This is a Cop. He controls black people.

There's not much justification for the cops' actions in the first half of that video, but the principle behind the second part doesn't strike me as blue wall of silence so much as sound reasoning (even if some of those officers are way too edgy for their own good). I fully expect people would take a form home with them and fill it out with falsified info just to put pressure on police or to try to leverage money from the dept.

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Originally Posted by Bradylama

Fuck you. Nobody is obligated to identify themselves to a police officer for access to internal affairs. The idea that cops can ever be justified in intimidating citizens is wrong thinking.

No, but coming into a station with only the vaguest details (read: none) and outright refusing to identify oneself to an officer is what it is. Suspicious.

If I had a complaint with an officer and I didn't want to give them my identification, I would say "I'm not comfortable giving you that info." Which tells the officer a lot more than "Nah, that's cool" and trying quickly to walk away.

I can understand the reasoning behind not wanting to get into the details of a complaint against an officer, and I can see a law-abiding citizen not wanting to do so. I really can. But without anything to go on, why should the opposite be true of Police and subvert the public trust by allowing everyone to get the form and make up details/injuries later?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

WHAT ARE YOU DOING COMING HERE INTO MY POLICE STATION AND REFUSING TO IDENTIFY YOURSELF? DO YOU KNOW I CAN ARREST YOU FOR REFUSING TO COMPLY? IDENTIFY YOURSELF OR GET OUT OF MY POLICE STATION.

"You haven't arrested me, officer, and I haven't committed an offense. I don't have to comply to anything yet. But if you don't want to give me the form I know you have, then I'm going to leave peaceably."

At no point do you want to give them ammunition for "resisting arrest" or "disorderly conduct." Unfortunately a lot of the people in the second chapter do.

Of course, this is Texas penal code, so some states may have it tougher than others.

My point is that there's a way to avoid a confrontation, and if an officer tells you to leave, then staying there and persisting with the same question he's refused to answer is really just stupid. Don't poke the bear. Accept the reality that's right in front of you and go through a different channel.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by a lurker

It kind of bothers me that you think that there is a specific sequence of words that, once repeated, will grant the speaker immunity from cop dickishness. I find it equally disturbing that you feel a need for such a script to be recited, that by simply saying "no" the civilian somehow deserves to be treated like that.

It kind of bothers me that people think cop dickishness is universal and unavoidable.

I don't think there is a goddamn abracadabra phrase, I think there's a way to appeal to someone's sense of right and wrong without being foolish. You're whitewashing the whole thing, though. Parts of the video were worse than others, and suggesting I approve of strip searching an assault victim without cause serves your own ego better than any point you wanted to make.

The bottom line is that if cops didn't practice preventative measures (i.e. detaining suspicious people) then everyone would be up in arms about how many murderers, drug dealers and rapists were simply walking the streets. The fact that cops have a great deal of flexibility in how and why they detain people is what you're angry at. Not the fact that anyone can't walk in and get a form without at least the scarcest of details.

And if you could not treat me like a five year old, that would be just peachy too.

Brady, the point of the video I saw (in plain writing, no less) was that the cops pressure anyone and everyone regardless of color or creed into doing what they say just because they're all power-hungry. Which is not true.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by YOU MAD

murderers, drug dealers and rapists

That implies these people did something to warrant being treated like a criminal. I fully understand the cops in the vids are a very small minority, but the victims we're not guilty of anything yet, did not have prior records, and in some of the worst cases (see: the bart shooting) were subjected to profiling.

It's true, you don't have to have done something wrong to be detained. You do to be arrested. This film makes no distinction between the two and I'd be curious which cases were treated as one or the other. It's one of the reasons alarm bells are ringing in my head.

I am resistant to what amounts to a propaganda video. Yes, some officers can and will abuse their power, because the nature of the job is such that it will attract power-hungry people. But my original post was discussing the principle behind why the officers would not want to give the form out and not the actions of the officers.

Originally Posted by a lurker

really because I was only talking about the film in question so...

I whole-heartedly believe that your "just say this" statement is false and grounded in naivete. You don't have to give them ammunition for disorderly conduct, they can find it themselves.

Also if you can explain to me how preventative measures come in when asking for complaint forms plz

Brady wanted to play make-believe, so I played along. I said what I would have said to an officer of the law. If you don't like how I said it, that's another thing. There's also nothing stopping someone from playing nice with the guy or using a joke to break the ice, but I prefer to be straightforward and speak without guile, so if the example officer decided to detain me for whatever reason, I have no legal recourse. I may not enjoy time spent in a cell for nothing, and I may go to internal affairs to suggest cooler heads need to prevail over in precinct 32, but my outrage would be proportionate to whatever they had done to me. The race issue is another can of worms, but I'll just say if I was a black man I'd probably be considerably more pissed depending on how I was treated.

