Holocaust Deniers Gather in Iran

Originally Posted by Devoxycontin

So creationists shouldn't be allowed to speak? People who deny the moon landing shouldn't be allowed to speak? Who defines what is truth and what is fact? When do governments get to decide what "can't be discussed" ever?

Yes. Yes. Me. When I'm elected.

Any other questions?

Seriously though, although I don't know if it's really a big issue here in the US, I support European laws forbidding nazi talk and holocaust denial. I assume those are against the laws because I heard it somewhere. I don't think it's a big deal here in the US because, although we have deniers and skinheads, we didn't have the holocaust here.

I think it's incredibly offensive when people use "everyone has a right to their opinion" to defend deliberate, racist lying. It's an opinion if every nazi was a baby-raper or not; it's not an opinion that millions of jews died in goddamn ovens.

lurker for super-perma-admin 2007

Jam it back in, in the dark.

To be fair, niki, a lot of people in the US say that they are merely questioning the safety of abortions, for example, and then bust out a bunch of bullshit about how abortions will give you cancer. The same thing happens with evolution, with global warming, lots of things. Basically that's the reason for the cynicism, well that and

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"We are testing the belief that the Holocaust occurred, and that if it did, exactly how many jews died in it's duration."

Ifs speak louder than other words. Call me pedantic if you want, I'm just having a hard time believing that they won't come to some startling revelation that only a few hundred thousand jews died if anything.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Ulysses

As I said, but you people are deftly ignoring, the whole point is to piss you off. I'd say it's a glorious victory to Iran so far. Iranians are amongst the most highly educated populations in the world, and they inhabit lands where human civilisation first took root after thousands of years of nomadism; a country that was a seat of learning and scientific advancement for centuries. Their leader is a wily schemer who knows how to push your buttons. Do not make the mistake of assuming that they're stupid, because they are not. It is a (frankly not that subtle) attempt to get you riled up, and it succeeded.

Consider an internet forum socially engineered, then. That Iran is always out to get Gamingforce!

oh my god, that explains devilgobox!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Ulysses

We won't go back to lynchings not because there are laws in place to specifically stop an organisation intent on commiting those acts, but because there are already in place very old laws. MURDER IS A CRIME.

That's wonderful. Did I mention lynching jews? Because I didn't. I just said that it's reasonable to be offended at something you yourself said was intended to be offensive.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

There should never be limits to freedom of speech, period.

shouting fire in a theater, slander/libel, etc.

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David Duke, former Grand Wizard of the KKK and Louisiana politician

also lol

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

But it's not fair.

That's really a shame, isn't it? Yep, a cryin' shame.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Bradylama

The logical conclusion to Holocaust denial is that Holocaust survivors are either liars or wrong. [...] doesn't constitute libel or slander unless the claim is being made that Holocaust survivors are dirty liars.

Well, there you go, then.

There is no just sayin' when it comes to genocide.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Shouting fire in a theater falls in line with inciting riots, and could constitute conspiracy to commit manslaughter. We have no criminal slander or libel laws. Libel suits are made in order to extract compensation for damages caused by malicious misrepresentation.

Either you have limits on free speech or you do not. You cannot have it both ways.

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Yeah, if you edit my post that way it falls into line real easy like, however what one can conclude from Holocaust denial, and what is being claimed in Holocaust denial literature are seperate.

There is no just sayin' in genocide.

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People could conclude that Republicans are all a bunch of corrupt pedo-protectors after the page leaks, but it didn't make every reporter in the country guilty of libel against the Republican Party.

That's because although people could conclude that, most people did not, because that is not a reasonable logical leap. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference.

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There's no danger of misrepresentation because being a holocaust survivor isn't like wearing a yellow star or purple rectangle.

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By enforcing criminal libel you're making a form of expression illegal, and that doesn't fly with me at the very least.

Then vote someone in to change the laws.

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Originally Posted by Bradylama

I've just given you legal definitions of inciting public unrest and the actual function of libel and slander.

Without criminal prosecution of slander and libel, there is no limitation to the freedom of speech at the governmental level.

Again, inciting riots due to speech is still a control on freedom of speech. Just because it isn't a very large one doesn't negate its existance.

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Like the disputes concerning the Armenian Genocide, which are causing debate in France because of Armenian lobbies, or the reluctance of Western Powers and the UN to intervene in Rwanda because "it's not like we don't want to help, I'm just sayin we don't know if there's a genocide or not yet."

Bitch please.

Like to see you point out where I said any of that was good or dandy, nigger.

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You could've fooled me considering everything I heard from people I see at school and from my own family.

Personal ancedotes aren't very good statistical evidence.

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Irregardless of any logical leap, if a party isn't directly being misrepresented in a literature, then you have no grounds for a libel case, and no, body tattoos aren't like wearing the yellow stars, because Holocaust survivors wear the very long-sleeved clothing the fellow in your picture wear to hide them, in order to live normal lives without people pitying them all the time.

wow

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I couldn't. I'm not German. So what if I'm making ethnocentric value judgements? I'm the one advocating freedom of expression here.

That's really tough titties that you can't do anything about another country's laws.

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Originally Posted by Bradylama

It doesn't have to be. That's the whole point of freedom of expression. "Good" and "bad" are subjective judgements, and determining whether or not an opinion is good, bad, harmful, or even proper is dependant on perspective.

That's not what I'm saying, and that argument makes no sense when what I"m saying is that there is no just sayin' in genocide. Why don't you show me some other groups of people who just say re: genocide so I can tell them that they are wrong to as well?

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Of course not, but then Holocaust denial literature doesn't cause logical conclusions that Holocaust survivors are liars, it simply means that Holocaust survivors are wrong, something that is, believe it or not, debateable.

You would be comfortable saying that all holocaust denial accuses jews of merely being mistaken, and not accusing them of any wrongdoing?

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Yeah, wow, Holocaust survivors don't turn their ordeal into their primary status.

Are you suggesting that only black people can be libeled, I'm not sure where exactly you're going with this yellow star argument.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?