The Immigration Protests

Originally Posted by Wesker

So, what do you think of the protests? The proposed law making illegal entry a felony? ( I'm in favor of it). The argument that the U.S. is a country of immigrants is a bogus one, because the U.S. is a country of LEGAL immigrants, not invaders who disregard the laws of the land. Remember, most who enter illegally also work illegally, drive without licenses and insurance and disregard whatever other laws that don't suit them.

Aren't most of the protests centered around Bush's "guest worker" plan? That basically make's illegal immigration legal just as long as the immigrants are working for companies paying them sub-minimum wage wages.

I think there's two immigration bills floating out there. I don't think they're protesting making "illegal entry" illegal.... because that's uhh kinda redundant and pointless. I figure that whatever the bill you're talking about is the smokescreen for Bush's guest worker bill.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Murdercrow

EDIT: Oh, and IIRC Watts, the bill they're protesting is one that basically criminalizes employment of illegal aliens (yay, in my opinion), and also criminalizes helping them (which I'm not so happy about). The other one (I think it's a Kennedy-Specter bill, but I'm not sure) includes a guest worker program.

Kennedy-Specter bill eh? Why in the world would Democrats want to turn on their union supporters.... again? Brilliant. Then again, the Democrats didn't get in their current situation without being kind of dumb. I feel sorry for people that still support the Democrats.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by gukarma

It is so. However, immigration reform could be aimed towards legalizing current illegal immigrants and embracing those who want to pursue citizenship, while eventually deporting the ones who don't want to be Americans.

It's too righteous, though.

There will be no meaningful immigration reform. The status quo won't be changed. We could make illegal immigrants felons... then we're required to lock them up and feed them. Which is a bigger waste of tax money. We already try to stop them crossing, but they just keep trying. Militarizing our border would overstretch our already thinning military resources.

Using them as wage-slave labor seems to work the best. It's almost as good as the old days with real slavery.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by gukarma

No one is demanding free hand-outs. All the illegal immigrants I know are just hard-working people who want to do nothing but cover the jobs that Americans don't want.

That's the problem. Americans will do any job for a decent and fair wage. Illegals reduce our labor wages by increasing the labor pool, and it fundamentally changes the equation. Hence, most Americans are against illegal immigration.

For instance, I've seen figures that's stated there's about eight million unemployed Americans right now. I've also seen figures that state there's up to fifteen million illegals in our country. So if all the illegals were removed from this country it'd be easy to assume that.

a) We'd have no unemployed Americans.
b) Since demand for workers is so high, wages/benefits will also be high. In fact I bet every sixteen year old could get a decent paying job. (By decent I mean above the current minimum wage)

Bottom line, Mexico's problems are the result of their corrupt and inadept oligarchy. They need to deal with their problems there, instead of coming here to create even more problems for the average American.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Because the point is to integrate them as part of a greater whole.

You're assuming that every immigrant or person that comes here is going to stay here. Or even wants to stay here.

If you think that they're only here to send money back to their families they'll leave the moment economic conditions are not favorable. Nor do they probably want to be seperated from their families.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Yes, in America we value the individual, but at the same time, there must be some kind of unifying element - it's what makes a country a country.

There is. Everyone that has come here has wanted a better life for themselves. They were fleeing persecution, famines, or just looking for a new start. Americans have been endowed with a sense of idealistic optimism. If that's not a unifying force, then I don't know what is.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

In most countries that is a common language (which in America, would be English) and a common culture. These illegals flooding over the border share neither with the rest of the population, creating division.

Only a xenophobe would care about such 'barriers' as language or culture. We're supposively a melting pot remember? Diversity is a strength, not a weakness.

Ever been to New York? Know how many languages are spoken on the streets? Does that make it any more likely that New York City is going to fragment on ethnic lines like Yugoslavia? I doubt it. It's diversity is one of it's many alluring factors. Least' that's what I think given New York was chosen as the HQ of the United Nations, and is foremost in it's supremacy as a center for international finance.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by lordjames

How exactly are open borders supposed to make the U.S. more secure?

