[] Gym Battlers Open

Originally Posted by Kairyu

Only question I have is, and assuming it is an ongoing thing. Do we let anyone go at it?

Glad you like the idea. Basically, I wasn't implying for it to be an ongoing thing, but it could be. Basically I was going to suggest opening 'registrations' similar to how you did this tournament, that way there would actually be an end. XD But then...

Originally Posted by Kairyu

Or will there some requirements before they can pursue the Champion title? Like collecting badges across the forums or having a certain amount of victories. Now that I think about it. It almost sounds like an RP'ing idea than a tournament.

I kind of like this idea too, but that means everyone in the current tourny would have to battle the challengers as well, for badges. I don't know, I kind of like the idea, but it seems a little complicated.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I was chatting to Sane Brain over the gym leader idea a little while ago. The idea is sound but it would take a lot of work and more participates for it to get started. And the way things look at the moment we would be lucky to get 8 players involved. Personally, I don't think it will work.

So, unless Crash and Josiah backs out of the Elite 4 idea I wouldn't mind at least setting that up (not the Gym leader part!)

How ya doing, buddy?

I'll give it some thought, but right now the bed beckons for early morning work. I'll catch you on AIM about it sometime, Kai.

FELIPE NO

The Elite 4 idea is okay, I don't have any problems with it. I don't want to drag things on forever, though.

I had an idea for a different sort of tournament: Pokemon Draft

The concept works like so:

Sign-ups are posted for, say, a week. Once the sign-ups close, each participant receives a randomized number. This represents their place in the "draft."

When the draft begins, the person with the lowest number selects first. He or she may choose any three Pokemon that are not banned from play. These Pokemon have been "drafted" and may not be selected by any other participant.
The second person then makes his/her selection of three, and those Pokemon are removed from the list also.

This process moves on down the line until the person with the highest number goes. In this case, that person gets to choose six Pokemon at once. His choices may not be ideal but he is given the benefit of selecting an entire team at once.

The person with the second highest number then chooses another three Pokemon. And so forth, until each participant has had two rounds in which to choose his/her team. The advantage of a low number grants a player the opportunity to select stronger Pokemon. The advantage of higher numbers is the ability to perhaps create the more cohesive team.

Once each person has selected their team, it goes to a normal bracket. All participants battle each other once, in a Three-Match set. The first game shall be 6 vs.6, and the remaining two shall be 3 vs. 3.
If participants are agreeable, Sane Brain may calculate and maintain the scoring should he wish. He has the zeal, and as long as people understand the modifiers he uses, I see no problems.
Once all players have battled each other, the winner shall be the person with the highest win percentage. In the case of ties, each player's KO'd Pokemon will serve as the tiebreaking statistic.


The concept of a draft may intimidate some, since there's the chance your favorites may be claimed early in the proceedings. That's an unfortunate reality but there's still a lot of useful Pokemon to work with. Consider that we had only 9 active participants in this past tournament. If we have approximately the same number (10), then once all is said and chosen, only 60 different Pokemon will be used. That represents most of the Overused and Borderline tiers - so you'll get something decent for certain. Even at a dozen participants, there's still a lot of room to work in.

Thoughts? Endorsements? Criticisms?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Crash, I like that idea for selection. And the idea to shorten matches from five battles to three. Sorry Kairyu, but some matches in this tournament just took too long. xD

The other thing is though, do we want to open another tournament right away, or should we wait a while [a week or two?] first?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

@ Crash:
Ohh, drafting was a format I've been wanting to try but one thing kept bothering me. Wouldn't the person choosing afterwards know what the first guy grabbed? I would think so if the point of the selection is to make sure everyone uses different Pokemon. Therefor everyone would effectively choose counter types.

Now, this isn't exactly a bad thing since the cycle continues all the way back to the person that made the first selection. But if there is a way to mask selections and yet still allow for everyone to choose a unique team then I'd say we're ready to try this out =D.


@ Sousuke:
Yeah, was thinking the whole 'best of 5' idea might have been a bit draining for some. I know it was for me on the final 3 battles or so. But I did that to get more accurate point totals and to reduce the chance of subsequent tie ups.

