PLAY!/Eminence Split Thread

Originally Posted by Kairi Li

When I went to VGL and heard MGS being played, it was awesome, the arrangement was so cinematic, it gave me hope and excitment that VG music can be take seriously like film music does. The Play! version was rather pathetic by comparison. And hearing how disrespectful they are has shown their true colors, if it came from the composer's mouth, wouldn't we rather side with them than with the producers who flash their fake smiles and promote their mediocrly arranged concerts to get money?

Thank you for the kind words Kairi. I'm glad you liked are arrangements. We worked very hard with the MGS composers and my friend Hideo Kojima (on the video) to get everything just right. In fact mostly all of the segments you see/hear in our show were painstakingly arranged and orchestrated by myself, Jack and the original composers. As far as the synched video production... we once again worked with the creators, designers and developers. I'm fortunate enough to have been a part of the video game industry for over 16 years now and have worked with many of the studios that appear in our show. So getting developers such as Bungie, Blizzard, Sony, Kojima, Disney, etc. to help me create the videos was fun and exciting as much as it was an honor to work with so many talented people.

Thanks again for the support! Glad ya liked the show.


Tommy

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Kairi Li

If Jason has indeed used deciet to gain all this, shouldn't it be known? If Jason is able to screw people at VGL, they certainly can do whatever they want with Eminence,

I don't want to get into some big internet battle here. As a composer of VGM for over 16 years it has always been my dream for there to be as many concerts and soundtracks and recognition as possible. I want EVERYONE to succeed because it is my passion and my dream.

However... What I can tell you are the basic facts that have unfortunately turned our feelings towards Play! to a very negative way. First let me say that I've known and been in touch with Thomas Boecker long before any of this. He is a dear man and has a great passion for video game music. It doesn't surprise me at all to hear of his departure from Play! and his real reasons (which I do not feel comfortable going into detail with).

There are 4 simple questions that I would like to pose to anyone reading this.


1. Why does it say on the Play! website that they are "THE FIRST AND ONLY WORLD TOUR FEATURING VISUALS WITH LIVE MUSIC FROM VIDEO GAMES PERFORMED BY FULL ORCHESTRA AND CHOIR"

Why would they lie and deceit the public like that? The truth is that Jason Michael Paul tried to come and work for us over 3 years ago (we've been working on VGL for over 5 years). After we didn't hire him is when he decided to start Dear Friends. He is very much aware of our concert and is very much aware that other concerts and tours have traveled around the world before him (we did it 6 months before his first concert). So why try to purposely pass yourself off as something you are not?


2. Ticket Prices? I don't want to go into detail, but because of our state-of-the-art lighting, special fx, synchronized video, interactive segments, pre-show festival, marketing budgets, etc... our show costs a LOT more to produce than if we were just to have a symphony play (not that there is anything at all wrong with that). Please answer me this... When we played Toronto our ticket prices were CAN$39 - $59. in the same market a month later the Play! ticket prices were CAN$65 - $155!! And you had to pay to meet the 3 composers on hand? How is this forwarding the industry exactly? We had over 20 composers AND designers at our free meet & greet after the show. I am NOT trying to somehow prove that our show is better or that you shouldn't go to their show... I'm just stating facts and providing data comparisons because I just don't understand the mentality. How can our show cost 3 times more to produce yet our ticket prices are 1/3 the cost? How can a mother or father take their family of 5 to go see a show if the ticket prices are $100+ each? Our goal from the beginning has been to spread video game music to as many people as possible... it has never been about making money for us. Our ticket prices at the Hollywood Bowl started at $1.


3. Lies to the press? This is from an interview with JMP before their Toronto show:


==============
Q: First and foremost, what spawned the creation of Play! ? With other orchestras such as Video Games Live! Doing largely the same thing, was there ever a worry that things would be too similar?

Jason: The creation of PLAY! is the result of the first Video Game Music concert series in the US that I created, Dear Friends- Music from FINAL FANTASY. I feel as if there is more potential with a show that performs music from a variety of blockbuster video games not just FINAL FANTASY. Seeing the success of Dear Friends is what spawned PLAY!.

