The Immigration Protests

The issue I addressed was the idea that illegals cost the government however many million dollars.

Also, under current laws, most illegals are not entitled to deportation simply by being here illegaly, thus the controversy.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

If anybody actually thinks that illegal immigration is somehow, against all common sense and logic, helping the US economy, I urge you to take a look at this:

http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html

Some of the quotes from this article:

Quote:

The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states $7.4 billion annually—enough to buy a computer for every junior high student nationwide.

Quote:

$60 billion dollars are earned by illegal aliens in the U.S. each year. One of Mexico's largest revenue streams (after exports and oil sales) consists of money sent home by legal immigrants and illegal aliens working in the U.S. Economists say this will help Mexico reduce its $17.8 billion defecit and may bolster the peso.

Quote:

FAIR research suggests that "between 40 and 50 percent of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers. Some native workers lose not just wages but their jobs through immigrant competition. An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration; the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year." The National Research Council, part of the National Academy of Sciences, found in 1997 that the average immigrant without a high school education imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000.

Quote:

Illegal aliens have cost billions of taxpayer-funded dollars for medical services. Dozens of hospitals in Texas, New Mexico Arizona, and California, have been forced to close or face bankruptcy because of federally-mandated programs requiring free emergency room services to illegal aliens. Taxpayers pay half-a-billion dollars per year incarcerating illegal alien criminals.

Quote:

Immigration is a net drain on the economy; corporate interests reap the benefits of cheap labor, while taxpayers pay the infrastructural cost. FAIR research shows "the net annual cost of immigration has been estimated at between $67 and $87 billion a year. The National Academy of Sciences found that the net fiscal drain on American taxpayers is between $166 and $226 a year per native household. Even studies claiming some modest overall gain for the economy from immigration ($1 to $10 billion a year) have found that it is outweighed by the fiscal cost ($15 to $20 billion a year) to native taxpayers."

Quote:

Based on Census Bureau data, the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would grow to nearly $29 billion.

We have existing laws that need to be followed. Right now what is happening is that we are letting illegal immigrants undermine the law. Apart from being a massive security risk, we start ignoring our borders...well our political borders define the extent of our country. That's pretty important, I'd say.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

My take on the state of immigration into the United States would definitely be described by most as extreme-left-leaning.

I think the U.S. should have an open-border policy, to be honest.

The economic benefits we enjoy through immigration I think outweigh a lot of the costs and supposed strain. The argriculture industry in the U.S. wouldn't exist if it weren't for immigrants. A large portion of the first farmers in California were Chinese, who were later expelled, due to the Chinese Exclusion Act. They produced a lot of fresh-goods needed to support the mining industry in the Western states.

Besides, I don't really understand the argument against immigrants, whether legally or illegally entering the country. They're here for a reason: primarily, economic opportunity. This sounds familiar, actually.

What really aggrivates me the most is that I hear a lot of "white" people talk about how this is their land and that their families had struggled to make this land what it is, today. Well, news flash, if you're white you're not native to North America. Your family probably immigrated here illegally as well, because really the idea of hardline legal immigration has only risen in the last century or so. Furthermore, I don't remember any of the European settlers signing documents or filing paper-work with the natives that had inhabited this land for about 20,000 years before their arrival.

I apologize, this post has been extremely disorganized, because my thoughts on this subject are many and they are coming through my fingertips all at once.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that they make it much easier to gain legal entry into the country. However, when you don't have an "underclass" of illegal immigrants, you lose the economic benefit of a cheap labor force.

Another issue I'd like to address is that low-skill, low-wage jobs are being displaced, anyway. Off-shoring and mechanizing contributes a lot to this, as well. Maybe if we had a better education system and more available funding for those who wish to pursue post-secondary education, we wouldn't need to worry so much about American citizens being displaced by immigrants. Economies change, America is shifting from a heavy industry based economy to a service industry based economy which requires a lot of skilled labor, while still maintaining a need for a large unskilled labor force. It's how economies grow and societies progress. Need an example? Look at Post-War Japan and now look at China, China is doing what Japan did 50 years ago.