As for your question to when we should start another tournament or sign up thread. I'd like to give everyone one week to relax, debrief, announce some opinions (if any) and collect some new ideas. Like what we're doing now.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Kairyu

Like what we're doing now.

Heh, yeah. I realized that after I posted.

I like the idea though, and I think I'd definitely be 'in'.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Kairyu

@ Crash:
Ohh, drafting was a format I've been wanting to try but one thing kept bothering me. Wouldn't the person choosing afterwards know what the first guy grabbed? I would think so if the point of the selection is to make sure everyone uses different Pokemon. Therefor everyone would effectively choose counter types.

Now, this isn't exactly a bad thing since the cycle continues all the way back to the person that made the first selection. But if there is a way to mask selections and yet still allow for everyone to choose a unique team then I'd say we're ready to try this out =D.

I'm not sure that there's a convenient method of drafting that doesn't involve knowing what was taken before you. It does seem like crucial information just for the sake of preventing the draft process from taking forever and a day. Imagine being the last to draft and having absolutely no clue what was chosen. How frustrating could that become? How long would it take for that person to find six decent Pokemon that weren't claimed?

I see the draft as a battle itself. You enter with a strategy, then amend that strategy as others make their moves. If people are drafting high on Dragons, then maybe selecting something with Ice Beam becomes a higher priority. Drafting to counter isn't necessarily a poor strategy but it may also result in a less cohesive team. Conversely, you might have a sneaky plan and not particularly care about a plentitude of Dragons. That person's priority is filling roles on the team. There's no one proven draft method.

But for the sake of logistic simplicity, I think a visible draft would be preferable. Everyone would know what each other participant chose, so the advantages would cancel out.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Hey, sup? I'm back, still need to read everything that went on, but I'll post my input on everything later.

For now, my team:

Chaotic's Team:

Sharpedo (Fang) - The speedy, water bastard of my team. I caught him moments before the tournament thinking he wasn't going to be all that useful, little did I know, he would be one of the best sweepers on my team.

Weavile (Katana) - The speed demon of my team. Although his move set was slightly limited, I still did a number on some people with him.

Honchkrow (Chief) - Chief was pretty useful throughout the tournament as well for me. Sucker Punch saved me from being attacked first several times and Drill Peck did a number on people as well.

Shiftry (Chronos) - YOU WON'T SEE HIM COMING, BUT YOU'LL FEEL THE EXPLOSION.

Umbreon (Dirge) - Crash's Umbreon I got in a trade a couple of tournaments ago. Although I didn't use him as much as I should have, he saved me a couple times from being obliterated and resulted in earning me a draw as well.

Tyranitar (Rocky) - I was hoping to use him more, but it seemed like everyone had a fighting attack to stop him.

Houndoom (Apocalypse) - Useful at times, and did his job. Didn't use him as much as I had wanted to.

Mightyena (Gangrel) - A personal favorite Pokemon of mine turned out to be useful in a couple of situations.

Absol (Reaper) - Didn't use him as much as I expected to, nor did I actually expect to use him much anyway. He did his job.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Well Draft I like your idea because it totally comprimises people from building specific planned teams, and I'm definately with you on the visible draft, I mean, it would make things more simple, and who couldn't figure out how to plan anyway once they saw what they couldn't pick? Of course if the random draft were to work, it would be alot harder to do the 'gym theme' so I guess that would have to go because people wouldn't be able to pick the hybrid that they originally wanted.

As for the 6 vs 3 teams, maybe just make it 2 v 2 if someone wants a 6 v 6, and 1 v 1
on 3v3s. that way things would go much faster with combined team attacks.

I would definately be interested in playing the next tournament.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

So, if I'm getting this right, Crash is basically proposing a round robin tournament, similar to the last tournament, only this time everybody drafts their Pokemon and faces each other three times instead of five?