PLAY! and the other show are completely different. For instance, in Chicago at our premiere PLAY! featured over 100 musicians on stage with a grammy award winning conductor Arnie Roth. When VGL was performed in Chicago at the same venue, after us they featured a total of 18 musicians on stage. [Ed. Note: VGL organizers dispute this claim.] This sounds more like a band rather than an orchestra. PLAY! is all about the music. It is not about anything else! We feature world class musicians and orchestras. A real symphony event not a chamber orchestra or a jam band playing to visuals from games. It is a completely live symphonic music with no playback from the games. 100% live music!

[reference: http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=542]
=================

Why would he blatently want to lie about us and our production like that?
We had over 60 musicians on stage for our Chicago show.

We had over 120+ musicians on stage at the Hollywood Bowl two weeks ago. We've done the Bowl twice and had the LA Phil one year and The Hollywood Bowl Orchestra this year. We even staged the biggest concert of musicians to date with over 132+ when we played at Houston with the Houston Symphony:
http://www.videogameslive.com/index.php?story=49
http://www.videogameslive.com/index.php?story=50

Does our production and world class orchestras sound like a "Jam Band" as he puts it?

If his goal is to really spread VGM music... why would he lie about our production to try and purposely hurt us?



4. Indianapolis Symphony? - JMP announced that he was doing two shows during Gen Con with the Indianapolis Symphony when we were in fact the ones doing the show. Once the Indianapolis Symphony was informed of what Play! was doing they immediately made him retract his statements and pull all information regarding Indianapolis from his website. He then sent out an e-mail to his mailing list stating that he had decided to cancel the shows because the Indianapolis Symphony didn't reach the high standards of quality that Play! is accustomed to. Wow!

Why would someone announce a show that he didn't have?



In closing, I think it is sad that people are trying to tarnish the passion and hard work that any of the other VGM concerts are trying to do. It is already a difficult and uphill battle to get the mainstream interested and to prove to the world how incredbile VGM and the entire industry is. I just have to take into question the integrity of someone who would do such things as the 4 things I mentioned above. Those are not my opinions, there are no two sides to the story... only the facts I have provided above which anyone is more than welcome to check on.

I wish concerts like Emminence the best of luck and I hope to work with them someday as well as any of the other concerts out there. I'd love to promote any of them on our website and to our mailing list. We started this a long time ago for a reason and it had nothing to do with making money or trying to hurt others.




Tommy

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Mr. Maul

Tommy:

Are you able to inform if Jason M. Paul is actually interested in game music? I'm aware that the main reason he is running PLAY! and has the rights to FF music is because his girlfriend is something big in Square Enix (and hence that was why you were double-crossed). Is there some link to him and game music or is he just a (bad) businessman? His transparent comment at FFSymphony indicating that he thought "Swing de Chcoobo" was the best piece of game music ever created made me laugh.

Anyway, I'm appalled to hear what you and SeRaPH have said. I do think it's important that people are made aware of the commercialism and deceit behind PLAY!, so thanks for being so courageously honest about this. It seems a pity that only those also intent on self-promotion have so far 'spoken out', though I appreciate there is also a 'humanistic' concern. It's little wonder people like Meiusta think as they do, though I do believe VGL and Eminence care about game music and their fans.

I'm not hostile towards VGL in any way. It sounds like a great event and very fun. However, I've always considered it to have unique merits from PLAY! and not a true 'symphonic game music concert' (hence 'I can't help but pity Eminence's members and feel that Western symphonic VGM concerts, Europe's aside, are temporarily doomed' was not intended to be degradatory towards VGL). Do you consistently employ use of professional symphony orchestras? Is Jack Wall as competent a conductor as Arnie Roth? Are all performances well-rehearsed ones? Is it a valid alternative to PLAY! for those who want it? Will the mainstream fan find it just as enjoyable as they might PLAY!?

