Theological Discussion

I just want to insert a comment, and that is that we are not 100% sure that this is really the case. There are things hinted at here and there throughout the books of the prophets which suggest some sort of falling out, and there really is nothing in the bible to contradict what Minion is saying, but it certainly is not blatantly said in scripture. What IS clearly said though is that satan's desire is to oppose and attempt to thwart God.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Fyodor - I was taught that Satan was a fallen angel. I don't know what Bible you're reading.

Well, that is generally what is understood. There are many references in Isaiah to "the morning star" that had fallen, and taken 1/3 of the heavens with it.
As far as I am aware, however, the details of what went on are not too precisely known, seeing as how the books of the prophets had a tendency to be poetic and allegorical.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

What jokes?

Are you seriously refusing to tell me about Satan? I want to know why he decided to storm off like a baby and pitch his own camp just to piss of God.

What kinds of morals does Satan uphold?

Seriously. He's a part of Christianity. Why can't you tell me about him? ;_;

(I am being 100% serious)

Unfortunately, this is where we are not too certain. I personally do not think that satan has any morals, except that which will benefit him.
What we do know is that satan is a very attractive being, the most beautiful in fact. However, he desires to try and overthrow God, or at least did. Since he obviously cannot do that, and also disobeyed God in the process, he is no longer worthy to be amongst God, and was cast off forever.
I have often wondered about how this works out though. Like in the movie "Dogma," one of the characters in the beginning is lamenting how if the angels fall, there is no forgiveness for them like there is for humans. It is a very challenging question, and one that I do not think will be answered with any amount of certainty.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

So is that, like, his only REALLY BAD trait? I thought there were seven of those horrific sins. He's not, like,a fat, slovenly, lusty devil? Because, you know, I thought he was supposed to be everything God wasn't - the extreme opposite. Like, you know, PURE EVIL. But he was just too proud? And he wanted to take over for God? He didn't actually HURT God?

So I guess pride is the worst sin of all?

So 1/3 of Heaven's angels went with the dude? Wow. Thats a pretty big number. He must have had SOMETHING going for him. Otherwise, no one would have gone with him!

Well, this is actually a big misunderstanding that early Catholic culture has created amongst the popuular understanding. They tried to discretize everything into completely black and white perceptions. The understanding of the devil has followed along with this trend, and has created in the popular mind a sort of artificial dualism between God and the devil.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

God is pretty fucking proud if he tells you he's the only right dude out there. =/

Well, he is the only right dude out there, and thus has every right to be "proud." The reason why we shouldn't be proud is because there will always be one who is better than us. In the scope of everything, we have no right to be prideful, for, even though compared to other people, we might be awesome, compared to God, we are as bad as the lowliest persons.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Minion

This discussion is going to be hard to manage if we don't narrow down what we're talking about. I want us to pick a topic and try not to deviate from it. It looks like we're talking about Satan right now. Fine. Let's pick one thing to disucuss about him and bat it around until we're done. Tangents are always the bane of any worthwhile discussion, so lets try to avoid them. Sass, I think you should decide what the topic is specifically, then let's go from there.

I think the topic is general theology. Hence the name of the title.
Satan and God are both within the realm of theology, last I checked.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I'm sorry, it looked like Sass started it. Did her own breakoff of the originating thread.
I've done that before, and had no reason to think she didn't.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Holy shit, man. GOD can be proud? But we CAN'T be?

What kind of hypocrisy is this? A Good Leader should always set the example for his people! O_O

This sounds so Catholic, its not funny. ^_^

Like I said, God has the right to be "proud." And I do not care if it sounds catholic or not. I think it is a basic understanding of theology. It is not hypocricy either, since the problem with pride is the fact that you have no right to be proud. There is always someone better than you, so don't act like you are Him. To be prideful is to almost act as if you are as good as God. the same type of thing goes with killing people. God has the right to decide who lives and who doesn't, because he knows everything. He is the arbiter of life. If someone were to murder someone else, then he would be attempting to usurp the role of God, deciding who lives and who doesn't, and that is clearly a no-no. Just like Satan is believed to have wanted to usurp God. And he paid dearly for it.

However, as for someone setting a good example for his people, what do you think Jesus did? He came, and did exactly that. And then some as well.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

(LeHah, I've read Anton LaVey. I know. But thats a bunch of bullshit too, since it exists only to counteract the Church. "HEY! We're here just to SPOOK THE CHRISTIANS! WE ARE OUR OWN GOD. WOOOO Lets have a RITUAL SACRIFICE, even though we DONT EVEN BELIEVE IN THIS SHIT!" I loathe LaVey.)

<3 Sassumo ^_^

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Ah. THere we go.

Of course we have the right to be proud.

If you're a good Christian, God will send you to heaven! Isn't THAT AWESOME? Aren't you PROUD that you can live your life like a good Christian??

Aren't you PROUD God favors you over people like me? Don't you deserve Heaven?

