Research suggests men are clueless when it comes to women.

ITT Deni RAGE

FYI I don't take any relationship from my mother. She's been married and divorced twice and has early warning signs of turning into a crazy cat lady.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Why should we cater to your needs when other men make an actual effort to communicate with us?

Honestly, I think whether male or female. Everyone should be more direct when they like someone. Or for that matter dislike someone. Inspite of the fact that I've never gotten a date, not a single girl ever gave me a real no. They always came up with some way to avoid answering. Naturally I understand when they're doing this now, but I didn't used to.

But seriously if you like someone, why should the guys be the only ones to say something? Are women so obsessed with the notion that guys have to ask, that they're willing to go unnoticed and miss out on someone they liked? Meanwhile the guy they like might be going around asking out women that have no interest in him.

I've learned of girls that supposedly liked me, but I always find out when it's too late for the knowledge to be of any use to me.

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Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Why should we cater to your needs when other men make an actual effort to communicate with us?

It goes both ways: Men don't get the 'sublte' hints women often do, like twirling their hair or scooching closer or whatever else you wanna give as an example, while women aren't forward enough. I can't tell you how many times I've been confused if a woman is flirting with me or just being friendly. There needs to be a greater sense of shared communication standards across the sexes.

When you say "those men who 'make an effort' ", therein lies the problem: No one should have to make 'an effort' to communicate. Communication is a fundamental skill which I think should be something that is done freely, easily, and at will. Now there's an important distinction however: Communication in and of itself should be something that anyone can do, however Flirting or Showing interest, I think DOES require effort on both parts, because
of your specific intentions. However as I said above: Men don't get the small clues given to them, and women don't give clear signs of their interest... So I guess in a way, everyone needs to make an effort,

just not in basic Communication.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

Men don't get the small clues given to them, and women don't give clear signs of their interest.

Yes they fucking DO. YOU just can't read them. A load of fucking internet virgins on a gaming website is not a suitable testing group for this subject. Why do you think those fucking meatheads you nerds all detest can pull skirts at will? Because they've learned the fucking game, haven't they? It's a skill. It's a skill just like any other goddamn skill. If you don't practice seduction and attraction, you'll fucking suck at it. Shin, Beaner and I are not the prettiest men on this site. We're rarely the prettiest men in a bloody room, but I'm getting the impression the three of us pull more than the rest of you lot combined. Why do you suppose that is? Maybe it's because we took the five bloody seconds it took to learn what to look for. How to make people aware we're interested.

You know, those generic traits a fucking APE has learned. If you can master how to play Donkey Kong Country, you can learn how to play a woman. Christ. Stop talking like you're in bloody elementary school. No, actually talk MORE like you're in elementary school. Pull someone's pigtails and call them stupid. At least then you might be on the right path for letting them know you're interested.

Originally Posted by DarkMageOzzie

Inspite of the fact that I've never gotten a date...

And that, right there, sums up the problems you lot have with women. You think -they're- the problem. They aren't. You just suck at this, because you're over thinking it. I have played councilor to semi-pros like Frank all the way down to weeaboo trolls like Ultima, and you know what? They've all been able to do fine. Why? Because they stop cramming their heads up their asses and take a moment to rationalize the bloody situation. You're terrified of women, you have no confidence and you clearly aren't aggressive personalities. Now why, I wonder, would women have a problem finding a proper way to flirt with you? Maybe because women don't like spineless fucking ponces. Show a little goddamn initiative. Smile, tell a fucking JOKE. FLIRT FOR GOD'S SAKES. Do it for fun. I do it all the time. I flirt with my roommate when I get up in the morning, I flirt with people I work with, I flirt with my friend's girlfriends. Why? So that when I meet a girl I honest to god want to plow, I can turn on the charm like it's second nature. Because after a while, it bloody well is.

I'm a fat, hairy ex-punk rocker, sarcastic, arrogant git. And I've been pulling women since I was 14. You have no fucking excuses. Any guy. ANY GUY can pull women way outside his "range". It's fucking laughably easy. That's the truth of it, isn't it? It's SIMPLE. You just have to get good at it. If you think you're good enough for them, or even better, if you think you're too good for them, chances are, they will too. Women like confidence. Men like confidence. If you don't act like a fucking berke, people will like you better. It's pretty simple.