Anyway, would like to publicly apologise for the naive comments that Jason hasn't deceived. In addition, having now heard one of their CDs, I'm glad to say that SeRaPH's lack of professionalism isn't synonymous with their musicality. Sorry if people feel I should mind my own business; probably true, but when I was arguably misled into promoting PLAY! and attending their Sweden concert, I feel somewhat bitter. Furthermore, when I see concerts with potential like Eminence acting self-degradatory, it makes me really worry about the state of VGM concerts in general. I hear contrasting things constantly from those and no longer really know what to believe, though I still retain the belief that PLAY! is a good and fun experience for mainstream game music fans. I'll be attending next summer's Leipzig concert, but don't think I'll be bothering with anything else.

Dear Mr. Maul,

First let me answer your questions about Video Games Live...

1. "Do you employ the use of professional symphony orchestras?"
Absolutely! In fact we have employed more professional symphony orchestras than anyone else who has ever done this. As stated above we launched our show with over 120+ musicians at the Hollywood Bowl with the Los Angeles Philharmonic. We came back this year to the Bowl with 120+ from the Hollywood Bowl Orchestra. We had over 130+ on stage with the prestigeous Houston Symphony. We played two nights with the Indianapolis Symphony, we played San Jose with the Symphony Silcon Valley (same orchestra that played the Dear Friends concert in San Francisco). Our next show in Brazil is with one of the best orchestras in South America the Petrobras Sinfonica (http://www.petrobrasinfonica.com.br/). We just announced new dates in January with the Edmonton Symphony & Mesa Symphony.

The real facts are that Play! tells people they use the best orchestras but in reality sometimes they use Arnie Roths company to hire contract musicians and then just puts a fancy name on them. How do we know this? Because Arnie Roth was working for Video Games Live before Play! (and in between Dear Friends). Not that there is anything wrong with using contract union musicians. If a particular symphony isn't available we will do the same thing. Our shows in Philadelphia & Toronto were done like this. We just don't make up fancy names or try to pass them off as something they aren't. Play! does use established symphonies as well. I'm not trying to take away anything from what they are doing. They used the Detroit Symphony, Arnie's own Chicagoland Pops, the National Symphony in Virgina, etc. But not ALL of thier concerts are done this way and that is fine. But what's appauling is when he constantly tries to trash us in the media about this when we have used more pro symphonies and he does the same contracting as we do sometimes?!?!

The bigger question is... Why would you think that we don't use professional orchestras? Ask yourself where you got this piece of information and who it came from. Now look at the facts I've presented before you. The fact that you may feel less of us and had to ask these questions of me honestly makes me feel sad. The false propaganda he has spread has actually influenced you to ask these questions. Well, I'm just glad you asked I guess. And please remember and keep in mind that I'm NOT here to try and put people down. This is all very uncomfortable for me... but if I am forced to defend our show with the facts because of what he has stated about that. I must do it for the good of our show.


2. "Is Jack Wall as competent a conductor as Arnie Roth?" Jack Wall has been conducted some of the finest orchestras in the world for over a decade. Not only in live performances but in many studio situations as well. Jack is a video game composer who knows the content and knows video games. He plays them, he is passionate about them and he is a brilliant conductor. Every orchestra we have played with has applauded Jack's abilities both in e-mails and in the media after our shows. Jack composed and conducted all the scores for the award winning Myst III & Myst IV games. His credentials and credits are unmatched in terms of what he has accomplished as a composer and conductor in the video game industry.

The other major challenge which Jack has to contend with during a show is the fact that he is also conducting to a click track system (which is always very difficult and takes a special kind and very talented conductor to pull off). This is how we automate and synchronize our lights, special fx and video. No other game concert has EVER done this because it is expensive and very difficult. We are proud to be able to offer this addition to our show experience.


3. "Are all performances well-rehearsed ones?" Why of course! We would cut a piece of music out of the show before not being 100% happy with the rehearsal. Feel free to read any of our reviews that have ever come out. Has there been pieces that were performed live that we weren't 100% happy with? Of course! We are perfectionists and hope that everything is always perfect... but these are live performances which is what makes them all so special. I would say that I'm usually happy 97% of the time. We rehearse with the orchestra anywhere from 3 hours to 20 hours!! It all depends on the skill level of each symphony. They all vary and the concert masters are always honest with the level of their team.


