[General Discussion] Everything turning Action/RPG: FF, DQ, Shining Force, etc

Why is everything defying it's roots and turning into Action-RPG?

The last normal Final Fantasy game with random battles was 10 (or X-2).
I don't understand why they felt the need to change that forever to action/rpg.

The last great Dragon Quest was 8, and we all heard 9 for the DS will be an online action/rpg. DQ is my favorite classic RPG series of all time, but it is becoming not classic with its changes.

Shining Force is a tactical RPG series like FF Tactics. It existed before FF Tactics did! It perfected the strategy/movement type of game. And now Shining Force Neo and Exa are out and they are 100% hack & slash games.

Can anyone come up with more series that have done this?

I don't hate action RPG's or anything... it is just my least favorite type of RPG. I like random battles or strategy movement games much more. I wish everything had stayed inside of its roots and the only action RPGs we saw were from other companies making them as usual.

Because of growing action RPGs, there is less variety now. We have to look to the classics to play the good stuff.

What is your opinion?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

After being spoiled by FFXII, I don't think I could ever go back to random battles, ever again. I never realized how annoying it was until I had something to compare it against.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I just want to add to this talk that FF12 was a pretty fun game. To repeat: I dont HATE action RPGs.

I definitely like FF1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 better than 12 though.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Honestly, it really depends on how it's done. I used to be a fan of turn-based battle systems. In fact, I still am, but games like FFXII and Tales of the Abyss is showing me how, if done right, action RPGs can be just as good too. I can't say the same about KH though.

Companies are still making games based on both systems, so I'm cool.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

FF12 is an example of a game done very well but variety could be killed and action RPGs could be all that we are left with as the years pass by.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I played the demo of FFXII and wasn't impressed at all by the battle system. I am a big fan of Tri-Ace and their implementation of action elements into their battle systems. So it depends on the game, really. I am starting to find turn based battle systems without solid implementation quite a bore though (not that I ever didn't).

The Shining games really have me confused, since it felt like they were really elusive as SRPG's and then once the series gets revived, it changes roots completely (and I haven't really liked what I've seen too much).

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Personally, I really liked Shining Force Neo. I also hate FFXII, and IMO it's not even much of a real time battle system. Sure you can run around, but when you do a action, it becomes a turn based system. Also implimenting a battle system that was made for a MMORPG into a offline game was the stupidest thing about it IMO. Battle systems for MMORPGs tend to be too simple, and that works for those kinds of games, but for a offline RPG, HECK NO!

Like most others, i'm a HUGE fan of Tri Ace's real time battle systems in their past games. I recently have been enjoying Devil Summoner's battle system. I guess I could say i'm more into real time now since turn based games these days tend to be lacking.

FELIPE NO

FFXII was a little hard for to get used to at first, but I like it now. Kingdom Hearts didn't do it as well as FFXII, it was still enjoyable but didn't seem as polished as FFXII.

I never realised how random the fights were in the other games until I played FFXII. I don't think I'll be going back to any game that uses this battle system for a while, with the exception of FFVI, I've still to finish that one.

How ya doing, buddy?

Random Battles were done out of NESSESITY, as hardware limitations prevented the enemy from always being there on the screen. Only for important bosses and character battles did the enemy show up on the 'overworld' screen.

But, with technology improving, Random Battles became more of a tradition then limitations on any part by the system. One of the first popular RPGs with overworld enemies was Chrono Cross, and it might have been ahead of its time in that respect. A good segway between both systems I found was in Tales of Symphonia, where the enemies appeared on the overworld map, but were indigiuishable black blobs, so even though you could see the enemy approaching, you had no idea what you were fighting, so it was still random.

FFXII then introduced us to enemies who not only appeared on screen before battle, but there was no visible transition between walking around and "zomg enemy!".

Think of it as a natual progression of the genre. In a couple years a new style of play will develop and then as all genres do, there will be immitations of that style. Not exclusive to RPGs either: Think of the Term "GTA Clone", with rival games borrowing from GTA's open ended gameplay style.

Given that the Flagship DQIX will appear on the DS, and Revenant Wings being on there as well, Tactics Style of battle may make a resurgance on Handhelds, and a closer approach to "Real-Time" RPG action will develop with FFXIII (Or so the battle system descriptions have implied).

But considering Tales of Symphonia and Tri-Ace themselves for a moment, while the mechanics of enemies might change, there was a wholy different style of battle within that company's titles as well (Star Ocean 2, 3), and even though the battles were still Random to a degree, there was still a vibrant difference in how those titles handled things versus the Final Fantasies... SO, things may go completely different from what I stated above and some other method of battle may develop independantly or be taken from another Genre.