How ya doing, buddy?

Quote:

Furthermore, I don't remember any of the European settlers signing documents or filing paper-work with the natives that had inhabited this land for about 20,000 years before their arrival.

What does this have to do with anything? The United States didn't exist then, it does now, and as such, it has laws against what these people are doing.

With that said, I got no problem if the law was changed to make it easier to come to America legally, but as it stands, you know how I am about people actually following the law. If the law stays as it is, then these people should be booted out and should never receive any kind of benefit or incentive to stay because they are indeed criminals. Without the rule of law everything in the Constitution is meaningless.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Well, my point is that we didn't really immigrate hear legally, either. We also displaced the dominant population that was here before we were. If you look at the rate of immigration by the latin population, combined with their natural population growth, they'll eventually be the majority population in many parts of the United States.

In other words, it's just something that happens, populations migrate, new populations arise and expand. The only reason we make a big deal about it is that we seem to be xenophobic. It's poetic justice, honestly.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Well, my point is that we didn't really immigrate hear legally, either.

Since the Vikings/Pilgrims/Russian-Eskimos didn't come to an established nation, that statement has absolutely no worth.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Then again, most people put too much stock in establishments.

Shit, that bugs me that I didn't catch that gross-oversight earlier. HERE, not hear, fucking English homonyms.

Regardless, we took the land they inhabited. We didn't ask permission, we didn't come in peace. Whether or not there was some unifying legal body, it makes no difference to me.

How ya doing, buddy?

Of course, using the same train of logic you're using here, those we displaced shouldn't have tried to stop us from doing so.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Well, illegal immigration isn't particularly threatening anyone's lifestyle. At least, to such an extent that we'd go to Franconian lengths to expel them from our country. If anything, it provides a great economic benefit.

I don't see how you can call anyone a drain on the economy if they're actively participating in production within the economy. Which these immigrants are, that's why they're here.

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Since Duo seems to have completely missed this rather large post, I'll post it once again in the hopes that he will catch it.

-----------------------------------------------------

If anybody actually thinks that illegal immigration is somehow, against all common sense and logic, helping the US economy, I urge you to take a look at this:

http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html

Some of the quotes from this article:

Quote:

The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states $7.4 billion annually—enough to buy a computer for every junior high student nationwide.

Quote:

$60 billion dollars are earned by illegal aliens in the U.S. each year. One of Mexico's largest revenue streams (after exports and oil sales) consists of money sent home by legal immigrants and illegal aliens working in the U.S. Economists say this will help Mexico reduce its $17.8 billion defecit and may bolster the peso.

Quote:

FAIR research suggests that "between 40 and 50 percent of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers. Some native workers lose not just wages but their jobs through immigrant competition. An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration; the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year." The National Research Council, part of the National Academy of Sciences, found in 1997 that the average immigrant without a high school education imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000.

Quote:

Illegal aliens have cost billions of taxpayer-funded dollars for medical services. Dozens of hospitals in Texas, New Mexico Arizona, and California, have been forced to close or face bankruptcy because of federally-mandated programs requiring free emergency room services to illegal aliens. Taxpayers pay half-a-billion dollars per year incarcerating illegal alien criminals.

Quote:

Immigration is a net drain on the economy; corporate interests reap the benefits of cheap labor, while taxpayers pay the infrastructural cost. FAIR research shows "the net annual cost of immigration has been estimated at between $67 and $87 billion a year. The National Academy of Sciences found that the net fiscal drain on American taxpayers is between $166 and $226 a year per native household. Even studies claiming some modest overall gain for the economy from immigration ($1 to $10 billion a year) have found that it is outweighed by the fiscal cost ($15 to $20 billion a year) to native taxpayers."

Quote:

Based on Census Bureau data, the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would grow to nearly $29 billion.

We have existing laws that need to be followed. Right now what is happening is that we are letting illegal immigrants undermine the law. Apart from being a massive security risk, we start ignoring our borders...well our political borders define the extent of our country. That's pretty important, I'd say.