The 'ammunition' thing was the wrong way to say what I wanted. Aside from arresting people who are clearly guilty due to evidence in hand, officers have a duty to keep crimes from being committed, and part of that is detaining people who may have or may be intending to commit a crime.

Asking for a form, obviously is not a crime, since I've already granted that a person should have a right to get a complaint form, but if your behavior is such that you are fidgety and/or avoid direct questioning, that is suspicious, and makes a cop wonder what you have to hide. Maybe it's nothing. But it's within their power to detain a person (not arrest them) for something like that. I don't have to agree with it to know it's true when I walk into a station and ask for a form. Which is why I phrased the response like I did, straightforwardly, addressing their concerns if not their questions.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Fuck principles. They are public servants, and it is their duty to serve requested forms.

You'll notice there's no video of a precinct that served the forms. Because it's not inflammatory and doesn't serve an anti-police agenda.

Quote:

Excusing their behavior is the source of the problem. Americans have this bizarre infatuation with power and a deference to authority that should not exist in a free society. Who gives a shit if somebody is acting suspicious? Acting suspicious is not a crime.

Which is why no one can arrest such a person. Don't mistake my comments here as some kind of misguided patriotism. I just recognize the need for peace officers to be able to use their own judgment in capturing criminals. I may not agree with the degree or the circumstances in which they use it, but by necessity you cannot have a police force that always serves the will of individual community members. Talking about a free society is kind of moot in this case unless you advocate shotgun justice.

Originally Posted by YOU MAD

What does it matter? If you write a bunch of bullshit on that form I'm sure someone will see through it. However, if you have a viable complaint why should your nervousness or unwillingness to just give the cops your information exclude you from getting a form?

It shouldn't. You're trying to make my argument out to be something it's not. I'm more concerned that everyone seems ready to gloss over the police point of view and that it isn't simply spite guiding these officers to say what they're saying. I prefer to grey the lines when I see stuff like this because frankly it bothers me when the first thing everyone grabs is the pitchforks.

A few days ago, reading this thread, tighter taser procedures struck me as a very good idea. It still does. But I can think that, and still simultaneously understand the hesitation an officer would feel at giving out a form to someone clearly agitated and trying at all costs to avoid police contact of any kind (not simply with the officer they're accusing.)

Don't make me out to be a bad guy simply because I'm not calling for blood in 100% of cases shown here.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

With neither of us being in the police and having first hand experience, I don't think there's much more to say except "I believe differently." I acknowledge the blue wall of silence exists, and I acknowledge the need for watchdog groups, but I don't say it's universal.

Maybe it is naivete. I'm certainly no stranger to it. But this whole form scenario strikes me less as clear cut abuse and more as social norms colliding. (i.e. duty as an officer vs. duty to community)

Originally Posted by a lurker

If there was one precinct that served the form, would that invalidate all the rage against the precincts that did not?

It would make the police seem less like a collective, abusive entity. There might have been not just one, but 18! or 50%! But the fact that we don't know (and the video makes no attempt to convince us otherwise) gives me pause. I think it's great that the site the video links has not just a wall of shame, but a section for praiseworthy officers and precincts.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by a lurker

I don't really care what the police seem to be. All I care about is getting a complaint form without being harassed, when I need it, where I need it.

So here's your choices. Reality time. You have to accept that there will be some people who don't want to give it to you. That means you can either A) run your head against a brick wall, or you can B) take advantage of watchdog groups and alternative channels to achieve the same ends. This is what I said from the beginning.

Is it sad that you can't simply get the form from anywhere and anyone you like? Yeah. Unfortunately that's kind of the way the world works. It just so happens personal grievances against police officers isn't high on a lot of congresspeople's priority lists right now.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by a lurker

This coming from the guy who would just calmly and rationally discuss why he is not going to provide identification to a pissed-off cop?

Yeah, I'm buying your reality check.

Like I said. Brady wanted to do a theoretical. If I was really in a position where I wanted to file a complaint, the first words out of my mouth would be
"I"m Jackson Awesomeface, and you need to give me a complaint form. What about? How about Officer Tweedledee that punched me in the face for a traffic stop on August 18. You need my license? Here."

But I couldn't do that for obvious reasons because we're talking about people who are scared of the police and refuse to give out their info.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

I wonder why some people are afraid of the police and Skexis isn't?

I don't remember ever saying that race isn't an issue. Maybe because I didn't ever say that.

But continue by all means. I'm sure you'll fill the thread with pages of things I haven't said.

And for the record, for people who claim to dislike abusive people/cops, you two throw an awful lot of contempt around in your posts.

There's nowhere I can't reach.