Genres evolve, and so life will continue.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Borg1982

I just want to add to this talk that FF12 was a pretty fun game. To repeat: I dont HATE action RPGs.

I definitely like FF1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 better than 12 though.

Seconded. I've never played 12, but it's just really odd to me. I'm used to the random battles. ATB might become a thing of the past if Square makes everything else like 12.

Action RPGs aren't all that bad. Seiken Densetsu 3, Legend of Mana, Tales of Phantasia, all of these were excellent Action RPGs that I've played, but I don't think Action RPGs should replace the original turn-based RPGs. Final Fantasy especially, I would have preferred to stay the way that Final Fantasy IV - IX were made. The same, familiar gameplay, with different, but equally excellent, characters, story and setting, and underlying battle system (Espers in VI, Classes in V, Junctions in VIII).

As far as strategy RPGs go, I love most of them. Though good ones are becoming few and far between. Shining Force I and II were quite good games, shame I never got to play Shining Force III (no Saturn). Final Fantasy Tactics ranks as one of my all time favorites among Strategy RPGs, and pretty high in just RPGs alone. Fire Emblem is the only other strategical RPG that I played, and even then, it was only Fire Emblem 4, and hell, even that kicked a lot of ass. But outside of those, there's very little in the Strategy RPG genre (I mean turn based anyway, real time strategy is a different story). I think I'd probably like Disgaea/Disgaea II, but I don't own a Playstation 2, so that's out of the question for me.

That being said, I really do hope that the old style RPG as perfected by Squaresoft through their 6 Final Fantasy games (IV - IX) will stick around. Those games, while not nearly as exciting as some action RPGs, are still good fun, and I can still play them even after any amount of prior playthroughs.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Sometimes I think that there are more Action-RPG's these days than turn-based ones, and that worries me because I don't play games to feel like I'm on edge and will lose if I don't react quickly. I also lack manual dexterity in general. So that's why a trend towards more action elements in RPG's isn't for me. But I think it's for the masses, and that's why it's happening. Or is it?

It probably is.

However, FFXII wasn't an Action-RPG. I thought I wouldn't like it, but I do. It doesn't make me rush around to connect attacks or dodge enemies. I could live with that type of turn-based battle system in every RPG from now on. I'd like to see a return to more cinematic displays in battle, though. For example, a close-up shot of a character when a magic spell is cast or a technique is used in FFXII would have looked cool.

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It depends on how the rest of the battle system is designed. Turn-based and action can be enjoyable depending on what the game is. I find turn-based RPGs more fun if I'm able to have a variety of attacks and spells to choose from, and if the battles remain challenging even with so many abilities. On the other hand, as long as battles in action RPGs aren't too slow or move too fast, I don't mind them. I seem to remember that Star Ocean 3 had action battles that had a good speed.

How ya doing, buddy?

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner is another example of an action RPG tossed into a long-running series of random battles and the usual "line up and fight" style. I haven't played it yet myself, but supposedly it's pretty good.

Random battles get a lot of flack these days, but I still enjoy the old system. It has a nostalgic feel to it, and there are so many different variations and twists that can be added to it. Going back to SMT, press turns and weaknesses determining the number of attacks you got per round added a lot of strategy to some of the difficult bosses. Shadow Hearts: Covenant used the old turn-based for attacks, but also made your characters' positions on the battle field important if you wanted to attack several enemies at once. RPGs with turn-based random battles don't have to remain as simplistic as the old Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games.

That's not to say that they're any better than action RPGs though. Games like Secret of Mana with seamless combat are a lot of fun and don't have all the loading to sit through. I haven't played FF XII yet, and I'm not exactly desperate to do so, but my problem with it is the lack of doing anything at all in combat outside of a little menu usage. MMORPGs have more going on in battle than FF XII did.

I like the growing trend of games that mix turn-based and action. Most people have already mentioned Valkyrie Profile 2 and the Tales series, but they really are a great blend of action and the old ways. I definitely don't want to see the traditional turn-based style disappear, but action RPGs keep the genre from becoming too monotonous.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I realize DQ1 & FF1 (for example) used random battles because of hardware limitations... but there is a reason why with FFX they kept it the same. The ATB system works.. and really well. When you are inside of a battle you have to come up with a strategy to win. Further, not knowing how many battles will appear in a cave or when they will come exactly is more exciting, thus random battles being exciting.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Manny Biggz

Personally, I really liked Shining Force Neo. I also hate FFXII, and IMO it's not even much of a real time battle system. Sure you can run around, but when you do a action, it becomes a turn based system. Also implimenting a battle system that was made for a MMORPG into a offline game was the stupidest thing about it IMO. Battle systems for MMORPGs tend to be too simple, and that works for those kinds of games, but for a offline RPG, HECK NO!

