The Middle East spirals out of control!

This pretty much is an open war already and its only profiteers are Hezbollah, Hamas and their supporters in Damascus and Teheran.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Bush needs to finally come up with a definite stance on the subject. He's urging Israel to stop bombing Lebanon back to the middle ages while at the same time justifying their actions in 'defending' their country (on foreign soil).

I'm also irritated that kidnapping a few people now serves as a legitimate reason to wage war on a sovereign country. Israel might think otherwise, but most Lebanese people don't even support Hezbollah and yet, they are the ones suffering for their actions while the Hezbollah is happily firing their Katjusha rockets towards Israel with a comprehensible reason. It's such a tragedy.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by packrat

It seems to me that, for all intents and purposes, the militant branches of Hezbolla are similar to an independent militia.

No, they are not. Mainly because the Hezbollah nowadays isn't just a military organization anymore (it was actually founded to repell the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon in 1982), but a political one with strong (inofficial) ties to the Lebanese government in Beirut.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Stealth

So they hold 23 seats in Lebanese Parliament unofficially?

You could argue that their influence goes well beyond these 23 seats. Unofficially. ;-)

Still, I doubt that the Lebanese government is to be directly blamed for the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. The majority of seats in the Lebanese Parliament is still held by moderate Christians opposing the Hezbollah, btw.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by sgt_flippy

i am from isreal and is a great place we try to live in this horror
ok

So what's your stance on the attacks on Lebanon? The civilians there sure have to live in horror just as well.
ok

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

The Lebanese can't be faulted for their impotence, but this is what happens when you let terrorists develop a stronger military than your own, and your immediate neighbor would sooner recognize their sovereignty than yours.

That's perfectly correct, but let's not forget the fact that the Hezbollah is a home-made threat created by Israel. If it wasn't for the occupation of Lebanon in 1982, Hezbollah would probably never have gained the support and influence it has today. If anything, the deliberate invasion of Lebanon serves as the ultimate reason for Hezbollah's existence and will even help it in gaining momentum.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

How do you expect anyone but "rogue countries" to step in with all the support Israel gets from the U.S.?

FELIPE NO

Quote:

Whatever it's like i just want people to consider more sources other than CNN, please.

So are you suggesting we should watch Fox News instead? Keep in mind that CNN is one of the rather liberal networks in the U.S. and I've found their reporting to be neutral, fair and honest.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Quote:

Israeli air raid kills 50, troops cross border to attack Hizbollah

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Israel unleashed fierce air strikes on Lebanon on Wednesday, killing 49 civilians and a Hizbollah fighter, as boats and buses left Beirut laden with thousands of foreigners fleeing the eight-day-old conflict.

Israeli troops crossed the border to raid Hizbollah posts and Al Arabiya television said two Israeli soldiers had been killed and two wounded in clashes with the Shi'ite guerrillas.

(...)

Despite international diplomatic efforts, there was no sign Israel or its Lebanese Shi'ite foes were ready to heed the Beirut government's pleas for an immediate halt to a war that has cost at least 285 lives in Lebanon and 25 in Israel.

(...)

At least 12 Lebanese, including several children, were killed and 30 wounded in an Israeli air strike that destroyed several houses in the southern village of Srifa, residents said.

(...)

FOREIGNERS FLEE

At least 37 other civilians were killed in air strikes that hammered other parts of south and east Lebanon, security sources said. Hizbollah said one of its fighters was killed.

(...)

Acting Interior Minister Ahmed Fatfat said Israel was trying to destroy Lebanon's infrastructure, not just to defeat Hizbollah. "Are they turning it into a second Iraq?" he asked.

(...)

The conflict has forced about 100,000 Lebanese to flee their homes. Panicked foreigners have flooded out of the country.

"It's very bad, very sad, I can't believe what's happening," said a tearful Lubna Jaber, an Australian who had come to visit relatives in Lebanon. She was waiting in downtown Beirut with about 350 compatriots to board buses and then a ferry to Turkey.

Source: reuters.com

Pictures of destroyed residential areas in Beirut:





I think the invasion of Lebanon is a big mistake. If anything, Hizbollah can't be crushed by these attacks. They have plenty of space to retreat. The Israeli army can't just sweep through the whole of Lebanon or even cross the border to Syria.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I'll not go into a quote war with your post (although I'm sure others will), but I have this one question to ask:

Do you honestly think that this war will help improve your situation at all? Don't you think that the military actions in Lebanon serve as the ultimate justification for Hezbollah's very existence? Even if you choose to invade Lebanon with ground troops, Hezbollah has plenty of room to retreat. You won't crush the idea behind this organization with military power! Meanwhile, Israel's real problem - the Palaestininans - remains unsolved.