4. "It sounds like a great event and very fun. However, I've always considered it to have unique merits from PLAY! and not a true 'symphonic game music concert".

Yes! We are very unique in what we do. We combine the excitement and energy of a rock concert mixed with the power and emotion of a symphony orchestra combined together by the technology, interactivity, stunning visuals and fun that only video games can provide. This is not to say that the way others do it is wrong... of course it isn't. We're just unique and different and feel that because of our production we appeal to a much wider audience and demographic overall. More non-gamers come to our show not knowing what to expect and walk away with a new understanding and respect of video games. This is due in part not just because of the amazing music... but they see the incredible video and the stories they tell, they are facinated by the synchronized lighting and enthralled by the special fx. They are completely entertained by the interactive segments in our show when people come up on stage and play the game while the orchestra is playing and changing the score in real-time. They see the excitement and passion of the audience during the pre-show festival with things like the costume contest and gaming competitions.

I'm not sure I understand why you would think we are not a "true symphonic game music concert"... could you please explain your meaning in more detail? We do exactly what the others are doing (for the most part) with the addition of things like synchronized lights and video.

Again let me state clearly that anyone else who does it differently is no less or more than we are... just different. I LOVE the fact that VGM has gotten so popular that it's offering the audiences different choices and options. Heck! I say to everyone... PLEASE GO TO ALL OF THEM!! SUPPORT EVERYONE!! But it is difficult support "some" concerts when it seems that they are only interested in overcharging their fans and trash talking others in the media.





I am a very open and honest person and will answer any questions that are posed to me on this matter... but I must tell everyone that it makes me feel very uncomfortable to talk about these things in this manner. We focus on OUR show and not on others. As fans of the medium we applaud such things as Eminence and hope they are very successful now and in the future. We want as much attention on video game music as possible!! But if I am forced to answer questions like the ones above... I unfortunately must do it. If I didn't then my silence could be taken as if I'm trying to hide something... which I am not. I'd personally rather not answer any more questions regarding this. I want all of this untrue negative publicity thrown at us by them to stop. I wonder if this was one of the reasons why such a nice guy like Thomas Boecker decided to leave Play?

What would people here recommend we do? What would you do if you were in our situation?

Let me leave you with another interview quote from the national newspaper Washington Post in which they did a story on video game music concerts...


==================================

Tallarico said. "Video games are all about visuals; they're all about excitement; they're all about having fun."

Paul, for his part, complains that "Video Games Live" has hurt his business, and he finds the competition's approach annoying. "My whole goal is to keep the arts alive in a way that is classy," he said.

"We were on the verge of taking over the market," Paul said. "But because of the confusion they caused in the marketplace, I've had to scale back my vision. I can't afford a cancellation."

=====================================

Interesting quote considering we've been around 5 years and we've been playing our shows a full year before his. "Verge of taking over the market?" Why would anyone want to take over the market?? Aren't we only interested in spreading video game music as an art-form? Why would someone want to seemingly CRUSH the competition? Does this sound like someone interested in spreading video game music or just making money?

Sorry we "annoy" you so much Mr. Paul. Unfortunately you will either have to deal with your demons or leave the video game concert business altogether because as video game composers and people who are actually in the industry... this is our life mission and we are here to stay forever.



Tommy

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by niki

Heh. Then again why I never wish for the things I love to become huge commercial successes and come out of their relative obscurity. You know it's always the greedy buck makers who win over the genuinely passionate creators.

Don't worry... not in this instance!



By the end of this year we would have played in front of over 55,000 people so far. No one has come close to doing those kind of numbers. We are not going anywhere. Even when our tour got cancelled by Clear Channel last year we picked ourselves up and started planning new shows on our own again from scratch. Now we're bigger and better than ever and are doing it on our own with our own terms. We're here to stay.


