Harry Potter and the Last Book (Now with Discussion of Books 1-6!!)

Dear God, this spoiler tagging is killing me.

Oh, and Nagini's not in the game anymore. Dumbledore says "I think we can rule out Nagini" right before their last adventure.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Murdercrow

Spoiler:

You both FAIL. Two words: Unbreakable Vow. Snape had to prevent Draco from fucking up his mission (killing Dumbledore) and carrying it out for him if need be. How is Snape purposely killing the wrong person and letting Dumbledore live NOT failing to hold up the vow? Since Snape didn't die while fleeing Hogwarts, and presumeably afterwards, Snape had to have killed Dumbledore.

I say we get rid of spoilers, is everyone ok with that ?

Spoiler:

I had always thought that the Unbreakable Vow was to do whatever he could to protect Draco. I haven't read it so it came out, though, so I am probably mistaken. Actually, having just looked it up, you are correct and Snape was to take up Draco's task if failed to do so. The thing is, though, that Draco never technically failed to complete his task. Sure, he was taking his time and it looked as if he was putting down his wand, but the opportunity for him to complete it was still there. It also seemed as if Snape had no idea what Draco's task was when he had made the vow, either.

Thinking about the Vow, though, Changes some things. It adds another dimension to Snape's thinking that I had not thought about. It seems more simple to think that he had to do it or else face death himself. I just prefer to think that I am wrong about Snape and there was a reason Dumbledore trusted him.

Most amazing jew boots

PLEASE get rid of spoilers. If you don't want to be spoiled, what are you doing in a book discussion thread?

- WraithTwo -

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Spoiler:

Technically, we were never told the limits of the Unbreakable Vow. I mean, how long would Snape have gotten to kill him? And at that time, couldn't he just be like, "Oh, I haven't got around to it yet"? And the "task" was never stated explicitly, while Narcissa was referring to killing Dumbledore, Snape might have been thinking of something else. (I know its not likely, I'm just trying to point out that so much was implicitly understood about the Unbreakable Vow!)

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Zephos

Dear God, this spoiler tagging is killing me.

I'm with you. I think it's a safe assumption that if a person reads this thread he/she is expecting to see people discussing "spoilers." The spoiler tags shouldn't be necessary here.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I doubt that it was Draco's task to kill Dumbledore, I mean, how could a whiny little kid kill even make a scratch on the greatest wizard of that age? His task was using the cupboard thing to get the Death Eaters inside Hogwarts. If the task is the only thing the unbreakable vow was about, Snape wasn't forced to kill Dumbledore, and he did it out of his own free will.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Enkidu

I doubt that it was Draco's task to kill Dumbledore, I mean, how could a whiny little kid kill even make a scratch on the greatest wizard of that age?

That was the point, he was supposed to fail and be killed by Dumbledore/The Order to attone for Lucius's mistake in the previous book. It was Voldemort's revenge, that's why Draco was selected for the task, and thats why Narcissa was so upset about it and asked Snape for help. Snape told Narcissa that the Dark Lord was indeed angry at Lucius, and that he probably did intend for Snape to complete the task in the end, but was determined that Draco should try.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Exactly, and in the off-chance that Draco succeeded in his task, Voldemort would have a formidable new Death Eater in the ranks. He couldn't lose.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Enkidu

If the task is the only thing the unbreakable vow was about, Snape wasn't forced to kill Dumbledore, and he did it out of his own free will.

SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE?! NO!! YOU BITCH, YOU BITCH.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Yeah same thing happened to m-- oh, oh.......... OH, YOU'RE JOKING AREN'T YOU, OH, heh heh heh, that's a good one

But we need to take into account that the vow was made at the beginning of the year. Snape could've made the vow to avoid suspicion in the eyes of the Death Eaters, as i remember, he was reluctant to go through with it. The vow was to be executed at the end of the year. Snape and Dumbledore had a whole year to go over what would happen, and how they could make this work for the Order.

A possibility.

How ya doing, buddy?

See, that's what I think could have happened, too. If Snape really was on the Order's side, he would have told Dumbledore and they would have figured out a way to get it to work for them. Still, that's assuming Snape really is trustworthy. Way to make it amgibuous Jo.

On another note, did anyoen take the W.O.M.B.A.T. test on JKR's site? Anyone think that the test will have any significance to the seventh book? Maybe something Harry can take that will allow him to use magic outside of school even if he doesn't graduate from Hogwarts? The things that she puts behind that door usually have some sort of purpose.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I'd argue against that. Usually whatever's behind the door is something to make fans whet their pants with excitement. I think it's just a fun thing for us to do while waiting for the next book. It's less painful than tiny clues.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Actually, someone around me wonders if there isn't some polyjuice potion under that. He says that after dumbledore's death, harry isn't instantly unfrozen. If i remember well, it is said that he's frozen by terror...

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Hmm, I once visited a website called something like www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com, and the author had some good arguments. One I remember clear is this: We've encountered Avada Kadavra some times now. Fake-Moody on a spider, Wormtail on Cedric... It is described as a green flash, and then the targeted person just falls over. However, when Snape uses it, Dumbledore is flung from the tower. The actual force sends him flying. Why? The author's guess? Since non verbal spells played a pretty large part in 6, chances are that while Snape said Avada, he thought something else. All smoke and mirrors. It would also fit the phoenix associations coming from the casket erupting into flames and such. I could actually see Dumbledore coming out of this alive.