I really like your system, Crash. I’ve tried to conceptualize something fairer, but I haven’t been able to. I think having a visible draft would make people think more, and have real strategy, much more so than a hidden one. The only way I can think of making a hidden draft work would be having someone who is neutral (like me) being the system of information. Everybody would privately contact me, probably through PM, to tell me their selections. However, as you could imagine this would definitely become cumbersome after awhile, and would take way too much time in the end.

One thing I’m wondering about is how much time we should give processes to occur. We first have to get people enlisted, which will probably be a week or two. Then there has to be the draft itself, but what happens if someone becomes inactive in the process of drafting? Should we wait until they become active again? Maybe we should go through time limits to how much time you are given to draft your Pokemon once it is your turn. We may need to also have a deadline for battles to occur after the drafting process.

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

If participants are agreeable, Sane Brain may calculate and maintain the scoring should he wish. He has the zeal, and as long as people understand the modifiers he uses, I see no problems.
Once all players have battled each other, the winner shall be the person with the highest win percentage. In the case of ties, each player's KO'd Pokemon will serve as the tiebreaking statistic.

I totally agree with the second paragraph. As for individual matches themselves, I have thought up of and created a system to work by.

Every Pokemon has base statistics. The easiest for me to remember is Mew because Mew is 100 on all six stats. Mew has a total base statistic of 600 then. These statistics would convert to points. So KO’ing Mew would be worth 600 ‘points’. Whoever has the most points by the end of the third match is the winner.

You may think that the higher-number drafters may be screwed in this system, since their Pokemon will probably have much higher statistics (and be less cohesive), but in reality if you take almost any fully evolved Pokemon the difference between the amount of points each one’s worth are not that noticeably different.

For example, Dragonite will probably be drafted first. My favorite Pokemon is Bellossom. Most people would think that Dragonite is much stronger than Bellossom, and Bellossom probably will not even be drafted in this tournament. However, if you look at each Pokemon’s statistics:

Dragonite: 91 HP, 134 Attack, 95 Defense, 100 Special Attack, 100 Special Defense, 80 Speed, it adds up to 600.

Bellossom: 75 HP, 80 Attack, 85 Defense, 90 Special Attack, 100 Special Defense, 50 Speed, it adds up to 480.

In other words, KO’ing a Bellossom would be worth 80% that of KO’ing a Dragonite.

Of course, if we did agree to this system, everybody would have to post what Pokemon of theirs got KO’ed and how many times they were KO’ed. If this is too cumbersome let me know so I conceptualize a new system to work by.

NinjaguyDan’s idea sounds interesting … but I think whether the matches be duel or single should be up to the people playing the battle.

I request that I be the one to make the thread for the next tournament. It will include every approved idea that we have in this thread. I will not do any “secret rules”, or try to develop any new rules without the consent of the participants. That’s a promise.

What I can also promise, if I become the thread-maker for the next tournament, is my neutrality, and fairness to the rules we come to consent by. Also, if I’m the thread maker, then the first post can be the starting point for anyone to come and see up-to-the-day results of everything that’s occurring. This includes drafting, battle results, and overall tournament results continually being updated on the spot.

If you accept my points system, I will make a chart with all the Pokemon and how many points their KO is worth. This chart will be continually updated when Pokemon are drafted, and as well I will make a chart showing the Pokemon drafted, and by whom, to reduce the clutter it would take to look throughout the entire thread.

In other words, I will do anything within my power to make it easier for the participants (and spectators) to actively engage themselves in this fun activity.

So, do people agree to my idea? If so, I’ll design the thread now and post it when everybody thinks it’s time to post it.

FELIPE NO

That's a different method of calculating victory margins, I'll admit. I never would've considered using a Pokemon's cumulative base stats. It'd work and probably provide some compelling balances but everyone would need to understand, up front, that keeping a log of which Pokemon fell in what round will be necessary.

I suppose that as long as one combatant maintains this tab, it'll work out fine.

If you want to run the thread, Sane Brain, go ahead. I'm more of an idea guy anyhow; I enjoy seeing other people carry out my ideas to their fruition.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Sane Brain

Then there has to be the draft itself, but what happens if someone becomes inactive in the process of drafting? Should we wait until they become active again?