I should sell fucking books on tape or something.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Are you god?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Encephalon

Are you god?

A Norse one, probably.

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Denicalis - The Norse god of facial hair, hooking up, and smiting emos.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Whenever I try to flirt it just gives off "creepy Asian dude" vibes. I think maybe I come off as too much of an innocent kid at first so it makes people uncomfortable when I get more playful later.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

You think -they're- the problem. They aren't.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said they're the problem. I just don't understand why girls are so unwilling to be upfront about things sometimes. If a girl doesn't want to date a guy, she should flat out tell him no rather then coming up with an excuse. Do they really think it's gonna hurt my feelings that bad if they're honest?

The only time I ever blame the girl is when they seem to have very bad judgement when it comes to who to date. Like a girl my friend liked who decided to go back to her ex boyfriend. An ex boyfriend who mooched on her for 2 years with no job, cheated on her, kicked down her door while drunk, and threatened to kill her. I don't care how good the guy is at "Playing the game" or whatever you want to call it. A girl has to be really stupid to go back to a guy that's got a high probability of murdering her.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

You're terrified of women, you have no confidence and you clearly aren't aggressive personalities. Now why, I wonder, would women have a problem finding a proper way to flirt with you? Maybe because women don't like spineless fucking ponces. Show a little goddamn initiative. Smile, tell a fucking JOKE. FLIRT FOR GOD'S SAKES. Do it for fun. I do it all the time. I flirt with my roommate when I get up in the morning, I flirt with people I work with, I flirt with my friend's girlfriends. Why? So that when I meet a girl I honest to god want to plow, I can turn on the charm like it's second nature. Because after a while, it bloody well is.

Now you're making assumptions. I flirt with girls, I tell jokes to girls. I have no problem getting girls to laugh. I've even had girls give me some really unexpected compliments. But the minute they realize I'm actually interested in them, they avoid me as though I had the plague or something.

I'm not sure how much of what you said was targeted at me. But since you quoted me, I felt the need to respond.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by DarkMageOzzie

I just don't understand why girls are so unwilling to be upfront about things sometimes. If a girl doesn't want to date a guy, she should flat out tell him no rather then coming up with an excuse. Do they really think it's gonna hurt my feelings that bad if they're honest?

No. This is the kind of thing that happens when you're already dating a woman (or girl, in your case) and she no longer wants to go out with you. This, of course, varies from person to person and, as it just so happens, you've probably run across the ones that don't want to fuck you anymore; simple as that.

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The only time I ever blame the girl is when they seem to have very bad judgement when it comes to who to date. Like a girl my friend liked who decided to go back to her ex boyfriend. An ex boyfriend who mooched on her for 2 years with no job, cheated on her, kicked down her door while drunk, and threatened to kill her. I don't care how good the guy is at "Playing the game" or whatever you want to call it. A girl has to be really stupid to go back to a guy that's got a high probability of murdering her.

I think you really need to look at the phrase you used "playing the game" more closely. This is exactly what it is: A game. A lot of women like to play the game by being coy about your advances while others are all over them and it's your part in the game to read those plays. As for you and your friend, I agree that a girl has to be fucking retarded to want to go back to her boyfriend if he's THAT abusive. If your friend is the one still chasing said retard after he knows of her tendencies then I don't know what to tell you. tellhimtokillhimself

It's kind of like finding the sucker at the poker table. If you can't tell who the sucker is, guess what? It's YOU.

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But the minute they realize I'm actually interested in them, they avoid me as though I had the plague or something.

Try harder, man. Not EVERY girl is going to be repulsed by you. (I hope for your sake)

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I'm not sure how much of what you said was targeted at me. But since you quoted me, I felt the need to respond.

He wasn't targeting you specifically, hence the phrase directly after your quoted post:

Originally Posted by Denicalis

And that, right there, sums up the problems you lot have with women.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Denicalis

Yes they fucking DO. YOU just can't read them.