FELIPE NO

dude dumbledore is dead. snape is just so badass that when he did the abracadabra instant death he blasted him over the balcony. dumbledore has to be dead in the same way that obi wan kenobi and yoda had to die before luke skywalker could be a man and face vader on his own. this kinda thing is a constant theme through literature.

I'm guessing that Dumbledore was cool with Snape killing him. Mid way through book 6, Dumbledore and Snape are having an argument about something but it never really explains what. I think in this instance the big D knows of the plot to have Malfoy kill him, and he would rather Snape do it than put blood on Malfoy's hands. Plus too then it would look as though Snape has shown ultimate allegience to V, putting him in the perfect position to set up a betrayal and let Harry hit a homerun.

Other evidence that points toward Dumbledore being ok with Snape bliKsmacking him is in his last words. All he says is "Severus please" not, "please don't" but just "please." He could mean, "ok, dude, just do it." *(yah, i know this has been previously stated in the thread)

It's not like Dumbledore is out of the picture... (no pun intended) because they'll be a painting of him in his office at Hogwarts. Or maybe he'll reveal himself to Harry through those little chocolate frog trading cards.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Two other things definetly make me believe that Snape killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore's own orders. First, Dumbledore's pleading for his own life would be wildly out of character. Secondly, Snape's rage after Harry calling him a coward for Dumbledore's murder was uncharacteristic. Over the last several pages he had been taunting and tormenting Potter, in the same was that Snape always has.

"Kill me then," panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. "Kill me like you killed him, you coward -"
"DON'T-" screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them - "CALL ME COWARD!"

Does that sound more like Snape wanted to kill Dumbledore? J.K. wants you to think that his anger is toward the accusation of him being a coward, but why would he react in such a way when in other situations, words roll right off of him?

However, being called a coward after doing the hardest thing you've ever done in your life (murdering the only person that trusts you), an act that would require a great amount of BRAVERY would anger anyone.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

It's been a while since I've read the 6th book but weren't there times throughout the book that showed Snape and Dumbledore arguing with Dumbledore telling Snape he had to do something? I don't know, as soon as i read the death scene I thought Snape was acting out DUmbledore's orders.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Kilroy

Hmm, I once visited a website called something like www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com, and the author had some good arguments. One I remember clear is this: We've encountered Avada Kadavra some times now. Fake-Moody on a spider, Wormtail on Cedric... It is described as a green flash, and then the targeted person just falls over. However, when Snape uses it, Dumbledore is flung from the tower. The actual force sends him flying. Why? The author's guess? Since non verbal spells played a pretty large part in 6, chances are that while Snape said Avada, he thought something else. All smoke and mirrors. It would also fit the phoenix associations coming from the casket erupting into flames and such. I could actually see Dumbledore coming out of this alive.

Cheers for the link. Some good reading and theorizing without having to wade through "OMG DUMLEDOR NOT DED?" threads everywhere else.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I'm not buying it. Jo isn't exactly the queen of consistency when it comes to minor things only rabid fans would notice - such as the physics of the Avada Kedavra curse. After all, Apparition is sometimes signalled by a small pop, others a loud crack and presumably often a small explosion.

I'm personally more interested in finding out what it was that Dumbledore re-lived when he drank the green potion. Jo said in the Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview that Dumbledore's past is part of the final book.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I know I'm late on this thread but just to say, WOOO I love Harry Potter! :biggrin: *grin*

Zephos, one of my theories is that the things that Dumbledore may have relived could be similar to the things that people like Harry, Hagrid and Mrs Weasley see when faced with Boggarts and Dementors: Family and friends dying or the deaths and pains of loved ones and people that they have tried to protect. It is possible that Dumbledore even envisioned Harry failing his task.

Like people have said, I think we sould face the fact that Dumbledore is VERY dead.
JKR has left numerous hints, the most well know being in PS/SS:
"To the well prepared mind, death is but the next great adventure"
Dumbledore is not afraid of dying and being a brave and wise Gryffindor, he knows perfectly well that there are worse things that death, and would gladly die if this would be for the greater good, to help to win the war.

I think Dumbledore's death may have taught Harry a lesson:
"He must abandon forever the illusion he ought to have lost at the age of one: the shelter of a parents arms meant that nothing could hurt him"
By Dumbledore dying, Harry need to learn that he has to control his temper, use his love, and learn not to depend on the help of others. If Dumbledore suddenly came back from the dead, this would completely destroy Harry.

We see in book 6 that Dumbledore is getting weaker. He knows that Snape is more valuable. The wizarding world can do without Dumbledore now, but Snape and Harry are indispensible still.

Just thought I'd express my views here too..lol

I was speaking idiomatically.

i enjoyed the last book a lot. but it wasn't as good as the 4th one which was the best for me! the 5th was the worst but it still is a GREAT book.

now the six was so sad and depressing and it shocks to the point that you can't wait for the final book to go out. it keeps you wanting it SO SO SO badly.

Harry started a little kid with no experience in book one. now he is a grown up man facing A LOT of stuff in his life...through out the 6 books we have seen him evolve and this evolution is something JK Rowling knows how to show!

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?