How is closing the bordors going to make America more secure? We have hundreds of miles of unwatched, unfenced, and unmilitarized coastline. Does it take a genius to figure out that security and illegal immigration have nothing in common given that small fact everyone is ignoring? Stopping one will not stop the other.

Oh well. At least politicians aren't half as dumb as both sides of the issue apparently are. Even though they're required to pander to both. I'm looking forward to having illegals working on ethanol plantations. It's almost as good as slavery. Almost.

Hey, that wall isn't being built just to keep people out. It could be used to keep people in too.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by lordjames

I don't think your question answered mine, but I'll be glad to indulge the rest of your post, since you refuse to debate with me honestly.

I am debating with you, you just don't like my conclusions.

Originally Posted by lordjames

because we have no way of knowing who is entering the country.

And the same is not true of our coastline? You're still ignoring the elephant in the living room.

Don't let me stop you from being paranoid though. This sort of irrational fear is what make's people that think like you easily manipulated.

Originally Posted by lordjames

Although it's impossible to expect to catch every single illegal entering the country, it's hard to justify an illegal population of around 22 million people without thinking some changes are needed.

I can and have justified it easily. Ethanol plantations. It's the oil alternative answer to our energy problems, and if we use illegal immigrants on the production of said ethanol then part of the savings will get passed on to you; the customer. All is well.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by lordjames

Coastal patrol is important, but it isn't the cause of the 22 million illegal Mexican immigrants living in the country. This is, as the news reports say, attributable to porous borders.

The news media is all-knowning and always right eh?

Desperate people will go to any possible lengths to get what they want. Some of the border areas they cross are lethal for a great percentage of them, yet they attempt it again and again. I wouldn't rule out any act of desperation at this point. Especially if we're going to make it harder for them.

(We're not talking about the cause but the means)

Originally Posted by lordjames

As far people like me being paranoid, something like this, illegal immigration, could probably be more justifiable in a pre-911 world than today.

Not much has changed since 9/11 pal. The world had terrorist acts before 9/11. Even the US. Timothy Mcveigh was an American. You can't even blame foreigners with that example. We were concerned about it then, we're concerned about it now. Being paranoid really isn't helpful though. Should we seal off all our state borders in the name of security? To protect ourselves?

Maybe we should just be paranoid about people we don't know. Oops too late! Really, where is this all going?

Originally Posted by lordjames

But considering the security risks the U.S. faces today, open borders are simply not an option.

This issue was raised to prominance on the grassroots level. The Senate/House would have quietly debated this and passed one version or mix of both. The Republican and Democratic Parties haven't been thrashing and screaming that loudly about immigration security issues. Neither has President Bush. Until they had to appease their respective bases for the coming elections. This appears to be solely an immigration issue on the political level.

Furthermore I can only assume they have access to more information then you or I about sensitive matters of National Security. Which is not that big stretch of the imagination.

Originally Posted by lordjames

Despite what ever benefits we might derive from illegal immigration in the field of ethanol, which, by the way, can just as easily be gained through a legal guest worker program,

The difference in benefits of a legal program and maintaining the status quo is considerable. It's still a different way to make everybody marginally happy. Since I doubt anyone is going to be completely satisfied.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Don't you give me that diversity bullshit.

"Yeah, fuck diversity! We can only have complete uniformity to be Americans."

That kinda message is what make's you a xenophobe. At the very least it make's you sound like one.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

These people have no intention of integrating with American society or culture. They don't want to learn the language, they don't want to assimilate into our culture. A melting pot is useless when one of the ingredients doesn't want to mix with the others.

They don't necessarily want to stay here either.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

This is a retarded argument. Are you saying that because a vulnerability exists on the coastline of the United States that we should not secure the border? That's stupid as hell.

I'm asking what good it'll do if a bunch of desperate immigrants really want to make it into the country, and will go to any lengths to get in. Why bother stretching the National Guard even thinner when the overall situation won't change any? Maybe you don't care about the troops but I do!