We could probably meet up in the IRC room #pokeymans to make sure everybody is available. Once everybody in there is confirmed to be present, then they can send their selections from there. Not everybody has an IRC client, but ChocoChat should provide a decent alternative.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'll throw in my endorsement for Crash's drafting idea while I'm here. I don't have any questions to ask him though. Everything seems perfectly clear.

How ya doing, buddy?

Hmm I wouldn't spend a month just to let everyone prepare for the tournament. I say a system like this might work a little more efficiently:
- Sign up roster remains open for one week. Remind players to already have a selection in mind before signing up.
- After the sign up week have each player PM you (or post, I suppose) their first three, then last three, just like Crash's method. Time limit for this phase is 3 days.
- After that, give everyone about a week to week and a half to prepare and level up their team.

And please, don't even try to IV train for the perfect pokemon. Unless you have absolutely nothing to do (which I don't think applies to anyone here.) We don't want to push the prep time longer than necessary. If it's TMs and certain rare pokemon you want it is faster to PM someone for a quick trade. I believe there are a couple players here that have ARs so you don't have to spend X amount of days on one thing.

Also, I don't mind you taking charge of the following tournament, Sane Brain =). Just be available to do the work!

Originally Posted by NinjaguyDan

As for the 6 vs 3 teams, maybe just make it 2 v 2 if someone wants a 6 v 6, and 1 v 1
on 3v3s. that way things would go much faster with combined team attacks.

I would definately be interested in playing the next tournament.

I honestly don't agree with that method of battling. Doing so would greatly affect the battle progression since certain strategies work much better in a doubles match. And therefor skew results. So my answer is either stick with Singles or Doubles for the length of the tournament.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I have my doubts that everyone will be available simultaneously to do a live draft, Icy. Doing the process via PM might be the only feasible method.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

While you're probably right about the live draft, Crash, I have to admit doing it entirely by PM might take a fairly long time, as well. We could probably try to get as much done as possible via IRC or some other messenger, and after that's exhausted, move to PMs?

Just a suggestion.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I understand your point but the key to a draft is that it must take place in a certain order. If the next person in line isn't available for IRC, the entire process is made to wait anyhow. So PMs still remain the most accessible option.

If it's a person's turn in the rotation and they want to send their choices via AIM, that's an option. But it won't make the next person up move any faster.

How ya doing, buddy?

Crash's idea has my support. Better than anything I've tossed up. :|

Just a little thought on it though. Even though it might take a little longer than we might anticipate, wouldn't it be more fair for each person to draft one Pokemon per round and just seperate drafting into three seperate rounds?

I dunno, I don't mind the whole three Pokemon draft thing in one round, but meh, it's just a nagging thought I have.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I've been thinking about this draft crucially, and I believe I have discovered the best way of doing it.

When Crash initially purposed the idea, I assumed that people would post their selections in a future thread. I did not even phantom the idea of using PMs until Kairyu suggested having a private draft. When I posted my idea of using PMs, I thought it would be like having each person individually give me their selections one-at-a-time, and this would obviously take a long time. (I also did not considered using a chat room since I had high doubts people could actually all be there at once)

I have then since concluded that it would be much more effective in a private system if everybody told me in a PM their first three selections first (six for the last person), and then I could tell people individually, “You can’t use *insert Pokemon name here* because it has been taken, please make another selection.” And this would repeat until everybody had chosen all their Pokemon. However, I found this idea potentially taking a long time. Plus, I think using a public system would be much more beneficial to using strategy based on what Crash said earlier.

Then I formulated a public system that I believe would be the best way of this draft to operate under by. Crash suggested that people should already have their selections in mind before the draft starts. I will take it further than that; everybody participating in the draft would have to PM me their top choices (at least nine), in order from the most desired to the least desired. Then, the first person would post his or her three selections, and I would cross those three selections off his or her list. The next person would do this as well, etc, etc. However, if there is an individual who takes longer than 12 hours to make a selection, I would then use their own list they gave me through the PM he or she gave me to claim his or her three most desired Pokemon on that list. At any one time can a person change their most desired Pokemon by PMing me. This way, people could, ‘queue’ their top choices and be involved even if they can’t make the 12-hour limit.

