FFShrine

Yo!,

If anyone is a part of the FFShrine forums, could you please tell them it is NOT okay to illegally upload the Video Games Live album.

This thread came up in our Google Alerts:
Final Fantasy Shrine Forums

As one of the posters said... it's not like we're charging a lot of money.
You'll see some game concerts charge $35+ for thier albums. And lets not even start with the outrageous costs of IMPORTS! UGH! We keep the price as reasonable as humanly possible (under $14 on Amazon... $10 on iTunes FOR 18 songs!!!).

But the worst part of illegally downloading game music that is made available at retail is that none of the record companies or distributors out there ever want to release game music because the "paid for" numbers are always poor and they know that a lot of hardcore game music fans won't bother financially supporting the industry and genre they love.

As a game composer TRYING to convince all these companies that game music is loved and people are passionate about it (especially if the price is NOT ridiculous)... I can tell you that it sucks when they constantly say that game music fans aren't willing to support us.



If something isn't commerically available.... I personally have no problem with folks downloading it. It's when stuff is commerically available (especially at a reasonable price) that it gets to be something that I think people need to really stop and think twice about.

Thanks! Anyone else agree/disagree or have any comments/discussion points?

And again... can someone please go into the FFShrine forms and have them take down the link (and please don't download it before you tell them).



Tommy

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Taisai

While the original right holder or somebody in a closer position is definitely entitled for posting a message like yours, and it's no doubt illegal downloading will bring a potential damage to both record companies and artists, some people (like me) would end up purchasing far less albums if they didn't download anything. Not to dis you, but I'm actually totally indifferent to VGL, let alone buying a concert CD/DVD. I'd definitely be curious about Distant World, Press Start, and to a lessor extent, Chris Huelsbeck's symphonic concert and Play!, but for whatever reasons not about VGL at all. A download link could have be a nice chance for me to turn my attention to what's overlooked, if I had tried to download it.

Again, Tommy, your stance is totally understable. You and VGL should be protected. There is nothing I disagree with in your statement, even if with my different view on file-sharing in general than yours, my final conclusion is to continue to download whatever interests me.

With all due respect... I feel your logic is a little flawed for one main and very important reason...

The fact is... all commerically released CD's have 30 second sample clips of every single track. More than enough to make a decision on your purchase being worth it. Because of this, I don't think you would be right justifying that you download things illegally just so you can hear them.

In essence, what you are saying is that it is perfectly okay to walk into any music store and steal the CD right off the shelf. If you happen to like it, maybe you'll go back and give them the money. If not, you'll just keep it or throw it away. I understand the arguement of not wanting to waste your money on something you might not like, but that's why all music stores have listening stations and why paid digital downloads have samples of every song.

In my view, it seems that younger people feel absolutely no remorse for stealing just because it's digital and on the internet. I don't believe they see a connection at all to a physical product, therefore they feel it's okay and acceptable to steal from someone else.

Maybe people need to stop fooling themselves a bit stop and stop trying to convince themselves that what they're doing isn't wrong.

Just my thoughts.

I can honestly say that I've never downloaded anything illegally... and proud of it.

I've also never car-jacked anyone (except in Grand Theft Auto).



Tommy

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Kolba

30 seconds are almost never enough to make a value judgement on an entire song. Songs go through different stages, they have good parts and bad parts (or good parts and not quite so good parts), and often the good parts are only effective in context. A better way to give a taster of an album is to provide a stream of several full length tracks. Even then the buyer is making a gamble, but they have the guarantee of liking at least part of what they've bought.

Yes, I agree... but this already happens as well. Aside from specific game music related internet radio stations (AOL, etc.) there are also things like Pandora. Here is a list of the some of the top video game radio stations:
Video Game Music Radio Stations - Free Internet Radio
(There are 53 just on this list alone!)

So listening to game music as a stream already occurs... therefore once again making it not okay to blatently steal something from someone else.

In this day and age there are also many online reviews of products (both professional and by fellow purchasers) to further give you specific information. Especially at places like Amazon.com and iTunes.

I don't believe there is any current circumstance that exists that would justify stealing from another person. Because in the end... it's still stealing without permission, it's taking from others what is not yours to take, it's ruining the opportunity for the genre to ever grow AND at its most basic level... it's against the law.