Tommy

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by tetre

And Tommy, you've gained my utmost respect. As a soon-to-be Graduate of a Viola Performance and Composition Undergrad degree (with high interests in making game music accessable) - I'm glad that there is someone out there in the industry with a level-head and keen sense of humor. I'm now sad that I missed the Chicago concert when it came by (due to a vacation), since that's only a 4-hour drive, but I will be eagerly anticipating a stop by this area whenever a new tour schedule is released!

Thanks for the compliment. We'll be back in your area in 2007. Plans are already being made.

Thanks!


Tommy








Double Post:

Originally Posted by Mr. Maul

Tommy,


The true 'symphonic game music concert' bit came from hearing of a lack of performers on stage and how VGL utilised synth principally on some occasions.

Thanks for the response Mr. Maul. I can understand why you would mistakingly think and feel the way you do in regards to a "true symphonic" experience. The lies that Mr. Paul has spoken about us is of course (as usual) completely untrue and should be disregarded as nothing more than trying to give us a bad name. Yes, during 5 segments of Video Games Live we use a synth because that is exactly what the composers used originally when they composed the pieces! Tron, Metal Gear Solid, Halo, Beyond Good & Evil and Myst are the songs. But the synths are used in conjunction with the orchestra... not by themselves as Mr. Paul has falsely claimed in interviews.

If you read the VGL thread on these forums a poster just recently commented on how much better she enjoyed our performance of Metal Gear Solid as opposed to Play! That's because it would be difficult to recreate the original recording without the use of electronic drums, synths, etc. Many people have said the same exact thing about their Halo performance when compared to ours. Again... I think it's cool that the pieces are being performed and translated in different ways! The difference is that you'll never hear me say... "WE DO IT BETTER!! WE'RE RIGHT AND THEY SUCK!! THEY'RE UNPROFESSIONAL LOSERS AND FAILURES WHO ARE STEALING MY MARKET SHARE THAT IS RIGHTFULLY MINE!" Some may find the way we do things to be cool because we try to recreate the piece the way it was intentional played. Others may find it interesting to hear it completely symphonically with no electronics. Cool!! I personally prefer the way we do it which is why we do it that way. I'm not going to try and tear down Play! because they play a more acoustic version. Why would I? How is that helping to further VGM to the masses?? Too bad the Play! folks don't follow the same mentality.



Feel free to check out any of the 130+ videos of our show that you'll find on YouTube. Here's one of my favorites: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VTnNDCOWPU (although the audio on the camera/capture was off)


Tommy






Double Post:

Originally Posted by Meiusta

'he gave his perspective on the topic'. i have a hard time beliving that everything he said MUST be right suddenly. no offense, t. t., i would not trust jason michel paul or whoevr. both of you are too much into promoting your own thign. t. t. obviously is very very clever in doing so.

Please understand that my intention was NOT to promote Video Games Live in this discussion and I don't feel I have done so. My intention was to DEFEND the lies and misinformation that Play! has spread.

I listed FACTS and not opinions regarding this matter. There shouldn't be any kind of discussion as to why you should or shouldn't believe me. Remember the points I made...

1. Why does he lie on the front page of his site? Not my opinion... FACT.

2. Why does he lie about the size of our show? Not my opinion... FACT.

3. Why are his ticket prices so high when clearly they don't need to be. Not my opinion... FACT.

4. Why did he announce on his website that he was playing with the Indianapolis Symphony? Not my opinion... FACT.


It's not a question of believing me or not... It's just a question of clicking on those links I provided and making a descision based on what Play! themselves have said. I don't think that should be constrewed as me being a "double agent" or "clever marketing genius"... I'm just trying to defend all of the hard work & passion that people like ourselves, Emminence & Thomas Boecker put into promoting VGM and how easily Play! tries to tear it down because they unfairly view everyone else as competition and they want to "crush" and "dominate" us all.

Good luck! He's got a LONG way to go!! Hope he's in for the long haul cause we'll be doing this and promoting VGM for the rest of our lives as I have done for the past 16+ years.


Tommy

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Mr. Maul

Tommy,

Thanks for the reply.