Because they are not clear, hence my point.

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If you can master how to play Donkey Kong Country, you can learn how to play a woman

Using hand eye coordination and judging where the Bananas are located in a level has NOTHING in common with 'playing' a woman. They are entirely different 'games'. Seducing a woman is a fine art, donkey kong is a juvenile video-game.

Granted, I get the basic analogy you're trying to make (That if given time and practice you will become better at a skill and that it can apply to any sort of activity, video-games or getting women), but that above is a very poor example. No, I can't think of a better one right now before you ask.

Also, while reading the rest of your response, I realized my own problem as to why I am not very successful: I think too much about how I appear in her eyes, about how she views me. I know this is the problem and you'd think If I knew my problem I could overcome it, but Doing something is a lot different then talking about it.

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Now go away and stop being a douche bag. All of you.

Do as I say, not as I do?

Take a breather Deni, you'll pop a vein being so RAGE in this thread.

----

A small note: I had to rewrite this about 5 different times and I'm getting a headache from trying to cover all the angles of replying to possible responses to my own replies.

Well to make it simple then: I think men should try and understand the subtle signs given in flirting, and women should try and be more direct. I mean, hell, what's so bad about a woman approaching a guy first sometimes?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

Because they are not clear, hence my point.

Ever think that the problem isn't necessarily them, but yourself? Maybe?

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Using hand eye coordination and judging where the Bananas are located in a level has NOTHING in common with 'playing' a woman. They are entirely different 'games'. Seducing a woman is a fine art, donkey kong is a juvenile video-game.

I can't believe you just typed a whole paragraph in regards to the implication Deni made.

Seducing a woman is NOT a fucking fine art. Jesus CHRIST, where are you getting these crazy ideas. TALK TO HER. That's about as COMPLICATED AS IT GETS!

Quote:

Granted, I get the basic analogy you're trying to make (That if given time and practice you will become better at a skill and that it can apply to any sort of activity, video-games or getting women), but that above is a very poor example. No, I can't think of a better one right now before you ask.

Also, while reading the rest of your response, I realized my own problem as to why I am not very successful: I think too much about how I appear in her eyes, about how she views me. I know this is the problem and you'd think If I knew my problem I could overcome it, but Doing something is a lot different then talking about it.

How about this.

When you interact with a woman you like, treat her the same way you would anyone. Be kind, be friendly, be courteous. Women want to have genuine interaction - they don't want sniveling men who don't know how to communicate to up and rubbing their snot all over them. You need to be confident, and I think that's your major fuck up right there.

Women pick up on "weirdo" behavior. You don't want to be perceived as a weirdo, do you?

Think about how Deni would do it. I imagine Deni would just walk right up to a woman he rather liked, and start a conversation about something with her. That way, both parties get a little insight into what the other person is like.

You're not failing because women "aren't blunt" or "direct." You're failing because you're not communicating as well as you should be.

Put down the goddamn video game controller and TALK TO WOMEN.

You're not ordering a fucking burger at Wendy's, here - why would you expect that kind of "drive-up" communication with a woman?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Ever think that the problem isn't necessarily them, but yourself? Maybe?

I knew I'd get something like this in response, but I honestly can't think of a witty snappy comeback to that kind of question. I do see my own shortcomings as a part of the problem, but any response I expect people to likely pigeon hole it down to either SHE'S the problem 100% or I'M the problem 100%, and I don't think that's necessarily entirely true. I've made errors before and I'm sure they have too. After all we are but merely human.

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I can't believe you just typed a whole paragraph in regards to the implication Deni made.

Seducing a woman is NOT a fucking fine art. Jesus CHRIST, where are you getting these crazy ideas. TALK TO HER. That's about as COMPLICATED AS IT GETS!

I didn't mean fine art as in a painting or classical music. It was a way to say that compared to the basic skills necessary to play a video game, romancing a woman is a lot more involved and requires a delicate touch, COMPARED to a video game it is LIKE a fine art. Maybe I should have used a different metaphor.