Tommy

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Kishin

The questions on whether video game music would be even CLOSE to as popular as now without its complete piratization in the past, need to be asked. Uprooting vgm from its heritage and the beginnings - free online availability - and commercializing it has more or less ruined all quality in the past five years. The dream is dead.

This is an interesting topic, and it should be born in mind that Tommy and many others involved would make ZERO money for their wonderful efforts, if someone hadn't downloaded the music of the games where the music comes from and hadn't come to the concerts to see the entertaining shows. That's where they got the incentive to buy the cd of the show in the first place.

Maybe a thread split from this to talk about the subject?

[I personally don't care about VGL's song selection (especially on the cds), so at least there's one person who won't be downloading.]

With all due respect...

I completly disagree that "comercializing" video game music has ruined it. I'm guessing that this kind of statement and thinking comes from more of a "hardcore" perspective... and I can appreciate that. For example, I've spoken to some hardcores who are genuinely annoyed that game music is no longer such an "underground" thing as it once was. Its these same folks who generally despise the fact that "casuals" enjoy listening to songs like One-Winged Angel and that all game composers who were not born in Japan are talentless hacks.



Some people may like to pretend that all game music before the mid 90's was absoutely amazing and all modern game music sucks. I say this... there was just as much (if not more) more annoying game music in the 80's & 90's as there is today (and I should know... I made some of it!).



Every game can't be 5 stars in the music dept. every time, and each era (past and modern) has in fact had its great scores and not-so-great scores. Personally... some of my favorite game music came from the 80's & 90's. But other franchises like God of War, Halo, Kingdom Hearts, Warcraft, Mass Effect, Bioshock, Shadow of the Colossus, Beyond Good & Evil, Afrika and many more are just as significant. Maybe not to everyone on a personal level. But it would be somewhat ignorant to dismiss them as "low quality" because of "commercialization" (i.e. successful and made more available to more of a mainstream audience).

In regards to the second paragraph stating that we would make "ZERO" money if people didn't illegally download and steal our material... this is just not true (it's only true among the "hardcore" thieves who will never pay for anything digital anyway). I have hundreds upon hundreds of studies and paid marketing research that says the EXACT opposite. Just VGL alone (along with the local promoters) spends millions of dollars each year on TV, online, newspapers, in-store retail, radio, etc., etc. to get the word out. Facebook ads (for example) have an almost $8 to $1 buy to spend ration alone. That means for every $1 that is spent on Facebook (in regards to video game music) it turns into an $8 profit. And we SPECIFICALLY do NOT target hardcore gamers. We go after families, non-gamers, grandparents, etc. Over $1 million dollars was spent on creating the VGL PBS Special that went over the airways to approximately 90 million people in the U.S. 80% of viewers which do not regularly play video games. Yeah we commercialized it... and the non-gaming parents, grandparents and kids loved it.

Watch this and tell me if you think the commericalization of game music has destoyed the quality of our field: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u_EWzmvI8E&feature=fvw

And make sure to read the hundreds of positive comments left by non-gaming moms, dads and grandparents.

And then take a look at the PBS YouTube Channel under TOP RATED where you'll find the 2 VGL Trailers at #'s 8 & 9. (link: http://www.youtube.com/user/PBS#p/u) This is out of more than 3600+ videos they have posted over the years. And then try making an arguement that "commericalization" is bad for game music and the quality is getting worse.

Millions of non-gaming people around the world can listen to something like that and have a greater understanding, knowledge, appreciation and most of all... RESPECT for the art of game music. And it was because of the "commercialization" that made it possible. If not for that, a few thousand people would have their illegally downloaded original CIV IV Baba Yeta .mp3 and all of your non-gaming friends making fun of you and calling you a nerd/geek/loser because you listen to it (without ever giving it a chance).

And again... let me state... I personally don't have a problem with anyone downloading music that isn't currently commercially available. A lot of my early music can ONLY really be heard this way... and I totally appreciate people spreading it around, putting it up on YouTube, etc. But NOT when something is put up on the market for sale.

I respect that you don't like the video game song selection on the Video Games Live CD, but I'm just curious to know... if you don't like music from Megaman, Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Halo, Mario, Zelda, Warcraft, God of War, Sonic the Hedgehog and Castlevania.... what the heck DO you like!?!?




