The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

I think dice rolling is just an archaic tradition that's unnecessary in most recent games. It's a very poor way of simulating the chance of getting something right, which although might be useful in table top gaming, isn't needed in video games.

Back when consoles and PCs were physically unable to show the details of combat, faking it with random number generation was the only way to do it. I'm positive that if they had the means, developers of classic RPGs like Ultima would definitely want the player to have more control over combat. After all, if you're able to roleplay your character in combat (in a skill based combat system), then that definitely reflects your character more accurately than a number added on to a dice roll.

I'm curious, Brady, what games would you consider true RPGs? Quoting your journal entry, "the player is given no real option concerning his role as a positive or negative influence on Cyrodiil and Tamriel" is your main reason for the game not being a role playing game.

That's actually pretty limiting in what's actually considered an RPG, isn't it? This automatically rules out basically any console RPG and almost any non-Fallout PC RPG. I don't entirely disagree with you on this, mind you, but it seems like the definition of a role playing game is fairly different to you than it is to most gamers.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Let's say I'm trying to disarm a bomb.

Good example. I can't say much against it, because it's entirely true for that type of skill.

My main complaint is with skills that should be intuitive to a character. Say I create a fighter type character. He's not just some peasant who suddenly said "I think I'll become an adventuring warrior." There's some kind of background to him that made him follow the path. He's faught against others and is reasonably skilled in combat, and he's proficient with tools and skills that apply to his lifestyle.

We're in game now, and he runs into an angry goblin. Game wise, our hero will roll a die, add a small bonus, and compare it to the goblin's armor class. He's been swinging swords ever since he was a kid, and there's no question that he can hit a mere goblin without much effort. But the way the dice work, he adds his small attack bonus of +2 if he's a low level character to a pathetic roll like a 2. Against the goblin's armor class of 10, he misses. Alright. Keep in mind, though, that his attack total is 4 before even comparing it to the goblin's armor class of 10.

Take a similar combat situation, only we're now playing a geriatric wizard. He has a low strength, and has overall much less experience in weapons than our young hero. He rolls a die to attack the same goblin and gets a 16. Even though his attack bonus has degenerated to -5 in his old age, the attack is still enough to hit the goblin.

This is my main issue with dice rolling. In my opinion, a pathetic old man with little combat experience should not be able to fight on the same ground as a trained fighter in any situation. Yeah, I know the fighter will obviously have more health, be able to swing harder, and on average will have more hits because of his attack bonus. The fact remains, though, that depending on how the dice roll, the old wizard could potentially beat him in a one on one sword fight.

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I'll have to go into detail about this later, but a list of true RPGs that I've played is as follows: Ultima series, Fallout 1 & 2, Planescape: Torment, Baldurs Gate, KOTOR and KOTOR II, Arcanum: Of Steamwork and Magick Obscura (a phenomenal roleplaying game hampered by sub-par combat), The Temple of Elemental Evil, and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines.

I've played or at least a portion of the games in that list, but I'll definitely have to check out Vampire the Masquerade, Temple of Elemental Evil, and Arcanum. Thanks.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Forsety

Even completely naked with both characters wielding daggers or quarterstaves the mage character would never be able to kill the fighter before he explodes the mage into tiny little chunks of flesh, likely from a overkill critical hit. My point is that you overexaggerated a bit.

Yeah, I did blow it out of proportion, but I really don't like that it's even a possibility. Between the buff warrior and a wizard, the fighter shouldn't even have to roll anything in my opinion.

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In a game like Oblivion this is a little more complicated, same for morrowind. [...] Still, it isn't a problem with die rolls, which is what you were insinuating but rather an issue with the way some games are set up.

I should have been clearer that my dice complaint wasn't related to Oblivion, exactly. I was just trying to get across that dice aren't necessarily the best system for everything, much less a genre-defining mechanic, which Brady was suggesting. I was just exaggerating an example to show that dice aren't always the answer.

I agreed with Brady's review of Oblivion in that overall it has heavy action elements overall, but I think the combat does something right. In Baldur's Gate, for instance, if you have a tough monster, you tell your character to go attack it. What will happen is that they'll walk up to each other, stop, and start swinging their weapons. There's no movement, and if your character swings and misses, the animation will often go right through the monster.

In my opinion, a battle should be more chaotic and lively. Sure, you can use your imagination in table top games and interpret a miss as your sword being deflected by a shield or something, but you really shouldn't have to guess in a game.

That's what I like about Oblivion. The player is put on the same level as the character. If you see an enemy winding up for a power move, you can see that through the character's own eyes and dodge out of the way. No need to make a perception roll. You can spot when an enemy is recovering from a blow and then pummel them even further. No need to add a +2 to your attack roll since they're caught off guard. I think this kind of immersion is great, and similar ideas should be incorporated into future games. However, I definitely wouldn't want to have to micro-manage a party of six with a system like Oblivion's. Traditional dice rolls can stick around for that kind of game.

I'm sure that you could argue that you can't truly role play a character in an interface like Oblivion's, and that dice rolls are needed to represent the character's strengths and weaknesses, and to an extent it's true depending on the type of mechanic the game is going for. If dice rolls must be used, I want to see everything clearly on the screen. I don't want little text messages popping up saying that I missed or whatever, and I don't want my swinging animation moving through an enemy just because my dice roll sucked.

Basically I think a video game RPG should be wholly different than a traditional table top game, but I guess others would disagree. There are a lot of rules and procedures that were created for table top games that simply don't need to exist in a modern video game. Some games like like Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights pride themselves on being faithful to D&D rulesets, but I think there's definitely room for different kinds of RPGs that can expand and change the traditional mechanics of table top games.

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I think something of that calibur deserves it's own thread, rather than be minorly debated here in a thread where it's almost off-topic.

Sure, I'll second that.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.