On the second part: You say just Talk to her huh? Well... I've been 'talking' to several women for a while now, but given the lack of intimacy and continued friendly relations (with some flirting here and there), I'm probably saying the wrong thing, aha ha. Ehh but pay it no matter, I get your point. I need to stop over thinking the situation, along with...

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You need to be confident, and I think that's your major fuck up right there.

I can't really argue against that.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Dark Nation

I knew I'd get something like this in response, but I honestly can't think of a witty snappy comeback to that kind of question. I do see my own shortcomings as a part of the problem, but any response I expect people to likely pigeon hole it down to either SHE'S the problem 100% or I'M the problem 100%, and I don't think that's necessarily entirely true. I've made errors before and I'm sure they have too. After all we are but merely human.

Well, I don't know you, so I can't say it's either party's fault with 100% certainty.

I just know that you blaming her for not being direct is you nailing yourself into your own coffin.

We're all human, and not perfect. People fuck up. But don't blame women for not walking right up to you and asking if you want to go out. There's some give and take involved. And that's called "communicating."

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I didn't mean fine art as in a painting or classical music. It was a way to say that compared to the basic skills necessary to play a video game, romancing a woman is a lot more involved and requires a delicate touch, COMPARED to a video game it is LIKE a fine art. Maybe I should have used a different metaphor.

Well, the metaphor is most fitting here. On a gaming forum. On the internet.

I think you see where I am going with it.

But regardless of your very funny metaphor, if you don't have the ability to talk to a woman like she's a glass vase that cracks if you speak too loud, find a more sturdy vase. (what the fuck kind of women are you trying to woo? Maybe your problem is that you're treating them like some kind of delicate flower? I couldn't say. I don't like it when men act differently around me - they're not being genuine if they're pussy-footing.)

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On the second part: You say just Talk to her huh? Well... I've been 'talking' to several women for a while now, but given the lack of intimacy and continued friendly relations (with some flirting here and there), I'm probably saying the wrong thing, aha ha. Ehh but pay it no matter, I get your point. I need to stop over thinking the situation, along with...

Well, again. How are you communicating?

You know that "friend zone?" You're placing yourself there. Most men do without even knowing it. You talk to a woman. Be yourself.

I used to tell a few of my friends who are male and aren't attracted to me (but we're good pals) that they should just pretend the girl they were interested is me. And talk to her like they would talk to me. Casual. Genuine. Honest. Don't treat her like a glass vase. Most of my buddies are usually really, really great people - but they hide underneath a really thick mask for some reason when it comes to women they're attracted to.

Women can sense that. And if you come across as that sort of guy, you get put on the "friends" list.

Be assertive. If you like yourself, you should have no trouble being yourself in front of an attractive female.

FELIPE NO

Once again, Sass speaks the truth. You know I can slightly emphasize with some of the things that Dark Nation & Darkmage Ozzie are saying, because to be honest I use to be like that.

The fact that it took a long time for me to be involved with someone and I always thought it was the women's fault for the main reason why I was single, but as I got older I managed to get out of that mentality pretty fast. As people have said if you like somebody than go up and talk to them, its as simple as that. Using an excuse as silly as you can't read their signals is incredibly poor. I discovered that the hard way. You know I'll be incredibly honest, I don't have much confidence, but that never stopped me in expressing interest in someone I was attracted to. I choose not to be as upfront and blunt as Denicalis and other members on this site, but it tends to be a slow going process, but by the end of it, I know if there is going to something more to this or if I gained another friend.

You know what, your not going to avoid signals or subtle hints even if your in a relationship whether your going out with a man or woman. It is always going to exist. There is no fun in a relationship if you have a fucking road map that dictates what you should be like or what to do when your involved with your significant other.

Over time I managed to become more aware of female body language, and I can be a bit slow, I probably missed out on some opportunities in my life, but I don't fucking regret it. I deal with it and move on.

Personally I'm not a big fan of women giving signals or subtle hints, but whatever I deal with it. My fiance gives me subtle hints, but at least I've been with her long enough to fucking pick up on it.