-----------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Duo

Regardless, we took the land they inhabited. We didn't ask permission, we didn't come in peace. Whether or not there was some unifying legal body, it makes no difference to me.

So what you are saying is that its OK for them to break the law, because we did something similar several hundred years ago? When there weren't any immigration laws?

Someone killed my mother so I guess that makes it ok for me to kill them? Because they've broken the law?

You are an utter paradox.

How ya doing, buddy?

Dude your assuming that the 7.4 billion spent would be spent to do something Right - Where in all reality if it wasnt being wasted as is, it would end up in some wealthy guys bank account. I Agree these protests are stupid and if your not legal u should be happy you havent been caught and go about your buisness, Not throw it in the face of the government. Dark link i dont cee a problem with the peso going up in value. Why is it bad to help Mexico improve its situation, it is one of our nearest neighboors. And the porblem with low skilled work is not illegal immigrants, Its unfair pay scales. In a world where a VP works 2 days a week and flies to his job 300 miles away for those two days of work and makes 300 times the average employee, There is the problem not illegal immagrants.

And Excuse the spelling some Bottingttons pub ale, Sam Light, And Newcastle - And some patron will make it hard to spell.

I was speaking idiomatically.

DarkLink, I didn't "miss" your post.

I don't see anything citing how much the availability of immigrant workers has off-set labor costs. I see the highest estimated cost of illegal immigrants to the federal budget is $30 billion, which is a drop in the bucket. Since you're talking about a budget that totals more than 2.2 trillion, annually.

Quote:

Transfer of wealth

Yet, that tiny economywide number masks a major redistribution of wealth. The cross-border movement of generally low-skilled, low-educated immigrants has depressed wages for unskilled native workers while helping keep consumer prices under control and inflating profits for employers.

Borjas estimates that workers lose $278 billion because of immigration, while employers gain $300 billion. "There's a huge redistribution away from workers to people who use immigrants. ... That's what people are arguing about," says Borjas, an immigration specialist.

The immigration controversy revolves around questions of national identity, security in a post-Sept.-11 world and the workings of a $12 trillion economy. Illegal immigrants are essential workers on American farms, in hotels and restaurants and on construction sites. An estimated 7.2 million illegals provide much of the unskilled muscle that the USA's Information Age economy requires: 36% of insulation workers, 29% of farm hands and 27% of butchers.

That's nothing new. Historically, the contributions of the Irish, Germans, Italians, Mexicans and other groups to the American edifice are essential elements of the national belief system. Immigrants labored, often under harsh conditions, in New England paper mills, Midwestern steel plants and along the transcontinental railroads.

Yet, for every person inspired by the Statue of Liberty's welcome for "the huddled masses yearning to breathe free," there were those who saw the newcomers as alien and even threatening. From the nativist Know-Nothing Party of the 1850s to the "No-Irish-Need-Apply" advertisements of the late 19th century, xenophobia marched hand-in-hand with dependence upon the foreign-born.

Experts dispute the cost to government of illegal immigrants. Between 55% and 65% of illegal migrants have income and Social Security taxes withheld from their pay, says Jeffrey Passel of the Pew Hispanic Center. Those who buy or rent homes also pay property taxes. In communities that impose sales taxes, they pay those, too.

Quote:

Immigrants Comprise a Large Portion of the U.S. Workforce

• In 2000 immigrant workers constituted 12.4 percent of the nation's labor force(1) and
headed 20 percent of low-income households in the U.S.(2)
• New immigrants (immigrants who entered the U.S. after 1990) accounted for 50.3
percent of the growth in the civilian labor force between 1990 and 2001.(3)
• Assuming that today's levels of immigration remain constant, immigrants will account for
half of the working-age population growth between 2006 and 2015 and for all of the
growth between 2016 and 2035.(4)
• Almost 63 percent of foreign-born workers, primarily from Latin America,(5) work in
service, manufacturing, and agricultural occupations.(6)