Don't get me wrong, the constant abductions are inexcusable, but making the Lebanese people suffer for Hezbollah is the worst thing you could probably do, because they will not forget. Israel's goal should have been to stabilize the Lebanese government and help them isolate Hezbollah. Obviously, they chose to tear the whole nation apart instead. And what are you going to gain from a country in ruins? People willing to fight their oppressors (= Hezbollah).

Good job, Israel.

Most amazing jew boots

So if we can all agree on the fact that a stable Lebanon is in the best interest to all parties involved, why is it that the whole country's infrastructure has to be destroyed now?

I mean, wouldn't a somewhat closer diplomatic relationship and support to Beirut be a lot more productive than the bombing of roads, bridges, buildings and airports that will take years and decades to be rebuilt? After just merely recovering from the previous occupation and the ensuing civil war, the Lebanese people have their country in ruins yet again. What makes a sane person think that the atrocities will not be engraved in the collective mind of these people forever?

Let's just assume for a second here that Israel can actually wipe out the Hezbollah entirely: What makes you think that those witnessing all the carnage and destruction now aren't going to take up arms against Israel? There's always a new generation of terrorists just waiting around the corner, willing to risk their lives fighting against those who came into their country destroying their homes and killing their families. Do you honestly think they care about the reason for Israel's actions?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

You do realize that people are taking those photos completely out of context right? It's addressed to the leader of Hezbollah.

It doesn't matter to whom they are addressed. It's fucking wrong to have children sign artillery shells.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by ofirov

The fact is that Israel is much more selective of its targets

o rly?

The fact is also that Israeli airstrikes have mostly hit civillians since the beginning of this war.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Cetra

They are not hitting targets with the intent of killing as many civilians as possible unlike the rocket attacks that are coming out of Lebanon.

Just because they don't have the intent to do so doesn't mean it's perfectly justifiable to kill civilians. Of course, you might prefer to call the slaughter "prepping the battlespace" instead if you wish to.

I only meant to point out that Israel doesn't seem to be so "careful" or selective with their targeting as it's been stated here.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Cetra

How can you say they aren't justified? You seem to ignore the fact that Israeli citizens are also dying and what is worse is the are being targeted indiscriminately.

I'm not weighing these things up against each other. It's the worst thing you can do in a war. I'm not debating the Hezbollah attacks on Israel, I was just trying to argue that the airstrikes conducted by Israel aren't anywhere near as "precise" as they were made out to be. Keep in mind that out of the 500+ total casualties, only 50-100 were alleged Hezbollah fighters. And don't forget close to one million refugees and thousands of people reported missing in southern Lebanon.

FELIPE NO

Quote:

UN deaths add to pressure for ceasefire

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Israel strove on Wednesday to limit the diplomatic damage from its killing of four U.N. observers in Lebanon ahead of an international conference in Rome on how to end its 15-day-old war with Hizbollah guerrillas.

(...)

Annan had demanded Israel probe the "apparently deliberate targeting" of the U.N. post in the village of Khiam on Tuesday.

China condemned the air raid, in which a Chinese national was killed. Its official Xinhua news agency said the other three observers were from Finland, Austria and Canada.

(...)

U.N. officials said the air strike flattened the building housing the observers. Lebanese security sources said three of the bodies had been dug out of the rubble.

"(This) attack on a long established and clearly marked U.N. post at Khiam occurred despite personal assurances given to me by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that U.N. positions would be spared Israeli fire," Annan said in a statement.

(...)

Source: reuters.com

Originally Posted by ofirov

Also, you seem to forget that over 2,000 rockets have been shot by Hezbollah into Israeli territory. THESE rockets ARE aimed at civilians.
30% out of the 280,000 residents of Haifa have left their homes, and that's just Haifa. Are they not refugees? Many houses and businesses have been damaged in northern Israel. The difference is that the Israeli civilians are been targeted.

Comparing yourself to Hezbollah is futile. Do you honestly think the deliberate killing of civilians ist justified because Hezbollah does the same? By this logic, you are terrorists yourselves. There is no denying that Hezbollah's attacks are wrong, but they don't make your actions any more right!

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

On the other hand, if Israel doesn't go to war against Hezbollah, then they become victims, which still means that nobody is right.

No, but a solid, armed U.N. mission to southern Lebanon and supporting Beirut establish a stable and substantial government could have been an alternative worth considering. Isolating Lebanon and Syria only sparks the flames in this conflict.