When it comes to dating, don't make childish excuses about how you can't find anybody. Don't expect an opportunity to fall in your lap, if you want to be with somebody at least put in some fucking effort.

From my personal opinion, Denicalis tends to be a little bit more dedicated to this subject is that every so often, somebody comes into the advice colum complaining about their relationship or the fact they can't be with anybody and it usually comes down to the same conclusion, making poor excuses because your afraid to be rejected and your trying to find a trick or a sure fire way to know if he or she is into you. Its not rocket science, just talk to them. Overall, I can't speak for him that is just through my observations.

In terms of the article itself, as Lehah as said, it is just a waste of time, I guess a whole bunch of people got bored and just decided this tidbit of information would be relevant in terms of explaining male to female bonding.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

I should sell fucking books on tape or something.

I honestly think if you did, you'd have a whole group of people weep all at once, but it could drastically decline the amount of emo kids.

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Originally Posted by Angel Of Light

every so often, somebody comes into the advice colum complaining about their relationship or the fact they can't be with anybody and it usually comes down to the same conclusion, making poor excuses because your afraid to be rejected and your trying to find a trick or a sure fire way to know if he or she is into you.

This nailed it. You guys are making excuses for your ignorance and incompetence, while getting defensive because someone noticed you're not all that good with women. No one thinks you're a bad person because you haven't yet learned how to be comfortable around women, but at the same time, no one wants to coddle your ass here because that comfort zone of blaming the woman for your incompetence with them is what's holding you back.

Look here. Dark Nation, the reason why people blame you instead of the woman is because you said yourself that you've tried to make it with several broads but you haven't been successful with any. Occam's razor says something's wrong with your approach, not that each one of these disparate women are... I'm not even sure what you're suggesting that they are. Oblivious? Kindly not interested in you?

When Sass talks about the 'friend zone', she's not saying you can't make it with a friend, but that you haven't shown this broad that you're interested in her as anything more than a friend. Maybe you should try pushing it harder than you have currently. Being comfortable around women, getting them interested in you as a person is only the first step, and just mastering that one step won't get you anything other than friends.

Darkmageozzie, blow your defensive bullshit out your ass. You have no right to say that anyone's putting words in your mouth when you go on at length about how women have some sort of entitlement issue that they won't flat out say the word 'no' when you ask them out. When you say things like 'women are obsessed with making men ask them out', that says that you're a coward and you've never impressed a woman enough that she would want to spend quality time with you. Reading your posts, I don't blame them one bit.

You're an asshole who thinks you deserve a girlfriend because you can make nice with broads now and then. Your example of 'the kind of women you blame' being a classic Nice Guy strawman made me laugh. What do you blame her for, that she's in her romantic relations willingly? I don't think anyone doesn't, but look at how defensive you get when someone blames you for being in your romantic relations willingly. What, you're not good enough to take your own medicine? Quit with the loser denial and maybe you'll be on the first step in becoming someone tolerable enough to be around.

Was that direct enough for you?

How ya doing, buddy?

Awesome! This has now turned into TQP material. Enjoy your beers~

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by a lucca

Darkmageozzie, blow your defensive bullshit out your ass. You have no right to say that anyone's putting words in your mouth when you go on at length about how women have some sort of entitlement issue that they won't flat out say the word 'no' when you ask them out. When you say things like 'women are obsessed with making men ask them out', that says that you're a coward and you've never impressed a woman enough that she would want to spend quality time with you. Reading your posts, I don't blame them one bit.

You're an asshole who thinks you deserve a girlfriend because you can make nice with broads now and then. Your example of 'the kind of women you blame' being a classic Nice Guy strawman made me laugh. What do you blame her for, that she's in her romantic relations willingly? I don't think anyone doesn't, but look at how defensive you get when someone blames you for being in your romantic relations willingly. What, you're not good enough to take your own medicine? Quit with the loser denial and maybe you'll be on the first step in becoming someone tolerable enough to be around.

Was that direct enough for you?

Ouch.

