The Immigration Protests

Watts, I disagree with you in regards to your statement that the situation cannot be changed, regardless of any actions taken to improve border security. If one were to employ unmanned planes to patrol the borders and then have national guard strike units that respond to anything detected by them, this would allow for a more secure border, without overly thining out the national guard as it could then be reserved only as a responsive measure, while the actual border would be one maintained by a strong presence of reconnaissance units, requiring far less personel to maintain.

In addition to this, as it has been mentioned how desperately people from south of the border wish to come to this country, I think cracking down more on employers for hiring illegals would also help in that it would undermine much of the incentive for crossing the border to begin with. When combined with a much more solid border patrol as detailed above, the willingness of people to enter the United States illegally would go way down, since not only would it be much harder, but the benefits of successfully entering would also be greatly diminished. While one or the other of these measures by themselves may not get the job done, I think the combination would be effective in stemming the tide of illegal immigration.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I think, Maxwell, that the attitudes on this board are a representation of people's frustration with illegal immigration, not immigration as a whole. Telling everyone that their frustration with illegal immigration is nothing short of racism/xenophobia is inaccurate, because one does not necessarily have to be either of these things to be against illegally crossing the boarder.

For instance, let's say that there's a family that immigrated to the United States legally, which for them would probably mean jumping through quite a few hoops. Now, don't you think that this family might be a little annoyed at the sight of other people cheating the process that they had to struggle through and just sneaking across the border? It's akin to there being two people getting an A in a class, with one studying hard while the other one bringing in a cheat sheet, but with both acing the test.

Sure, you might say that illegal immigrants are desperate people who take desperate measures. I wouldn't argue with that. We're all rationale actors in this political/economic game, who are ultimately trying to further our own interests. But by the same token, the same is true of the kid who cheats on his test. He might very well be holding down a job to help support his single mom and the rest of his family, while going through school. But should he get caught by the teacher while cheating on his test, this fact will matter very little. Because rationalized or no, cheating the process (be it on a test, immigration process, or whatever) is still a slap in the face of those who respect the process and choose to work their way through it.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

You might think the process is ridiculous, but is it any different in other countries?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Fuck you and your "earned" citizenship, you didn't do anything more than sit in your mother's womb for nine months.

Are you saying that no form of entitlement should be passed down from parents to their children? By logical extension of your rationale here, one could make a case against inheritance of any kind.

The world is unfair, and some people are given a harder role in life than others. Regardless of whether the United States opens her borders or not, this fact will not change. Now, maybe it is a valid concern that immigration policies for the United States are too rigid; I cannot say for certain. However, I suspect that the United States' immigration policies are no more rigid than the rest of the world's. Rather than our policies being unfair, I think what really gets under people's skin is what you just said: that the United States is filled with a bunch of people who didn't earn their comfortable lifestyle, and that it therefore is perfectly fair for others who are less fortunate to resort to illegal means if necessary to get their piece of the pie.

How ya doing, buddy?

It is not a slippery slope. As you say, the parents choose what to give their children as their inheritance. So, too, does society as a whole, through its government and its laws, decide what to give those who are born within its confines--which includes granting default citizenship.

And I'm still amazed at how people seem to disregard the fact that it isn't just the United States that has immigration policies.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by gukarma

We have overly restrictive policies

Again, couldn't this be said for other countries as well? For instance, in Japan, non-Japanese are not given full citizenship rights, which has led to particular problems in regards to Japan's Korean community and on the whole is a problem for anyone not of Japanese descent who decides to live in Japan (source). And remember, this is for anyone living in Japan, legal or not.

But hey, let's not stop there. What about France, that shining beacon of liberal policies? Like most countries in the immediate aftermath of World War II, it welcomed in large numbers of immigrants, but with the fuel crisis of the 1970s, it reversed this policy focusing on curbing migration, unlike the United States which actually is comparitively welcoming of immigrants, with organized business and ethnic interests lobbying for expansive immigration legislation, which cannot be said for France (source). And finally, to really tie things in, as noted in the article cited, "France and the European Union today are witnessing the same perverse effects that the US experienced along its Mexican border, where new restrictions in some states only redirected flows to others, and raised the price of illegal passage."

The problem of illegal immigration is certainly not limited to the United States. Japan and Europe as a whole, as indicated above, also have restrictive policies, and in fact are, in some cases, more restrictive than the United States. Thus, this problem is not one localized to the United States by any measure. However, as the article quote indicates, the problem, while widespread, is not one that has as of yet had any clear answer. Restrictions put in place have so far only redirected the illegal flow to other, less guarded regions, which seems to suggest that a rethinking of how to guard borders more uninformally is necessary in order to adequately handle this problem.

Originally Posted by gukarma

Also, it is not like immgrants are stealing those jobs from anyone: recently I heard on NPR that immigrants instead HELP the economy by making services more acceptable.

First, we're discussing illegal immigration, not immigration as a whole.

Second, other countries have those same sorts of "undesirable" jobs. How do they manage to keep things going without a steady stream of desperate Mexicans to do the jobs for them? For that matter, how do regions of the United States lacking in illegal immigrants handle their menial tasks? I'll tell you. When no one wants to do a very necessary job for the going wage, the wage rises until someone is willing to. And someone is always willing, if the price is right. The thing about illegal immigrants is that they are more desperate for work than most, given that they aren't exactly eligable for our welfare programs what with, you know, being here illegally. So they work dirt-cheap. I guess it's cool if you own a farm or sweatshop, or want your house/yard taken care of for next to nothing, but it's inaccurate to say that these jobs would go unfilled if the illegal population just disappeared one day.