The simple fact that it is based on an MMORPG battle system does not automatically make it stupid. IMO, the real beauty of FFXII's battle system shows when fighting truly intense battles such as the battle with Yiazmat. Or Ultima, or Omega. Just imagine trying to manage such battles without your gambits, in real time!

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek

The simple fact that it is based on an MMORPG battle system does not automatically make it stupid. IMO, the real beauty of FFXII's battle system shows when fighting truly intense battles such as the battle with Yiazmat. Or Ultima, or Omega. Just imagine trying to manage such battles without your gambits, in real time!

FF XII's battle system looks like it's very intense during boss battles, but it should shine in regular fights too. Just because random battles can become tedious doesn't mean I want a system where all I have to do is stand around and gather up treasure while tossing the occassional healing item. It feels like more of a cop-out rather than finding new ways to make the ATB system the FF series has always used more interesting.

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I'm a big fan of Action elements in RPG games, so the migration towards Action/RPG gets no complaints from me. Rather, there have been games I've played recently that I feel could've worked a lot better if they were given action elements.

Ar Tonelico: The game itself was easy up until the final chapter, and I can count the number of times my Reyvateil took damage throughout the entire game on one hand. If the battles had some sort of action element to them, it would've made the game a lot more challenging. Think if an enemy lept over you to go attack the Reyvateil, and you'd have to rush to save her before she suffered any damage.

Yggdra Union is an excellent game in itself, but sometimes watching the battles play out and hope your units survive can be sort of dull. A better, more involved way to do the battles would be allowing the player to control the head of the unit while the generic ones were controlled by AI. I guess it'd take a but more work to program the AI so that you couldn't unconditionally win every single fight by mashing attack buttons, but the payoff would mean a lot more excitement in the fights.

I'm currently playing through Rogue Galaxy, and I feel the game combines action elements with random battles effectively. They pop up randomly, but the entire fight takes place in real time. Fights aren't necessarily easy, either, so there's still an element of challenge.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Quote:

FF XII's battle system looks like it's very intense during boss battles, but it should shine in regular fights too.

Oh, it does, especially when there is a ton of a certain enemy, such as the Baknamy or Urutan-Yensa.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Quote:

Dark Nation
One of the first popular RPGs with overworld enemies was Chrono Cross, and it might have been ahead of its time in that respect.

Lufia and Romancing Saga were doing this years before the Playstation even existed. Chrono Cross wasn't ahead of its time so much as every other RPG was/is behind the times. Random battles after the NES were an exercise in laziness and convenience, rather than a necessity. It's absolutely shameful that you still have RPGs doing this on the PS2 and beyond.

I like action RPGs, but I don't like them all to be action style. Especially when you have popular series suddenly changing styles on you. Shining Force worked just fine the way it was, and the series is dead to me now. Truth be told, most RPG series are dead to me now. I know I'm on the extreme end of things, but this trend towards all action, all the time is the reason I rarely ever buy RPGs anymore.

The biggest complaint? They never bother to code in anything resembling competent AI for your allies. The few times they have, the feature is gone in the sequel. Kingdom Hearts 2, looking at you. The AI programming in FF12 admittedly sounds pretty slick, but I'm avoiding that game for multiple reasons.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Yeah an action RPG fan here, but in a very loose way. I'm an action nut who appreciates a good story and little itty bitty customisation. Onimusha 3 and the Castleroid games are the finest examples of my style.

I welcome the traditional action-RPG too, but I'd hate to see well-loved franchises all turn this way and blow up the genre to FPS proportions. And wrt FF12, how is this action-RPG? If you don't need to input an action to get a reaction on the other end, it is not an action-RPG. Heck I wouldn't even call it a 'real' game. Interactivity is where it's at.

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Originally Posted by Monkey King

Lufia and Romancing Saga were doing this years before the Playstation even existed. Chrono Cross wasn't ahead of its time so much as every other RPG was/is behind the times.

I guess my memory betrays me ¯\(º_o)/¯

and from reading the last few posts, I think we need to redefine/clarify the definition of Action-RPG.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I've always enjoyed action based RPGs a bit more than traditional RPGs if only because of my preference for action and platforming games. I think one reason of the increase in action RPGs is that RPGs are alot more dominant on the market now a days and more people are playing them. So they can draw in more gamers to thier games the probably make action RPGs that are more alike other games that aren't neccisarily RPGs. I mean, would Kingdom Hearts have as huge of a fan base if it was done in more traditional style?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?