Immigrants Are Critical to the Current and Future Growth of the U.S. Economy

• The number of native-born workers age 35-44 will be smaller in the next 30 years than it
is today. More than 60 million current employees will likely retire during this period.(7)
• The National Academy of Sciences and National Research Council concluded that, in
1997, the U.S. reaped a $50 billion surplus from taxes paid by immigrants to all levels of
government.(8)
• Without the contribution of immigrant labor, the output of goods and services in the U.S.
would be at least $1 trillion smaller than it is today(9) and the civilian labor force would
have only grown 5 percent (versus 11.5 percent) between 1990 to 2001.(10)
• The total net benefit to the Social Security system if immigration levels remain constant
will be nearly $500 billion for the 1998-2022 period and nearly $2 trillion through
2072.(11)

Immigrant Workers Are Critical to Local Economies Across the Country

• Immigrants are no longer settling only in the six states (California, New York, Florida,
Texas, New Jersey, and Illinois) in which they have traditionally lived, but are moving to
nontraditional states, such as Georgia, Nebraska, North Carolina, and Idaho. In the
1990s the immigrant population in nontraditional immigrant states grew twice as fast as in
the traditional states (61 percent versus 31 percent).(12)
• Between 1990 and 2001, new immigrants (immigrants who entered the U.S. after 1990)
generated all of the labor force growth in the Northeast, 30 percent of the growth in the
Midwest region, 36 percent of the growth in the South, and 50 percent of the growth in
the West.(13)

Quote:

Undocumented Immigrants Effect on Social Security

*

Undocumented immigrants compose about three percent of the total US population. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso)
*

The estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the Social Security system with a subsidy of about $7 billion a year. (The New York Times)
*

Immigrants contribute billions of dollars annually but receive no public pension in retirement, are not eligible for Medicare, and are not entitled to any other benefits. (Social Security Administration)
*

Most undocumented workers pay taxes, and they pay a variety of taxes. (The New York Times)
*

The money that undocumented immigrants paid in 2004 added up to about 10 percent of that year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it pays in pension benefits. (Social Security Administration)
*

The money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections. (Social Security Administration)
*

After the 1986 passage of the Immigration Reform and Control Act, the Social Security Administration began receiving mountains of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect or fake Social Security numbers, and placed them in the "earnings suspense file." Since then, the file has grown, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes. (Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago)
*

Many older workers return home to Latin America when they reach retirement age. (BusinessWeek)



The Healthcare System and Undocumented Immigrants

*

Immigrants are not swamping the U.S. health care system and use it far less than native-born Americans. (The American Journal of Public Health)
*

Immigrants accounted for 10.4 percent of the U.S. population but only 7.9 percent of total health spending and 8 percent of government health spending. (The American Journal of Public Health)
*

Thirty percent of immigrants use no health care at all during the course of a year. (The American Journal of Public Health)
*

Immigrant children spent or cost $270 a year, compared to $1,059 for native-born children. (The American Journal of Public Health)
*

Most immigrants have health insurance. (The American Journal of Public Health)
*

In reality, if more restrictions were placed on health care for immigrants, very little money would be saved, and many immigrant children would be put at grave risk. Many immigrant children already fail to get regular checkups, and as a result, more end up needing emergency care, or get no care at all. (The American Journal of Public Health)
*

Many immigrants actually help to subsidize health care and social security for the rest the country. (Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University)
*

Immigrants pay taxes -- including Medicare payroll taxes -- and most pay health insurance premiums, but they receive only half as much care as other families. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Economic Impact of Undocumented Immigrants

*

Undocumented immigrants have become a new source of economic growth as giant U.S. consumer companies like banks, insurers, mortgage lenders, credit-card outfits, phone carriers, and others aggressively market to over 11 million undocumented customers. (BusinessWeek)
*

Undocumented immigrants add 600,000 to 700,000 new consumers to the economy every year. (Pew Research Center)
*

84% of undocumented immigrants are 18-to-44-year-olds, in their prime spending years, vs. 60% of legal residents. (BusinessWeek)
*

Allowing immigrants financial privileges boosts corporate profits because it enables them to move out of the cash economy, put their money in banks, and take out credit cards, car loans, and home mortgages. U.S. gross national product also surges because consumers with credit can spend more than those limited to cash. (BusinessWeek)
*