Kairyu, I do like your ideas for the time restraints, except for the drafting phase. Three days? If this tournament gets as many people as the last one did (10), pretty much no matter what you do, it’s going to take more than three days to do the draft.

I believe there are two types of time restrictions. Time restrictions that involve the number of players the tournament has, and the time restrictions that don’t involve the number of players the tournament has.

For example, posting in a thread, saying you want to be part of a tournament does not involve the number of players the tournament has. Right now this can be a set limit. And I agree with Kairyu’s suggestion of allowing potential players one week to sign up.

However, Kairyu then suggests a three day limit on the drafting process. The drafting process, unlike the first part, does involve the number of players the tournament has. If there were only three people in the next tournament, the time it would take them to draft their Pokemon would be significantly shorter than if there were fifteen people. This is why I believe it is necessary not to limit the time of the entire process, but rather limit the time it takes for each individual person to make his or her selection. For example, if there are ten people in the next tournament, and the 12-hour limit was the rule, then the absolute time limit of the drafting process would be nine and a half days. But this does not mean it would take nine and half days to do this process – if the people drafting make their selections faster than this, it could become be a very fast process. The new time limit always comes after the last person made their selection. If there are a lot of people absent, this could lead to me sleeping at very odd hours I will admit. But it’s the sacrifice I’ll have to make to keep this tournament afloat.

The third part of the tournament, preparing the actual team, is like the first part. It does not involve how many people are in the tournament. Therefore, it should be a week to a week and a half, as Kairyu suggested. I completely agree with him there.

This leads to the last process, the actual battling itself. It is like the second part as it depends on the amount of people battling each other. I’m not sure whether we should even have a definite date about this, but I purpose having a 1.5 times modifier per player. So if there were 2 people in the tournament, the amount of days they would have to battle would be 3.

Of course, all of this is open to debate and such. If people are in approval of my specific public drafting idea, I will make a post as soon as possible containing what would be in the thread. From there we can have our final discussions, and from that I can post the actual thread and have this tournament up and running.

FELIPE NO

Here's how I envisioned it all working:

1: Players sign up, and a total number of participants is determined.

2: Players are randomly assigned "draft" numbers, and will proceed to choose in numerical order; the player with the lowest number chooses first.

3: Player #1 goes first and selects 3 Pokemon. He may announce his choices in the draft thread or may send them to the coordinator via PM.

4: Once these choices are confirmed, the thread creator edits the "drafted" Pokemon into the opening post. Subsequent drafters will see that these Pokemon are no longer eligible for selection.

5: Player #2 makes his selections. The coordinator posts that person's choices as "drafted."

6: This process continues until all but the last player have chosen. The person with the highest number chooses all six Pokemon at once. Like before, these Pokemon are listed as "drafted".

7: The person with the second highest number chooses three more Pokemon, and the selection is announced publicly by the coordinator.

8: This process moves back down the sequence until the person with the lowest number chooses his last three Pokemon.

9: When it is a person's turn, that player has 24 hours to make his decision and notify the coordinator. Thus, checking in frequently is an important part of participation. We cannot wait for slackers.

10: If a person does not make a selection within 24 hours of the beginning of his turn, he is skipped and must wait until all other players have made their choice for that round. At that time, the slackers will be granted one more opportunity to choose, in the corresponding order of their draft numbers.

11: If a person misses both turns, or does not appear for their make-up selection, he is ejected from the competition. No apologies will be made. Any Pokemon that person may have chosen thus far will remain "Drafted", however, so as to avoid arguments over who would've/should've had the chance to take them instead. Screw you, you get no freebies.

12: Once teams are finalized, each person will have 10 days to assemble their team for play. It is not essential to have all Level 100 Pokemon, nor is EV training a must. However, it would be wisest to select your Pokemon based upon what you already have or can create in a very short time, not what you think is the ideal team.

13: Once the training period has expired, each player will be responsible for playing each other once, in a Best of Three battle. Because personal schedules and such can greatly vary, it will be up to each person to make contact with all opponents and set up battle times. Failure to do so will likely result in lost points in the standings.