The explanation of the synth issue is appreciated. It makes me feel much more about VGL as a symphonic experience. I'm amazed about the misinformation going around. I'll be sure to check out YouTube to hear for myself.

As I've previously said, I might be going to VGL in London (really hope so), though I'm not sure if it'll clash with the biggest university of the year. I'd really like to experience it and will hopefully like it. Even if I don't, at least I'll be less naive and confused.

I still find it regrettable all this surfaced in a public forum that has a lot of big personalities and plenty of piracy (no offence to Gamingforce). I truly believe there could have been a better way for you to clear up all the misinformation or for the truth about Jason to get out. All this fighting between PLAY!, Eminence, and VGL surely compromises a lot of people (fans, composers, and performers alike) and certainly doesn't do the image of VGM much good. However, I agree that the actions of Jason have often been unacceptable and am glad to have been made aware of them. It's just a shame that nobody is going to come out of this affair too well.

Yo!,

If you end up coming to the London show please let me know so we can meet up.

I honestly don't believe in my heart that the VGM image is going to be hurt by any of this. True passion and love for what people do will win out in the end and come across in each and every performance. Yes, it's a shame that certain people feel the need to try and tarnish others... but putting on performances in front of tens of thousands of people each year has a much greater impact than someone trash talking on an internet forum or some website interview.

The music, show, audience and performance is what really matters. We feel very proud and confident that the show we have put together is special, unique and very enjoyable for a mass audience as well as the hardcore fans. At the end of the day... if people enjoy it... that's all that matters. Ultimately, what one person says negatively about the rest of us will have no bearing on the success of each individual producer/show.

Thanks again for keeping an open mind and please make sure to let me know if you'll be attending the London event.


Tommy

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Kairi Li

Its sad to hear the deciet that went on at Play!, despite temptations to see it (They DO have alot of licence to alot of franchise, my boyfriend was little disappointed when VGL changed the program and Castlevania was cut, and my god if I had heard Akira played SH2...), I rather not support it, and since my boyfriend and his friends, as well as I, are trying to get into the game industry, we at least know what to stay clear of now.

Thanks for the support Kairi! Glad ya liked the show. Just to clarify... we haven't cut Castlevania out of our show... we just didn't play it at the Bowl again this year to make room for some of the new stuff like Halo 3, Civilization IV, Space Invaders, LucasArts guys, etc.

We always try to mix it up especially when we return to the same place twice. It's tough cause there is so much great stuff out there! We also didn't play EverQuest II & Beyond Good & Evil at this years Bowl show.

The next couple of shows we're doing in Brazil will have Castlevania.

Thanks again for the kind words and support! Wish you would have come up and said hi. Next time!


Tommy

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Kairi Li

And having David Hayter introducing the concert was genius. Advantages of a VG show in LA huh?

Hahahahahaa!! Yeah!! And the creator of Tron too!!

David Hayter and his wife had such a good time that he recorded the intro of Snake introducing me so we can play it at all our shows!!

He's a super cool guy!!!


Tommy

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Mithrandir

Wow, I wasn't aware of all of this and I was quite surprised to learn about all of this on GFF instead of other more "official" sites.

I have to say that I was among the ones who paid 140$ to see the show in Toronto. Not only that, it was an 8-hour drive from my city and I had to stay at a hotel to be able to watch the show. It was quite an expensive trip. And I am surprised to hear that with all this 140$, he wasn't able to pay for the composers plane tickets, they hired a kids choir, they made people pay to have authographs...but I think the worst thing was in fact that crappy Dear Friends CD which was a best off but, with synth....I would have expected an orchestral music CD...oh well...

The show was great (as I like orchestral VGM), I wasn't deceived by it but now that I know all of this, it's kind of upsetting.

So hopefully I'll get my hands on good seats for VGL in Montreal (which makes it only a 2 1/2 hour drive from my city). And from what I read, VGL is more affordable compared to Play!.

So any dates for VGL in Montreal yet?

Hi!,

Our possible date for Montreal is in the fall. We are just figuring out the best venue and location to have the event. What would be your suggestion?

We're also going to do Toronto again in 2007.


Tommy

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?