No, I do not deserve Heaven. I am extremely glad that God will accept me how I am. I am happy and thankful for the chances I have been allowed. This still does not give me any right to be proud in the context in which you are referring to. It was through no effort of my own, but all the work had been done by god already.

Quote:

But Alice and Minion just told me that you can kill a person and get into Heaven! This makes no sense, Fyodor! ;_;

WELL SHIT. Sounds like you can be a murdered and you CANT get into Heaven! You were playing God!

Can SOMEONE PLEASE tell me if I murder someone, whether or not I can get into Heaven if I accept the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into my black little heart?

Ignoring your satire... Yes, you can be forgiven for the sin of usurping the role of God. Which is the whole point.
A murderer can still get into heaven, if he realize that what he was doing what wrong, and gave up this sinful desire.

Quote:

Jesus isn't God, dude. He's apparently the SON of God.

Let me ask you something.
When humans have progeny, what are they? Humans
When God has "progeny" what is it? God
This is only an illustration to explain what on earth is going on, because, like you said, the Trinity is intangible.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by SMX

Call me crazy but in my world 'correct' and 'metaphor' don't mix well. It's like looking at an abstract painting and trying to be 'correct' with your understanding of it.

What the hell are you talking about?
The only time we (the christian folk) mentioned metaphor is when Minion said that referring to God as "He" is a metaphor. As such, it is a rather incomplete term. Such is with any term that is used to describe God.

However, given your analogy, one could feasibly get an interpretation of the art wrong. For example, it could be a drab, dark, solemn depiction of someone suffering. Then some freak comes along and says that it is a parade of happy clowns. I leave the realization of the absurdity of such a conclusion to you.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I am asking you to explain what you feel (The Church) Jesus meant by that lovely, LOVELY phrase.

Sass, I find it harder and harder to read what you write when you include so much condescension and arrogant presumtuousness.
Weren't you the one who was bitching about "Christians being condescending" or something?

EDIT:
Ah yes, here we go:
http://www.gamingforce.com/forums/sh...sion#post47439

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I like how you didn't answer the question, Fyodor! I wasn't condescending or ANYTHING in my question! I just wanted to know what the explanation was of that statement! Please! Do not be confused!

Perhaps you can also explain this one?
“If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yet, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple”

Luke 14:26

And Minion, it seems more to me that he is pretty much encouraging war-mongering in the name of faith. Maybe its just my interpretation, being an idiot and all. =/

I didn't answer because:
1) Again, it is hard to acknowledge condescending questions
2) Minion took care of it

Also, it seems to me like you are not actually interested in getting answers to these questions, and rather you are looking for something which you can mock us for. It seems more and more like you are trying to catch us in some stupid logical trap.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

So you agree with Minion's assessement?


I am simply ATTEMPTING to discuss things in the Bible I am a little confused on, Fyodor. I am asking you these questions because I'd like to hear what you guys think of these scriptures!

Are you getting offended because I am selecting rather bizarre and unloving words of the Bible? Thats PRECISELY why I am asking about them! I need clarification! It seems a little contradictory to me! Perhaps I am just not understanding, and I was hoping you could maybe shed some light on the matters at hand?

No? You'd rather get offended? OKAY~

Yes, more or less.

And I am sorry, but like I said, the language you have a tendency to use gives me impression of baiting and mockery. That is just my impression though. And I guess there is not any way to tell with certainty either, considering the nature of conversation through written word.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Ah the typical Isaac sacrifice.

Well, there are many reasons why God had demanded this.

First of all, looking at this from a psychological perspective, this was probably a call for him to perform act which would concrete his devotion to God. Of course God wouldn't let him go through with it, but this is not what Abraham was thinking. Abe's devotion to God is taken at a totally different level in his mind when he is goes off to do this. Actions can have a significant psychological effect upon a person.

Secondly, the matter of sacrifices in general is a matter of atonement for sins. Basically we all deserve to die, and then some. But instead, and I don't know how or why God does this, he will accept a replacement. This is why sacrifice is generally necessitated in atonement. Because we all deserve to die.
Yeah yeah yeah, I know you are going to complain about how this is "totally unfair" or "breeding a culture of fear, thus forcing people to believe in God" or other shit, and well... so what?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is not true.
Just because someone in China is afraid to voice any opposition to the government, and they don't like it, does not mean that they are not disallowed from voicing opposition. Life is tough, and God is perhaps the closest thing to an exception.
Let us not also forget the possibility that the idea that we deserve to die might actually *gasp* be true. :-O

Also a third point:
It was setting the stage of sybolism in the Hebrew(and world's) understanding of what Jesus was going to do.
Abraham was supposed to be the father of many nations and many people. Isaac is representative of this. We, the people of the world similarly should be put to death. However, instead, a sacrificial lamb is provided by God. This is representative of Jesus, who came to take our place in death.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Just for the record, Joker does not speak for me.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Ok Sass'm, I know little to nothing about your beliefs.

But now that you have piqued my curiosity, enlighten us.

FELIPE NO