When more undocumented immigrants pay income and property taxes, they help ease the tax burden for others when it comes to paying for schools, health care, roads, and other services immigrants use. (BusinessWeek)
*

Letting the undocumented save and invest, could also result in a decline in crime because if immigrants are allowed to protect their money in banks, the rate of hold ups and robberies in Latino or immigrant neighborhoods drop. (Austin Police Department)
*

Immigrants benefit the economy more than they take away in social services. (National Academy of the Sciences)
*

In 2004, Arizona suffered severe labor shortages and huge quantities of lettuce went unpicked because growers lacked pickers. In 2005, the Central Valley in California had 70,000 to 80,000 labor positions that were unfilled. Legalizing workers would alleviate such labor shortages. (Benjamin Powell, economist at the Independent Institute)
*

Immigrants are one of the main labor sources for the rebuilding and clean-up effort in post-Katrina Louisiana and Mississippi. (NewAmericanMedia.org)
*

As much as half of all U.S. retail banking growth is expected to come from new immigrants over the next decade. (The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp)
*

Hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrant households earn enough to qualify for $95,000 mortgages. (National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals)
*

ITIN and conventional mortgages taken out by undocumented could be worth as much as $60 billion over the next five years. (National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals) Undocumented immigrants now comprise fully half of all farm laborers, up from 12% in 1990. (US Department of Labor)
*

Undocumented immigrants are 25% of workers in the meat and poultry industry, 24% of dishwashers, and 27% of drywall and ceiling tile installers. (The Pew Research Center)
*

The overall proportion of unauthorized workers in the labor force is 4.3%. Employers from many sectors of the US economy employ unauthorized immigrants – including enormous amounts of private US households. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso)
*

The estimated population growth rate in Mexico is declining rapidly and may soon be slower than that in the US. (United Nations)
*

Immigrants benefit the United States economy but their potential remains hindered by current laws. They do not deplete government resources, as is widely believed. (Benjamin Powell, economist at the Independent Institute)
*

Undocumented add at least $22 billion, in total, to the economy each year, and legalizing their status would increase that amount. (Benjamin Powell, economist at the Independent Institute).

National Security and the Undocumented

*

None of the 9/11 terrorists entered the country via the US/Mexico border. In fact, the US is most vulnerable at its ports of entry, including ship ports, airports, and land ports. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).
*

It is not easy to immigrate to the US legally as it often takes decades before an individual can obtain many kinds of legal immigrant visas. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).
*

Working with Mexico is central to the future of controlling the US border. Through cooperation with Mexico, the US will be able to isolate criminals, publicize rules, and identify forms of Mexican identification. (Peter Laufer, former NBC new correspondent).
*

Enhanced border enforcement only increases the number of deaths of men, women, and children at the border annually. Areas with heavy border security see up to 100 additional deaths a year. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).
*

While heavy border does not stop the volume of unauthorized border crossing, it does increase the costs and risks of coming to the US, including death, injury, and the use of smugglers. It also reduces the number of back and forth trips, forcing undocumented immigrants to stay longer. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Igod82

Dude your assuming that the 7.4 billion spent would be spent to do something Right - Where in all reality if it wasnt being wasted as is, it would end up in some wealthy guys bank account. I Agree these protests are stupid and if your not legal u should be happy you havent been caught and go about your buisness, Not throw it in the face of the government. Dark link i dont cee a problem with the peso going up in value. Why is it bad to help Mexico improve its situation, it is one of our nearest neighboors. And the porblem with low skilled work is not illegal immigrants, Its unfair pay scales. In a world where a VP works 2 days a week and flies to his job 300 miles away for those two days of work and makes 300 times the average employee, There is the problem not illegal immagrants.

It's fine to help Mexico improve their standard of living.

Through LEGAL means.

Stop trying to offshift the problem to something else. This thread is about the problem of illegal immigration, and saying: "Well, this is ALSO a problem." isn't going to make illegal immigration any less of an issue.

One problem at a time .

Double Post:
Those stats, at least from someone of my perspective, only increase my desire to get illegal immigrants out of the country. Those stats are basically saying "Illegal Immigrants only cost X amount of money, it isn't THAT bad."