Tommy



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Additional Spam:

Originally Posted by LiquidAcid

And here we are again, setting 'theft' and 'copyright infringement' on the same level, which these two terms are clearly not.

Websters describes "theft" as "the act of stealing" although I'm very aware of the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not constitute stolen property and that "...interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud."

But for this discussion, saying "Can someone please tell the FFShrine to stop infringing on my copyrights!" just doesn't have the same pizzaz, punch and appeal.



T.T.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by LiquidAcid

So why haven't I purchased the second volume, which we're talking about here? Because condition (ii) isn't satisfied. I already explained this on VGMdb, but I'm going to repeat it here:
- Constant cheering is a no-go for me. I want to hear the music that the band/orchestra/soloists are playing. I don't want to hear the audience throughout the whole track.
- The arrangement are weak and emotionless. Thomas Böcker's Symphonic series has raised the bar for arrangements a lot and I honestly don't see any improvement here compared to Volume 1.
- Too much copy and paste from Volume 1

Just stating my personal opinion here.

Yo,

It's a live album which is the companion to the live show and DVD/Blu-Ray. The cheering and excitement are part of the draw for a lot of people (especially ones who like the energy and excitement of a live experience as opposed to same old rehashed studio arrangements). So if you don't like live recordings, then I understand that you probably wouldn't like this album. That being said, your explanation of hearing the "audience throughout the entire track" just isn't correct. Once the couple of seconds of excitement and cheering at the very beginning of the song are through (mostly before the songs start) it is very much on the same quality level as any studio recorded album. The link I gave above of the Civ IV music I think is a perfect example.

Weeks were spent in the studio getting the mixes just right. Separate ones for the album, for the TV show and for the DVD/Blu-Ray. But again... everyone is different.

In regards to your subjective comment/opinion about "weak arrangements", that's cool, it's your opinion. I'm not going to try and change your mind. If you think the Civ IV music link above is "weak" then clearly we're on different pages musically... and that's okay. I would never expect people to have the same exact music tastes.

Your final comment about cutting and pasting from Volume One is also incorrect. Again, I'll use the above Civ IV as an example (totally new arrangment, singers, vocals, etc.). Also brand new to the second album was Mega Man, StarCraft II, Chrono Trigger/Cross, Lament of the Highborne, FF7 One Winged Angel, Sonic the Hedgehog, Mass Effect, Mario, Zelda and Martin Leung's FF piano arrangment and Mario piece (which btw, were recorded in a studio for the album... not live). That's 12 brand new songs right there! The same pieces that appeared on the first album (God of War, Advent Rising & Castlevania) were brand new recordings... and mostly becuase the album is a companion piece to the DVD & Blu-Ray.

Rock On.

Tommy


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Additional Spam:

Originally Posted by Kolba

I only listen to vgm from games that I've bought and played. In a lot of cases the quality of the music was a deciding factor in paying for the game. In buying the game did I not pay already to enjoy its music (and graphics, and gameplay, and...) at my leisure?

I know this doesn't apply to live and arranged soundtracks.

It's a valid point, but the answer to the question is "not really". When game (or film or television) music is released for a CD an entirely different process is used, money is spent on re-arranging, editing, mixing, mastering, album art, additional or extra tracks, re-mixes, etc. It's very rare that a game or film soundtrack is the same exact thing as the game or movie you bought. VERY rare. It also has it's own marketing budgets, distribution channels, etc.

Another thing to keep in mind is that most game composers (unlike the film and television industry) do not make royalties on the game and in a lot of cases they give up certain money just to keep a percentage of the soundtrack rights in hopes that people will support them.

Tommy


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Additional Spam:

Originally Posted by Teioh

"commercializing" game music only fuels the piracy. The people you're having a problem with are those 'casuals' who spend hundreds of dollars on games each month yet see game music as a free bonus and are only willing to pay for live concerts and events.

Also, the majority of game music composers still hold no rights to their music, so I assume they condone the sharing (sharing to some, stealing to others) of their works and are happy for as little as fan mails and positive feedback.

I can't speak for anybody, though, and I totally respect your stance. It's just the target audience of VGL that has to be sensitized for these issues, not this place.