14: Once all players have battled within the alloted period, the scores are tabulated. The person with the most overall victories is declared the winner. In the case of a tie, the player who lost the least amount of Pokemon is the winner. If that solves nothing, there will be a Sudden Death tiebreaker round consisting of one match - 6 vs.6. The victor will emerge as the champion.

15: People laugh and discuss the crazy shit that happened during their matches. Sane Brain goes crazy from consulting all his flow charts.

16: Punch and pie are served

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I'm convinced with Crash's idea. I can't beat pie. So, when can we start? =D

Originally Posted by Sane Brain

Kairyu, I do like your ideas for the time restraints, except for the drafting phase. Three days? If this tournament gets as many people as the last one did (10), pretty much no matter what you do, it’s going to take more than three days to do the draft.

Ah, I forgot to explain how I would handle the drafting process. I'll try to summarize it as much as possible.

Ok. So this starts as soon as the sign up roster is closed. Except for the last person as he would list all six pokemon, roughly what everyone would do is PM you their first three choices~ all at once. From there you will, in order from lowest placing, filter through every reply and draft each selection that way. You will of course reply back to each player to let them know if their selection was accepted. If someone has chosen an already drafted pokemon you will have to ask them to choose something else.

Once that is done, you post the list of drafted pokemon and instruct everyone to PM you again for their final three choices. Except for the guy that got to pick six. Then just rinse and repeat until everything is said and done. And that's it.

I can still see it taking more than three days, like you mentioned. I should have thought about that more. Though doing it this way should cut the drafting process by a good margin. If all participants reply back in a timely manner. The only undesirable effect I see is that it becomes slightly more of a private draft than a public one.

But I made the idea before seeing Crash's recent post on how the process would occur. And I kinda like that more, despite it possibly taking longer to work through.

It's your call.

Most amazing jew boots

Maybe I'm just slow, just being silly, or took an early swig of Crash's punch and something was in it, but this is a 6v6 tournament, correct?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

Sane Brain goes crazy from consulting all his flow charts.

Hahaha. Very funny, Crash.

So the only real difference between Crash's idea for the tournament and mine is that Crash would have a public draft with no queue and a 24-hour limit, instead of a 12-hour limit with a queue. And that matches would be decided upon who won two out of the three rounds, instead of using my points system.

And the only real difference between Kairyu's idea for the tournament and mine is he would do a private draft instead of a public one; but both of our ideal private drafting processes are the same.

But I'm not sure if Crash still wants to do his exact version, or if he likes my version of the draft more. His last post said envisioned.

I've already stated the reasons why I would prefer a public draft. I would prefer using a queue system because I think that's fairer to the people who have to be away for more than a day from their computers, for various reasons. And just because their away from their computers for an entire day doesn't mean they won't be available during the battle process.

Originally Posted by Chaotic

Maybe I'm just slow, just being silly, or took an early swig of Crash's punch and something was in it, but this is a 6v6 tournament, correct?

To answer your question, Chaotic, every match will be composed of three rounds. The first round will be a 6v6, while the second and third rounds will be 3v3.

Originally Posted by Kairyu

I'm convinced with Crash's idea. I can't beat pie. So, when can we start? =D

I'll be finished with the thread later this evening. I will post it as a spoiler in this thread for everybody to review before making any final touches, and then the final draft (pun intended) of the thread will be created shortly thereafter. So probably before Friday.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Alrighty, just making sure. So three Pokemon in the first round, another three in the second round.

Gotcha.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Sane Brain

But I'm not sure if Crash still wants to do his exact version, or if he likes my version of the draft more.

I think there's a tendency for each person to bear a slight bias toward his own ideas. However, the logistics are ultimately the call of the tournament organizer. As you've expressed a desire to mediate the proceedings, I'd defer to whichever system you used.

Just bear in mind that simplicity seems to earn more participation around here. (Of course, players probably won't have to do all the calculations themselves. But if they clearly understand how you arrive at your numbers, I think it'll put olks at better ease.)

I was speaking idiomatically.