Well, saying

Quote:

Immigrant children spent or cost $270 a year, compared to $1,059 for native-born children.

Just makes me think thats $270 too much. It's still a drain on our health care system that shouldn't be there. If they are LEGAL immigrants, than great.

The only section I'm really going to respond to other than what I said about all of them in general is about National Security, because that is just BS.

Quote:

None of the 9/11 terrorists entered the country via the US/Mexico border. In fact, the US is most vulnerable at its ports of entry, including ship ports, airports, and land ports. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

That literally makes no difference whatsoever. The security risk is still THERE and STILL very big. Just because it isn't as big of a problem doesn't make it OK to ignore it.

Quote:

It is not easy to immigrate to the US legally as it often takes decades before an individual can obtain many kinds of legal immigrant visas. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

Oh boo, hoo. Cry me up a storm. It's too hard, so you are just going to do it illegally? That does NOT make it OK. Petition to get the system changed or something, that doesn't give you an excuse to break the law. We have immigration quotas for a reason, mainly so our economy doesn't get wrecked.

Quote:

Working with Mexico is central to the future of controlling the US border. Through cooperation with Mexico, the US will be able to isolate criminals, publicize rules, and identify forms of Mexican identification. (Peter Laufer, former NBC new correspondent).

That would be great, except Mexico has no desire to, and has expressed no desire to help control the flood of illegal immigrants coming into this country. Behind oil, money coming from illegal immigrants is Mexico's largest form of income. Meaning - that is money NOT going back into the US economy.

Quote:

Enhanced border enforcement only increases the number of deaths of men, women, and children at the border annually. Areas with heavy border security see up to 100 additional deaths a year. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

This might seem cold...but I really don't care. At all. These people are trying to break the law. That's a risk they are going to have to take. This entire thing seems to ignore the fact that these are CRIMINALS.

Quote:

While heavy border does not stop the volume of unauthorized border crossing, it does increase the costs and risks of coming to the US, including death, injury, and the use of smugglers. It also reduces the number of back and forth trips, forcing undocumented immigrants to stay longer. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

Again, SO WHAT. And I am having a VERY hard time believing that more border security doesn't drop unauthorized border crossings at all.

FELIPE NO

True u are right this is about illegal immigrants protesting. And i do not think they should have done that, it was stupid. I actually have some friends here that are from El Salvador ( on Work Visas ) that also agree that it was stupid. Thing that i find odd though is that alot of these Salvadoreans came illegally then when they got here they where able to obtain work visas because of the situation in El Salvador. Im curious y they could not have obtained the visa prior to coming here to the USA.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Igod82

True u are right this is about illegal immigrants protesting. And i do not think they should have done that, it was stupid. I actually have some friends here that are from El Salvador ( on Work Visas ) that also agree that it was stupid. Thing that i find odd though is that alot of these Salvadoreans came illegally then when they got here they where able to obtain work visas because of the situation in El Salvador. Im curious y they could not have obtained the visa prior to coming here to the USA.

I agree with you, but anticipating some members responses about how it is their constitutional right to protest:

They are illegal immigrants. ILLEGAL. They don't have that kind of constitutional protection.

Your El Salvador friends are kind of a weird situation...while they did come here illegally...I for one am VERY glad they decided to go through legal means to stay here, and get work visas. It shows that there are people of integrity left here .

I don't know about getting visas back in El Salvador. There may have been some extenuating circumstance that prevented them from doing so. That doesn't make what they did RIGHT, but that does explain why they would come here illegally and then get work visas to stay here legally.

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Heres what I don't get.

We still allow people to come to our country and apply for citizenship. Green cards and visas are still given out, even in this post-9/11 media shitstorm.

So how can anyone claim that illegal immigration is "right", morally or otherwise? All they're doing is undermining the people that came here and applied and became citizens legally.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Quote:

We have immigration quotas for a reason, mainly so our economy doesn't get wrecked.

That's the most ignorant statement, ever. Even with all of the illegal immigration into our country, we still end up with a net economic benefit.