How ya doing, buddy?

Then the U.N. needs to get their shit together and start an armed mission to southern Lebanon with the support from E.U., U.S., Israel, Lebanon and a solid mandate. Isn't this what's being discussed and planned right now? Didn't Israel sort of agree to a U.N. mission? I think we can all agree that Hezbollah needs to be disarmed now, but doing so by destroying the foundation of a prosperous and secure Lebanon isn't exactly a clever solution.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Israel has only killed civillians because Hezbollah hides among civillians, making them collateral damage.

Actually, if they know that they hide among civilians, it's not collateral damage, but intended damage. Don't make it sound like they don't have a choice, here.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Adamgian

Until Israel started destroying the country, they wouldn't have been able to. The attitude was shifting against Hezbollah, but of course, thats not the case anymore.

Which is exactly the most important point of this all.

Let's face it: The only one thing that is already certain about the war is that nothing good will come of it. Whatever happens - Hezbollah will emerge strengthened. If there had been hopes in the past that Lebanon would slowly become a normal country, where Hezbollah would be deprived of a pretext for maintaining a military force of its own, they were now provided with the perfect justification: Israel is destroying Lebanon, only Hezbollah is fighting to defend the country. Nobody else is.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

So Israel's latest incursion into Gaza was completely unprovoked? Remember that there is relative peace in the area UNTIL some suicide bomber decides to blow uo a cafe or schoolbus.

This very sentence shows how lacking your knowledge of the entire conflict in the middle east is.

Quote:

You think if Hezzbolah really gave a damn about their country they would stop the fighting. My argument of not being a bitch doesn't apply to Hezzbolah. The reason this is the case is in a fight, Hezzbolah will lose and therefor should not be starting a fight to begin with.

Like an organisation such as the Hezbollah can "lose" anything at all.

Would you just sit idly by while a superior army invades your country? If Israel's actions to "defend" themselves against terrorists by invading another sovereign country is legit, then the Hezbollah's fight against this invader is just as legit and will draw a lot of support from the people because Hezbollah are the only ones standing up to fight, not because they are a terrorist organization.

Tony, what I'm trying to say is that you seem to lack the ability to put yourself in the place of the Lebanese people.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Wesker

And you are wrongfully assuming that all of the lebanese people are behind hezbollah. Lebanon is roughly 40% Christian, and most of that 40% would much rather see hezbollah defeated and removed from their country. The Christian militias for the most part abided by the peace treaties of the past and disarmed, leaving them in no position to challenge the Iran and Syria supported Hezbollah.

Have you even read my post? Where did I assume that "all of the Lebanese are behind Hezbollah"? The situation you describe was only true before the outbreak of this recent war. My point is that Hezbollah gains a lot of support these days, because they are the only military force fighting against Lebanon's foreign invaders. Besides, you seem to have missed the reports of Christians openly supporting Hezbollah leader Nasrallah (btw the now much more capable successor of the former leader assassinated by Israel *g*). Actually, this war is the best recruitment program for Hezbollah since they were founded back in 1982 to repel the first invasion by Israel.

Also, good luck trying to convince the average Lebanese that Israel destroying the country is in their best interest.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Wesker

The fact that a handful of Christian Lebanese leaders have voiced support of hezbollah is more indicative of a fear of Hezbollah or Syrian retaliation than of anger aginst israel.

Again, why would they be afraid of Hezbollah if they are the only ones fighting to defend Lebanon? In this situation, every Lebanese who loves his country and doesn't want to have it laid to waste has no choice but to support Hezbollah. Because obviously, nobody else gives a damn about Lebanon.

And on a side note, Al Queda is said to make plans for terrorist activities in post-war Lebanon similar to Afghanistan and Iraq.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Wesker

Why would Christians be afraid of Hezbollah?...because Hezbollah uses them as human shields?
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=7314

Hezbollah using civilians as human shields? Unheard of.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Quote:

We’ll be in much deeper shit than we already are.

I fear you're right in assuming this. Because whatever happens, the overall situation in the middle east is getting worse with every day of this conflict.

Not a single goal was achieved since the war started almost a month ago. Hezbollah leader Nasrallah is alive, so is Hezbollah itself, most of their rocket launchers are intact, they still hold southern Lebanon and the IDF has seemingly lost their capability of achieving quick military victories and thus, the power of deterrence. On top of all this, we have hundreds of dead civilians and close to a million displaced people without food, water and health supplies.

Without starting another quote-war and citing countless sources, I think it's pretty obvious by now that the Israeli government has gotten themselves into a very bloody mess.

Jam it back in, in the dark.