I'm not having a problem with anyone. In fact the only people I've seen pirate our products are the hardcore game music fans. Lets be clear, 50% of the crowds we get at Video Games Live rarely even play video games. They probably have kids, friends or boyfriends who do, but don't necessarily play games themselves (although after seeing our show they definitely start to take a bigger interest). We sell hundreds of albums, DVD's & Blu-Rays at our live shows... always. If what you said above was the case... this wouldn't happen. All the casuals would just go home and try finding it for free. Again, we've done a TON of market research on who comes to Video Games Live, who bought the tickets and why... etc., etc... I can't speak for other game concerts and I'm sure because of the nature of those shows, the audiences are very different and not as mainstream I would imagine (which is TOTALLY fine and awesome... just not what I'm interested in accomplishing as my goals).

It's not an entirely correct statement to say that most game composers don't hold rights to their music (Mitsuda-san for example owns all the music to Chrono Cross). In most cases these days the composer will try to keep some kind of the music publishing or bonus percentage paid outside of the video game (which, unfortunately for illegal downloads is never much).

As I stated previously we all love the idea of people hearing our music and passing it around for free... as long as it's not for sale. But a pat on the back and a positive e-mail doesn't pay the bills. I'm very good friends with many Japanese composers and most of them make very little money unfortunately. They think it's funny how everyone around the world thinks they are big rock stars in Japan and make tons of cash. It just isn't the case. And I'm speaking about the BIGGEST Japanese names... names you all know and love (and I'm sure have illegally downloaded their music). j/k



Seriously though... I'm not trying to convince people here to change their minds. Quite frankly, given the circumstances of this particular forum... I somewhat feel like a hen in a den of wolves regarding this subject.

And I'm not trying to be preachy or have some kind of "holier-than-thou" attitude (although I understand it may come off as such). I just thought that the folks here may be interested in some information that may be contrary to their current beliefs and behavoirs. It's all good.

We all have a great understanding, respect and love for game music and that's the most important thing.

Thanks for listening.

Tommy

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by LiquidAcid

At this point I like to quote Thomas Böcker:

Original interview here: Game Music :: Interview with Symphonic Legends Producer (September 2010)

I'm deeply grateful that Böcker is opposing this sad market trend.

Yes, it's quite clear that you are a Thomas Böcker fanboy. Thank-you for pointing that out. And as I'm sure you're aware he isn't very fond of Video Games Live and the way we present our show. That's cool.

I've always applauded him for doing what he does in such a different way. And if he doesn't want to give us the same kind of understanding, credit and respect... that's cool too. It doesn't affect what I do in any way. We do between 50 - 60 shows every year around the world and are spreading game music to millions of new people... that was and is my goal... and so far we've been succeeding on a huge level. Clearly in order to do this I need to tailor my show and experience a certain way... and it's one that I'm completely happy and proud of.

You linked to an interview from squareenixmusic.com which people have sent me in the past and I have read. I'd like to also link to an interview that the same website did with me as well which talks a lot about some of the things you've brought up. May help in understanding my approach.

Game Music :: Interview with Tommy Tallarico of Video Games Live (November 2009)

Also (from the same website) I'd like to point to a review that Chris did when he finally saw our show. Chris (like yourself) is also a very hardcore game music fan and was a bit apprehensive in regards to what Video Games Live was and how it was presented. I think his fair review from that perspective will give you a better insight as to how the show is really presented. I mean, lets be honest.. if you haven't seen it, it's probably a little unfair to say that it's not for you and you don't like it.



Game Music :: Video Games Live (Cardiff, Wales) :: Report by Chris

But hey... not everyone is going to like the same thing. Totally understandable. It's just nice to be able to speak to other folks from around the world who are as passionate about this stuff as I am. As long as we can do it with respect and understanding.

Rock On.

Tommy

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Worm

Can someone explain this argument to me? Asking for compensation for your work means you're the one to blame for an overall decrease in quality? It takes an incredible amount of gall to say, "Look, if we didn't have to pay for all of this music, none of this would have happened."

I am sympathetic to perceived problems such as the intentional simplification of music for mass consumption. But, the line between these problems and not giving away your work for free is not a straight one. It's insulting to lay all the blame on the artists as if it were a clear case of "selling out" in every instance.

It seems particularly irrelevant with respect to Video Games Live, the point of which is to rearrange and glorify music that has already been created.

Thank-you for bringing sanity to this thread.