Back during the era of Western expansion and "Manifest Destiny" bullshit, hundreds of thousands of immigrants came here from all over the world East Asia, Europe, without documentation. They worked in silver, gold, iron, copper and coal mines, built our transcontinental railroad system, grew our crops and made our textile goods.

Our economy has always been an immigrant economy. I don't believe you idiots can't see that. Americans have gone through every conceivable ethnicity from Blacks in slavery growing cotton to Irish working in sub-human conditions in various mills from lumber to fabrics.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

That's the most ignorant statement, ever. Even with all of the illegal immigration into our country, we still end up with a net economic benefit.

I'm sorry, but you appear to have a VERY poor understanding of economics.

http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html

Quote:

Immigration is a net drain on the economy; corporate interests reap the benefits of cheap labor, while taxpayers pay the infrastructural cost. FAIR research shows "the net annual cost of immigration has been estimated at between $67 and $87 billion a year. The National Academy of Sciences found that the net fiscal drain on American taxpayers is between $166 and $226 a year per native household. Even studies claiming some modest overall gain for the economy from immigration ($1 to $10 billion a year) have found that it is outweighed by the fiscal cost ($15 to $20 billion a year) to native taxpayers."

Quote:

Back during the era of Western expansion and "Manifest Destiny" bullshit, hundreds of thousands of immigrants came here from all over the world East Asia, Europe, without documentation. They worked in silver, gold, iron, copper and coal mines, built our transcontinental railroad system, grew our crops and made our textile goods.

Our economy has always been an immigrant economy. I don't believe you idiots can't see that. Americans have gone through every conceivable ethnicity from Blacks in slavery growing cotton to Irish working in sub-human conditions in various mills from lumber to fabrics.

I'm not going to say anything further if you can't see the obvious differences between not only LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration, but the fact that our economy is radically different than it was, oh, say 150 years ago?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stop making excuses for them. Even if you are somehow able to twist around the facts enough in your own mind and actually think they are benefiting our economy as a whole, you should know enough to know that it isn't an excuse to break the law. If I have a murderer going around killing everyone with an IQ under 80, then I guess we should just let him, because he's getting rid of the idiots, right? He's doing something beneficial. Yeah, sorry, you lose.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

:sigh: whatever....whatever goes on, someone's gonna complain about it so might as well sit back and see what sort of druginfested sh** that Bush and the Senate would come up with this time.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by DarkLink2135

I'm sorry, but you appear to have a VERY poor understanding of economics.

While you and I are on the same side of the fence on this issue - you make a really shitty arguement and make all of us who are against illegal immigrants look bad.

Can you make a point without quoting someone else or linking us to another site? Is there an original thought in your head? Quoting something from the internet doesn't make you right at all - its a hollow response, like a robot unable to think outside its programming.

Please - please - use your own words. And I don't mean just take a quote and change stuff around. Come up with something yourself.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I refuse to argue with you DarkLink, as well, because I've found sources on USATODAY, The New York times and BBCWorld that site sources claiming a $10~$30 billion NET GAIN. NET not Gross. This is including the costs of providing medical care, education and other public services versus the drop in labor costs, leading to increased profit margins for publically traded corporations and small-businesses, as well as maintaining high-availability and low-cost of commodities.

Yes, our economy IS changing, that's why immigration benefits us so much. Because more "natives" (even though they're not native), are moving to highly skilled labor positions, with a huge percentage of my generation receiving college degrees. Fewer and fewer "natives" are going into manual labor jobs. This is what should be happening a new population moves in as sort of an underclass and takes up the unskilled labor positions. There're always new markets in goods and services opening up, specifically in the realm of technology. There will be enough jobs for "natives", the key is making sure that we stay competitive in regards to education.

Why is it that people don't understand this? It's not a difficult concept.

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Originally Posted by LeHah

While you and I are on the same side of the fence on this issue - you make a really shitty arguement and make all of us who are against illegal immigrants look bad.

Can you make a point without quoting someone else or linking us to another site? Is there an original thought in your head? Quoting something from the internet doesn't make you right at all - its a hollow response, like a robot unable to think outside its programming.

