Sex. Before or after?

Originally Posted by Technophile

However, I have some friends that swear up and down that they've had relationships that started with a different order of events.

[...]

So my question(s) to you guys is(err...are), do you think that just sex can lead to an actual and decent relationship?

Look at your friends' relationships and judge for yourself.

Of course you can have a decent relationship if you fuck on the first date. What sort of question is this? Most people do not find each other repulsive after having sex, I don't understand why you would have a problem with this issue. from the sound of your post, you don't quite understand why you have this issue either.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Technophile

I guess you completely blacked out during the part where I said

my issue with the latter order of events is that you're basically applying emotional attachment to what can very easily be just a night of sex for the other person and nothing more.

not at all. You must've forgotten saying this:

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Rather than good chemistry induced friendship though, they got good chemistry induced sex instead, which led to friendship which then led to a relationship.

Which sounds about right to me. People don't stop developing relationships with someone once they have sex, and furthermore it's hella faulty to think the only interaction these two people have is sexual. They admit and you admit that they were friends before becoming an item; the only difference is that they are also fuckbuddies during the time. What's the disconnect here?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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once again, if all person-A wants is a sexual encounter and isn't interested in person-B's everything else, what will happen after the sex? Person-A will pretty much find no reason to hang around. (Till maybe in the future when the desire for round-2 comes back.) Now this is all well and fine. However, if person-B went into this hoping and expecting a full out relationship that's suppose to start from that one sexual encounter, then there's the problem!

Then B is deluding himself by thinking there is a relationship there, and if he is bothered by this, should probably stop the encounters. I know you're trying to paint A as opportunistic, but B is the one who's making something out of nothing, here.

Do you feel that your friends are all B?

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Also, if you go this route you never know what the other person's sexual history is and what little, surprise gifts you may end up with.

B has no one to blame but himself if he doesn't use condoms.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Look, the point is this: do you know people who have had successful relationships that started off differently than your ideal? IF so, then you have proven that your ideal is not the be-all. It doesn't matter how much scorn you have for sluts or for relationships that aren't marriage-bound.

And you can have breaking condoms and STDs in relationships started by your model. Do you think that people who only have sex in the confines of a relationship don't have sex with many partners - what I'm trying to say is, do you think every relationship is a several-year long affair? Or that a cock-hungry slut will be granted some primitive immunity from STDs by only sleeping with her men once they've had a few dates? I'm not sure where you're trying to go with that whole STD thing, other than Bad Things Happen To Bad People. That's extremely judgemental of you, when you admit that you don't know a whole lot about other kinds of relationships in the first place.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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I know people yes. But, given the circumstances, I don't know much about how good or bad their relationships are.

It doesn't matter if your friends are willing to subject themselves to relationships they are not quite happy in. If they were unhappy enough to leave, they would leave; otherwise, I don't know, it must be a 'successful' relationship. Any more arguing over it is a kinda creepy attempt at rationalizing your morality with this sort of thing - it sounds kinda like you want to get into a quality of relationship pissfight. Why do you want to do that?

I was speaking idiomatically.

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First I'm judgemental, and now I wanna pissfight? Sheesh, what's with you and these outta-nowhere-assumptions?

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Depends on what you mean by "sucessful". There are lots of scenarios where someone would remain in an unfullfilling relationship. Sometimes, people will delude themselves into thinking the other person will change for the better, or love them, or that they'll grow to love them, so they stay. Some people are just afraid of being alone or single, they'll also stay. Others can fall in a sense of complacency and ,like the ones previously stated, will stay despite the unrewarding relationship. So, if by "successful" you merely mean that the relationship is still going regardless of how unrewarding it is, then I guess it is safe to call my few friends with the "sex-first relationship" relationships "successfull". Again, given the circumstances that I explained to you above, I don't really have a grasp of how happy they are with their significant others.

Until your friends have broken up and told you all the ways you were absolutely right and they were absolutely wrong, it is downright condesending to tell me that they are probably victims at the mercy of their significant others. I'm sorry that you do not respect your friends' intelligence all that much.

I do like how you tell me my assumption was wrong right after having the quality of relationship pissfight. That's not how it normally works, sir.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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Leave my friends out of this.

You're the one who keeps bringing them up. I say, "if your very friends were able to start a relationship this way, then it is entirely possible to start a relationship this way." But you say "No, that's not good enough for me!" You mention your friends' experiences in the same breath as mentioning a dim kid who has no sense of self-preservation; you are drawing a very clear line and you can't fault me for calling you on it.

The point is, either it is entirely possible for such a relationship to start, or you feel that every single last one of your friends have retarded maturity and severe co-dependancy problems. It's your choice.

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Second, examining, discussing, heck, even debating, about a certain type of relationships is not a pissfight.

Too bad you aren't doing precisely that.

FELIPE NO

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I established in a previous post that I feel that, while a decent relationship certainly can start this way, it's just a riskier undertaking.

And then you listed a bunch of things all relationships can come afoul of, none of which are intrinsically based on how you two met.