Third, as for the benefits of it lowering the cost of labor, you have to realize that this benefit also has a cost in that it raises unemployment among the working class and thus makes it more difficult for people in the lower income bracket to afford anything, let alone having someone clean their house or weed their yard (for further information, see: Rising black-Latino clash on jobs).

Originally Posted by gukarma

They only want to clean your shit and cook your food, it's not like they are out there for world domination.

No one's saying that. What does concern people is that there is a massive body of people who are here illegally and who are displacing jobs from the working class (which means increased likelihood of crime). Also, with the waving of Mexican flags at recent rallies, sentiments have further deteriorated. Admit it; it's not exactly the greatest way to express a willingness to integrate into American society, now is it?

How ya doing, buddy?

I mentioned other countries because it was mentioned that the United States has overly restrictive policies. My response to this is that, relatively speaking, the United States actually has less restrictive policies than many other countries. I am not suggesting that the United States base its policies on that of other countries. My point, rather, is that criticizing the United States for having harsh standards for immigration when we actually have relatively open ones is inaccurate not to mention unfair.

I might also add that, while you criticize me for not crafting my arguments on United States policy for its own merit, you have ignored several arguments that I actually made to this effect--i.e. the degredation of wages for manual labor jobs; the elimination of jobs from other working class groups.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by PUG1911

I always assumed that those saying that the US policies are overly restrictive mean that it is more strict than is 'appropriate' for it's situation.

And that's why I included my reasons for why I believe that it is appropriate.

As I said, mentioning other countries isn't meant to prove that immigration is a problem. It's merely a response to what I feel is a general criticism of United States policies (earlier there was criticism of the United States not having enough social programs, in addition to our immigration policies being considered unfair). Maybe it was irrelevent to the main discussion, but I'm pretty tired of people from other countries complaining about the stench of United States policies when there's plenty of sewage in their own backyards.

Originally Posted by PUG1911

I can see that it increases the number of people gunning for low end jobs, but I don't see how this has any specific impact on other 'groups', or at least, it shouldn't.

I linked this article before, but maybe you didn't see it. In any case, it would seem that the black community is not that happy with the state of affairs.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20060525/ts_csm/atension

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by PUG1911

The US does get a lot of flack regarding it's policies, some of it undeserved. That other countries have their own problems, again, doesn't seem relevant when the discussion is clearly centered around the US.

It does when people try to single out the United States as some kind of horrible country with no sympathy for others' plights. Anyway, I'm just repeating myself now, so whatever. If you think it's irrelevent, that's fine, but I believe I have now thoroughly explained myself on this point.

Originally Posted by PUG1911

Why would the employers favour hispanics over blacks?

It's not that the employer is favoring hispanics over blacks. It's that he's favoring desperate illegal immigrants, who are willing to work for dirt cheap wages (i.e. below minimum wage), over everyone else. It makes sense why an employer would do this, as he wants to maximise his profits, but this is one central reason why illegal immigration is such a problem.

In any case, I think CetteHamsterLa's post illustrates this point far better than I can.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Egad. That is the first problem, finding a group to express it's concern over it does not a second point make.

Why? It's an actual example of a group of people who are frustrated over the situation caused by illegal immigration. Is CetteHamsterLa's personal experience with the minimum wage problem also invalidated because he is not a representative of everyone?

Anyway, whatever, if you don't like specific examples, fine. We'll stay on generalities only. We have minimum wage. Illegals will work for less than minimum wage, thereby undermining it. You seem to recognize this point, but have an answer for it, so I'll move on from here.

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So really, the 'amnesty' proposed would address the issues regarding minimum wage, and the displacement of other working class people *IF* they find a way to make it work and curtail illegal immigration in favour of legal immigration.

If all the illegals here now are given amnesty, don't you think that this would send a clear message to others that if they come here illegally, they will, given time, also be given the same reward?

I think that it would, and that's precisely the type of precedent that will encourage illegal immigration on an even greater scale than it is at now, not to mention encourage the use of future such amnesty programs to be put into effect.

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Sure it's effects have been less than pleasant in recent years with the Spanish vs. English communications issues, but if you don't adopt any official language(s), then everyone is going to consider themselves to have a freedom of language choice.

Unless everyone in the US becomes bilingual (which would be nice, but let's be realistic, with the current education system, this just isn't feasible), I see the language gap to be a major problem when it comes to national unity.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by PUG1911

I'm still not sure why this unity is all that important. I mean, is there a significant downside to having, for lack of a better term, Spanish states, as long as they still hold to the roughly accepted ideals of what it is the be American?

Unity on general principles of language and culture is important in that it tends to overlap into other such ideals such as what it is to be American. Of course, I'm aware that some degrees of division already occur with the existence of culturally based communities (e.g. Chinatown, Little Tokyo, Little Italy, etc.), but these divisions are relatively small as they are contained to regions with cities, rather than taking over entire states. On a state level, I think major differences in ideology are a problem.

Originally Posted by PUG1911

Making language(s) official would go a long way to even starting on the language issues.

Actually, I agree with you here, in the sense that I think establishing English as the official language of the United States would be benefitial to taking a firmer stance in encouraging immigrants to adopt English.

Adopting two official languages, however, would be a problem unless the education system was significantly changed so that Spanish was taught right from kindergarden.

Originally Posted by PUG1911

If wages were raised back to where they need to be by law, and legal immigration were a more attractive (easier) option, why would they come illegally?

Given that the United States already seems to be relatively open to immigrants, just how open are we supposed to become? I think some people will not ever be satisfied until the United States has opened its borders to all.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.