Please - please - use your own words. And I don't mean just take a quote and change stuff around. Come up with something yourself.

Fuck off, I didn't ask for your opinion. I added some of my own words in there, and quoted a source. I suppose you think pretty words and a bunch of bullshit beats actually having factual sources to back up what you are saying. I said what I wanted to about that source posts back, I'm not about to repeat myself because Colonel Asshole wants to bitch about it. Sometimes simple facts speak more for themselves than anything I could say about them regardless. So I make one post where I mostly quote facts, whoop-de-fucking do.

But apparantly it looks like its OK for Duo to do exactly that.

I'm done in here. I've said all I'm going to say about the subject in the posts I've made before.

They've broken the law, plain and simple, get them the fuck out of here.

EDIT -> I'll add one thing more. And I won't quote any sources, as per your preference. Allowing illegals to stay in this country or granting them amnesty is going to weaken our laws. Its undermining the US constitution and weakening what it means to actually be a sovereign nation. It's only going to encourage more people to come here because they believe our politicians are too weak to do anything about it. And from what I've seen, I agree.

Mostly I'm concerned about this from a national security standpoint. As I believe Duo stated before, our main security risks are our ports. However, that doesn't mean we should just ignore the borders.

I also don't subscribe to the philosophy that they are just doing jobs Americans won't do. There isn't ANY job Americans won't do, so long as they can afford basic life necessities. And if you're a teenager, you don't even need to worry about that.

The best way to solve illegal immigration is to start with the companies hiring illegal immigrants. To some extent we have done a little bit in that area, but nowhere near enough. It's simple - if illegals can't get jobs here, they'll stop coming.

I'm all for immigration. As long as its done through legal means and stays within the immigration quotas we have set.

Whether they actually help our economy or not is pointless and is not the issue at hand. The fact of the matter is, they have broken the law. Something needs to be done in reprimand. If we are just going to change our laws because we are too cowardly to do anything about it, we may as well not have them, because they don't mean anything. Laws are just pretty words without anybody backing them up.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

On the subject of breaking laws, you feel that blindly following the law makes for a better society? What're your feelings on the Patriot Act? Or, better yet, what about Rosa Parks? She broke the law, was she unjustified?

I'd like to know what your feelings are on sodomy laws, or for that matter, any law concerning two adults in a consenting sexual situation.

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Laws exist for a reason, to keep order in society. You don't have laws, you have anarchy. If everyone just starts undermining the law and we let them, we don't have a country anymore. We have a craphole.

You can change laws, but through LEGAL means. If you don't like the Patriot Act, that doesn't exempt you from having to follow the laws it outlines. Write a letter to your congressman, start a coalition to get the law changed, whatever.

And yes, Rosa Parks broke the law, plain and simple. Did she have a reason to make a stand? Sure. Did it make a difference? Sure. That doesn't mean she wasn't a criminal for doing so. Was she right? I believe so. But you can't just start saying that its OK whenever anyone breaks the law because of "such and such" a situation. There are better ways of doing things.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Devo

You missed Duo's point entirely, certain laws are/were unconstutional and it takes people to rebel against them before this fact is even debated by the government.

Aight, gg, you caught me there. If something really truly is unconstitutional, as was the discrimination against African Americans, something radical like that truly does need to be done to make a change.

But I'd hardly catagorize illegal immigration as being lawful under the US constitution.

Oh and for the record -> I believe most of the Patriot Act is constitutional (although some provisions clearly are not), although I can hardly say I like any of it.

EDIT-> Regardless, this situation hardly mirrors what African Americans went through in the 40s & 50s. They were legal US citizens being denied the civil rights that every other American was given. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law by simply being here. This isn't really a race issue - its a legal issue.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Devo

Yeah they're breaking the law but it's funny how when people ask you to provide further explanation you just link a website or post a quote. It isn't a big deal to ask for you to write a post in your own words. Duo did just that, so what's your point?

Nobody asked me to provide further explanation. I posted those facts from that website just to provide further information to anyone reading this thread.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.