Actually, looking back on your posts, I didn't see any admission that I was right, unless you're counting the "I guess it could happen, maybe..." that you put in the first post. I'm hard pressed to see why this thread was even created if you admit you are wrong in the very first post.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Sufferers of unrequited love everywhere would probably disagree with you. Not to say that neither are a bunch of retards.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

No, rote quickies are possible in the confines of long-term relationships too.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Technophile

Again, my point is because such grandiose festivities and wonders will not commence when cherries are popped, it'd be risky for someone who wants sex served with some sort of an emotional connection with the other person, to just give it up within the first 3 hours that he or she spent actually talking to his/her crush or attractive stranger.

Wait, what, no. We're discussing people of sexual maturity making sexually mature decisions while knowing the range of consequences they're suffering. At no time did anyone before you suggest that the people who have sex before making a relationship with that person were virgins, and for god's sake why do you keep bringing up the Manipulative Dick, I thought I told you to stop entertaining the straw men.

Originally Posted by Technophile

Only when they apply such conditions to casual sex.

Originally Posted by Technophile

This isn't about making sex to be some sacred ritual that cannot be used for merely recreational purposes.

CAUGHT IN YOUR OWN WEB OF LIES

Why do people keep bringing up virginity when discussing sex? It's like, they won't even leave you alone about that.

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Originally Posted by Technophile

First of all, when and how?

Me, after about five or so posts of "either your friends' relationships happened, or they're liars and easily manipulated". See, your lack of experience here doesn't refer to things merely sexual, although that is readily apparent; it refers to your lack of esteem for your friends' intelligence. You never trusted them to make good choices, and it's obvious now, that they've so-called 'bonded' with people after only a mere shag, where you're willing to know the total person before you bare your legs to them. As part of your lack of experience in common human decency, you'll deny this; it's typical for the flawed and the mundane to not notice anything was wrong. But if you were right, why does everyone around you say otherwise? That's some food for thought, right there.

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Actually, those statements don't contradict eachother and I still stand by both of them.

You wouldn't know a contradiction if it had a one-night stand with your mother.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Technophile

Being a gay male, I have the advantage of not having to uncover the grand mysteries of the vagina that are so elusive to most males. I already know how my partner's genitalia will work.

I'm sure you'll give excellent blowjobs, having given yourself so many in the past.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Technophile

Oh, right that. All you did was say "EITHER YOU AGREE WITH YOUR FRIEND'S METHODS OR THEY'RE ALL IDIOTS".

No, I said with considerably more restraint and tact that either you agree that your friends' methods exist or that they were all emotionally manipulated like you kept suggesting. Why do you try to rewrite history when the entire thread is readily available to viewing? We can all read the first page, sir.

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Cause what works for one person, has to work for everyone else! I wouldn't call that "discrediting" so much as making things black or white when there's a good chunk of grey there.

It is so to laugh.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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When did I deny that their methods don't exist? I just stated my issues with it. Meaning what about them doesn't work for me.

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I guess it's possible for circumstances to unfold that way. [...] do you think that just sex can lead to an actual and decent relationship?

From then on to the point you submit that it's entirely possible that it can happen. No, you did not admit that the entire time, I was there and I was paying attention. Your continual mischaracterization of the conversation proves you weren't, which doesn't offend me any but doesn't do anything positive for your reputation.

FELIPE NO

Look, I think the real question everyone here has is, where do you get off making value judgements on things you have no practical experience with? You cherrypick and use hella loaded words, for what reason? How do you benefit by looking down on situations that you just invented?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Technophile

I'm not really sure what exactly it was that I said that makes it seem like I look down upon people who are more casual when it comes to sex.

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But, my issue with the latter order of events is that you're basically applying emotional attachment to what can very easily be just a night of sex for the other person and nothing more.

The first sin: Ignorance.

Originally Posted by Technophile

But I honestly don't.

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There are lots of scenarios where someone would remain in an unfullfilling relationship. Sometimes, people will delude themselves into thinking the other person will change for the better, or love them, or that they'll grow to love them, so they stay. Some people are just afraid of being alone or single, they'll also stay. Others can fall in a sense of complacency and ,like the ones previously stated, will stay despite the unrewarding relationship. So, if by "successful" you merely mean that the relationship is still going regardless of how unrewarding it is, then I guess it is safe to call my few friends with the "sex-first relationship" relationships "successfull".

The second sin: Insincerity.

Originally Posted by Technophile

All I've done (or at least attempted to do so) was take their experience, and just apply them to me and my values in a "what if" sort of mentality, and list my issues with them. My issues, when they're applied to me.

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I just think that it's a risky act. It can have a lot of extra unwated feelings attached to it or leave you wanting something that was never there if the conditions aren't clearly drawn out beforehand.

The third sin: Ego.

Originally Posted by Technophile

I really don't think I need to actually have sex in order to do this.

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Also, if you go this route you never know what the other person's sexual history is and what little, surprise gifts you may end up with.

The fourth sin: Lust.

Originally Posted by Technophile

I'm very happy for my friends if it's working for them.

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Two of my friends in this situation have semi-long term relationships where the other person is in town about 5 months outta the entire year, while my other friend's in a totally differen town with her b/f

The fifth sin: Lack of respect.

Originally Posted by Technophile

But just because it does so for them, it doesn't mean that it will for me as well.

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I already know how my partner's genitalia will work.

The final sin: Lack of forsight.

The extra sin is sodomy, as in what you like (because you hate girls now) and what we like to do to you. Come, now. Become sodomy.

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