For the record I only mentioned the guys having to ask girls out thing, because I know plenty of girls who wouldn't ask a guy out because it's supposedly not socially acceptable for a girl to ask a guy out. And honestly I've always hated people who worry about what society thinks. Unless you're doing something that really is wrong, who cares what society thinks?

But no, honestly I never really ment that a girl should ask me out. It was more of a general statement.

As for the saying no thing. I only ever bring that up because at least two girls, who I cared alot about gave me answers that led me to believe they'd date me later. And I didn't realize till suddenly they were dating someone else that they had no intention of doing so. Why would someone do that? Especially to someone they claim is their friend? I'd realize this kinda crap right away now, but there are plenty of guys who wouldn't.

That's about all I have to say, because even if I wanted to argue with you, which I don't... I know I'd just end up looking like a fool.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Maybe they just wanted to go to lunch. You can have a lunch or dinner date without actually going on a date date! That even extends to going out and doing fun things like movies. Or they might have just decided you were a dumb snot after getting to know you a little better.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by a lucca

This nailed it. You guys are making excuses for your ignorance and incompetence, while getting defensive because someone noticed you're not all that good with women. No one thinks you're a bad person because you haven't yet learned how to be comfortable around women, but at the same time, no one wants to coddle your ass here because that comfort zone of blaming the woman for your incompetence with them is what's holding you back.

Look here. Dark Nation, the reason why people blame you instead of the woman is because you said yourself that you've tried to make it with several broads but you haven't been successful with any. Occam's razor says something's wrong with your approach, not that each one of these disparate women are... I'm not even sure what you're suggesting that they are. Oblivious? Kindly not interested in you?

When Sass talks about the 'friend zone', she's not saying you can't make it with a friend, but that you haven't shown this broad that you're interested in her as anything more than a friend. Maybe you should try pushing it harder than you have currently. Being comfortable around women, getting them interested in you as a person is only the first step, and just mastering that one step won't get you anything other than friends.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I JUST GOT TOLD!

Ahh but jokes aside I'm glad for your and Sass's insights, because as much as I'd hate to admit, I only seem to have peripheral vision when it comes to seeing the obvious. Perhaps I am the oblivious one. I've taken note and tried to start applying this advice I've been given, but it will take time, and surely more... I mean... I'll need to have a CLEARER observation on things, and not just romantic pursuits either.

Exciting times.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I think we all need to go watch The 40-Year Old Virgin again, and then I scream...

A-HEM

Pussy on the pedestal.

Remember this: pretty girls are pretty girls. They're still flesh and blood and human. If you shoot them then they bleed. Stop treating them like they're some crazy untouchable breed of human and they might, you know, want to know you better, too. If you talk to them, nine times out of ten, they will talk back.

As for the last one tenth that don't want to talk...it ain't over yet. Assuming the ratio of humans is split between bother genders equally, you still have three billion to get through before you are allowed to lose all hope.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Agreed with Encephelon...this is quite the TQP thread now. I was sure there was a thread called 'Nice Guys vs Bad Boys' or something like that in there....

You don't need to be a 'bad boy' to be able to 'read' women, nor are you totally socially inept at interacting with women if you are a 'nice guy'.

It all depends on the kind of relationship you're after. Once you know THAT, you'll know how to be able to talk to women better. The thing I find fuckin hilarious with nerdy young'un nice guys is that when they say they want a girlfriend, they usually mean they wanna fuck a chick, and they try about changing themselves into 'bad boys' to get some pussy.

I know I did. And I know quite a few of my friends who are attempting to do the same thing, and I'm trying to steer them away from it, because it's stupid.

Just be yourself, and not a wannabe sleaze. OMG SHE LOOKED AT ME AND SMILED SHE WANTS TO FUCK ME BAAAAAD *plays world of warcraft furiously*

I'm not the best at interpreting signals, but no one is ever really perfect at human interaction anyway, so the fact that the study is blaming men for misinterpreting women especially when they only surveyed what...280 guys and girls?....is severly underestimating the power of human interaction.

FELIPE NO