Tommy


==========================

Originally Posted by LeHah

I fail to see ANY line connecting the two. "This music is simple, so it must suck and I dislike it... and thus I have to steal it"?

T.T.


===========================

Originally Posted by Pizza Helmet von Cuntingham

Great, Tommy, way to make me feel guilty about downloading FFVI Chocobo Theme eight years ago >=/

Oh... now I feel guilty that I made you feel guilty. I just e-mailed Uematsu and he told me it was okay for you to do it that one time. So no worries, you're off the hook.



T.T.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Zephyrin

Also, I like the fact that a figurehead in the VGM industry comes and posts on our forums. It's wonderful. It is, however, less than vibrant that you rarely come to say anything other than plug your show or interject on topics about it. You obviously have time to nitpick all these things. How about you come around sometime and not talk about VG Live?

Because I work 20 hours a day making stuff you can steal.

And I'd rather not subject myself to the clear lack of respect that some people seem to relish in here.



Tommy

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Teioh

This discussion has pretty much ended on page 1. You know it's over when people show up who visit this part of the board perhaps once a year and only for the sake of the arguement.

I'll just respond to what Tommy said..


Quite frankly, that's unfair to say. There's no market research about who illegaly downloaded what. There's always a voiceful minority, but 'hardcore' comes on so many levels, you just cannot generalize it. Here's another hardcore:

I can guarantee you that every board with questionnable content has thousands of lurkers who don't brag about their piracy, but do the same damage.


Mitsuda-san is a great man who has created beautiful music, and he's a very nice person as well. His greatness has allowed him to become freelance, create his own record label and start his own studio to bring in new talent. He is not the majority I'm talking about. And please don't read that as an excuse to download his works, it's the opposite.

So yeah, I don't want to defend piracy, but one has to draw the line between ambitious projects like VGM concerts, independent labels (EGG music seemingly has no problem with piracy) and on the other side, composers whose works can only be listened to if you e.g. pre-order some obscure Japanese game nobody in the West would ever admit to playing (and honestly, I bought almost ten of these bonus soundtrack CDs from Yahoo Japan Auctions this month).

Oh, I think you're being a little selective with my quotes and examples to try and show your side of the arguement which at its core will still always be... it's okay to blatently take something that is for sale and not pay for it. I guess if some folks here can keep coming up with unique ways to justify their actions, that somehow makes it okay in their own minds and they won't feel as guilty? But I think deep down, you know it's wrong... but you'll still continue to do it anyway. I guess you could say it's a testament of the type of person you really are? I hope not.

In fact, under these same rules, we should be able to take anything from anyone in the world and not pay them for it, correct? Have some of you somehow justified in your mind that a musician or composer is somehow different and we shouldn't be held under the same rules as say *insert your parents job here*?? Next time your parents come home and they tell you that they just worked all year on making something but people are just taking it without paying... look them in the eye and tell them the same line of bullshit you're passing around here.

But hold on... If it's a particular composer that you like ("Mitsuda-san is a great man that creates beautiful music... don't download his works")... then you shouldn't take from him. So it's just the composers and projects that you don't personally like and don't respect. Ah! Gotcha.

But all that being said and more to your specific arguement, the realities still remain the same which is... 1. I've only ever seen my albums illegally posted on hardcore music sites where hardcore game music fans dwell, and 2. Game composers DO feel the impact of your illegal activities and your theory that game composers don't own parts of their own music is absolutely wrong. Forget music publishing for a second... do you know what the term "writers share" is or means? Do you know what "mechanicals" are? Look them up and get back to me. I could continue to give you many other composer examples but you'll just counter with... Oh, but he's different because he is such a nice person, has his own studio and isn't the majority.

I've lived the game audio business for the last 21+ years and I proudly head up the biggest non-profit game audio organization in the world (which has over 2,500 members from around the world), so sorry if I come off a bit harsh and pithy, but I hope you can understand that it's a little bit amusing to me when my experience, knowledge and data is called into question every other post as if I'm guessing or have no idea what I'm talking about.

Isn't the internet fun?



Well fellas, that about does it for me this round, it's going to be Monday again soon and I'll need to go back into the real world. Now that I'm off tour for the next couple of weeks I'll try to make it back next weekend to see what trouble I can get myself into.

Until then... Rock On.



Tommy

Jam it back in, in the dark.