is entering the country. And although it's impossible to expect to catch every single illegal entering the country, it's hard to justify an illegal population of around 22 million people without thinking some changes are needed.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by lordjames

I don't think your question answered mine, but I'll be glad to indulge the rest of your post, since you refuse to debate with me honestly.

I am debating with you, you just don't like my conclusions.

Originally Posted by lordjames

because we have no way of knowing who is entering the country.

And the same is not true of our coastline? You're still ignoring the elephant in the living room.

Don't let me stop you from being paranoid though. This sort of irrational fear is what make's people that think like you easily manipulated.

Originally Posted by lordjames

Although it's impossible to expect to catch every single illegal entering the country, it's hard to justify an illegal population of around 22 million people without thinking some changes are needed.

I can and have justified it easily. Ethanol plantations. It's the oil alternative answer to our energy problems, and if we use illegal immigrants on the production of said ethanol then part of the savings will get passed on to you; the customer. All is well.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Coastal patrol is important, but it isn't the cause of the 22 million illegal Mexican immigrants living in the country. This is, as the news reports say, attributable to porous borders, and it wouldn't be out of line to suggest something should be done to correct it.

As far people like me being paranoid, something like this, illegal immigration, could probably be more justifiable in a pre-911 world than today. But considering the security risks the U.S. faces today, open borders are simply not an option.

Now, about ethanol production, even without examining your premises, your argument is still very short-sighted. Despite what ever benefits we might derive from illegal immigration in the field of ethanol, which, by the way, can just as easily be gained through a legal guest worker program, it's largely offset by the risk of a terrorist entering through the southern border, and possibly blowing up either an important building, population zone, major city, etc.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by lordjames

Coastal patrol is important, but it isn't the cause of the 22 million illegal Mexican immigrants living in the country. This is, as the news reports say, attributable to porous borders.

The news media is all-knowning and always right eh?

Desperate people will go to any possible lengths to get what they want. Some of the border areas they cross are lethal for a great percentage of them, yet they attempt it again and again. I wouldn't rule out any act of desperation at this point. Especially if we're going to make it harder for them.

(We're not talking about the cause but the means)

Originally Posted by lordjames

As far people like me being paranoid, something like this, illegal immigration, could probably be more justifiable in a pre-911 world than today.

Not much has changed since 9/11 pal. The world had terrorist acts before 9/11. Even the US. Timothy Mcveigh was an American. You can't even blame foreigners with that example. We were concerned about it then, we're concerned about it now. Being paranoid really isn't helpful though. Should we seal off all our state borders in the name of security? To protect ourselves?

Maybe we should just be paranoid about people we don't know. Oops too late! Really, where is this all going?

Originally Posted by lordjames

But considering the security risks the U.S. faces today, open borders are simply not an option.

This issue was raised to prominance on the grassroots level. The Senate/House would have quietly debated this and passed one version or mix of both. The Republican and Democratic Parties haven't been thrashing and screaming that loudly about immigration security issues. Neither has President Bush. Until they had to appease their respective bases for the coming elections. This appears to be solely an immigration issue on the political level.

Furthermore I can only assume they have access to more information then you or I about sensitive matters of National Security. Which is not that big stretch of the imagination.

Originally Posted by lordjames

Despite what ever benefits we might derive from illegal immigration in the field of ethanol, which, by the way, can just as easily be gained through a legal guest worker program,

The difference in benefits of a legal program and maintaining the status quo is considerable. It's still a different way to make everybody marginally happy. Since I doubt anyone is going to be completely satisfied.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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Only a xenophobe would care about such 'barriers' as language or culture. We're supposively a melting pot remember? Diversity is a strength, not a weakness.

So I'm a xenophobe because I expect to be able to communicate with my countrymen, what the fuck?

Don't you give me that diversity bullshit. These people have no intention of integrating with American society or culture. They don't want to learn the language, they don't want to assimilate into our culture. A melting pot is useless when one of the ingredients doesn't want to mix with the others.

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How is closing the bordors going to make America more secure? We have hundreds of miles of unwatched, unfenced, and unmilitarized coastline. Does it take a genius to figure out that security and illegal immigration have nothing in common given that small fact everyone is ignoring? Stopping one will not stop the other.

This is a retarded argument. Are you saying that because a vulnerability exists on the coastline of the United States that we should not secure the border? That's stupid as hell.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Don't you give me that diversity bullshit.

"Yeah, fuck diversity! We can only have complete uniformity to be Americans."

That kinda message is what make's you a xenophobe. At the very least it make's you sound like one.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

These people have no intention of integrating with American society or culture. They don't want to learn the language, they don't want to assimilate into our culture. A melting pot is useless when one of the ingredients doesn't want to mix with the others.

They don't necessarily want to stay here either.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

This is a retarded argument. Are you saying that because a vulnerability exists on the coastline of the United States that we should not secure the border? That's stupid as hell.

I'm asking what good it'll do if a bunch of desperate immigrants really want to make it into the country, and will go to any lengths to get in. Why bother stretching the National Guard even thinner when the overall situation won't change any? Maybe you don't care about the troops but I do!

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Watts, I disagree with you in regards to your statement that the situation cannot be changed, regardless of any actions taken to improve border security. If one were to employ unmanned planes to patrol the borders and then have national guard strike units that respond to anything detected by them, this would allow for a more secure border, without overly thining out the national guard as it could then be reserved only as a responsive measure, while the actual border would be one maintained by a strong presence of reconnaissance units, requiring far less personel to maintain.

In addition to this, as it has been mentioned how desperately people from south of the border wish to come to this country, I think cracking down more on employers for hiring illegals would also help in that it would undermine much of the incentive for crossing the border to begin with. When combined with a much more solid border patrol as detailed above, the willingness of people to enter the United States illegally would go way down, since not only would it be much harder, but the benefits of successfully entering would also be greatly diminished. While one or the other of these measures by themselves may not get the job done, I think the combination would be effective in stemming the tide of illegal immigration.

FELIPE NO