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Ridan Krad

Watts, I disagree with you in regards to your statement that the situation cannot be changed, regardless of any actions taken to improve border security.

Fair enough. I was already under the impression that unmanned drones were already being used to cover our borders. It was the man-power aspect that most people seemed to be concerned with. That, and the fence.

Originally Posted by Ridan Krad

I think cracking down more on employers for hiring illegals would also help in that it would undermine much of the incentive for crossing the border to begin with.

While this might sound completely rational, if not a little anti-business this will never happen. Too many companies that employ illegals are politically covered by our political masters. Such as Hillary "Wal-Mart Board of Directors" Clinton. For good sound economic reasoning too.

Originally Posted by Gumby

Stretched thin? We have reserve troops from every branch of the military that could be used for this. We have over 300,000 National Guard reservists, you can't tell me we have that many in Iraq.

No, I can't. I'm not going to either. What I am going to tell you is that these reservists are not full time citizen-soldiers. They have real jobs, and the majority have families and other obligations to tend too. Furthermore, it strains their employers and puts the reservist in a bad situation if they cannot get their job back upon returning from their duties.

I still think there's a better practical solution that make's good business sense and does not involve deploying the military. Beefing up the Border Guards personel would provide more employment for the border states. Yet still leave the funding and manpower of the National Guard to attend to other duties such as natural diaster relief.

Originally Posted by Gumby

it is only going to encourage more of them to come... a lot more, especially with this guest worker and amnesty bs.

You know what's encouraging them to come? Not the guest worker program or the amnesty, but a economy in the crapper, a stock market not far behind, and a currency ready to crash, and a country run by corrupt oligarchy. Unless you're telling me you wouldn't consider hopping the border if the positions were reversed.

That alone allows me to have a little sympathy for illegals as human beings. But that's not the only reason either. It make's good business sense from a capitalist aspect to have an unconventional pool of labor on hand.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

I didn't say that. I didn't even insinuate that. Don't put words in my mouth.

Keyword in that sentence was "uniformity". It's impied as much when you were saying "I want everyone to speak English so I can understand them!". Not everybody that doesn't speak English here is going to end up a citizen. I also think you have unrealistic expectations from the integration point of view. Typically first-generation immigrants did not mesh well with the rest of American society at large. It was their children that became full blooded Americans.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

If I went to Mexico and expected everyone to conform to the language I spoke despite the common language being Spanish, I'd be called an 'arrogant American.' But if I expect Mexican immigrants, illegal or not, to learn the common language of the United States - English - then I'm a goddamn xenophobe?

That's exactly what happens. Maybe you nor anyone else here would not act in that fashion but most of the American tourists that Mexico sees is the "SHOW ME YOUR TITS!" spring-break type dolts. Think most of them speak Spanish? Nope. But people working in the services industry are typically required to know common languages. That's true there, and here.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

I think you're just talking out of your ass here because you don't want the border to be secured, you just want these people to be able to break the law at will with no consequences whatsoever. If that's what you really want, just come out and say the shit and stop coming up with this nonsense.

You've got me all wrong. I think it make's perfect business sense to let illegals cross the border. Where would companies like Wal-Mart be if they were not allowed to use foreign sweatshop labor?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Gumby

Your logic is faulted, Watts.

Eh, nobody's logic is flawless. Least of all mine. I'll take your word for most of what's been said. But I will clarify what I mean't to say.

Originally Posted by Gumby

The military is one of those obligations; otherwise they wouldn't be in the reserve.

Yes, I know. Which is why I said "other obligations". I'm not giving primacy to either or.

My overall point was that calling up reservists has a huge political cost attached to it that the government would probably not be willing to take. For you, it might not seem like an issue. But for them it is. They need to be re-elected.

Originally Posted by Gumby

The border guard is not well equipped in this fight, they lack the technology and training that the military has access too. You'd be wasting your money if you wanted to try and beef up the border guard to the level that matches what the military can already do at a whim. That means you'd be wasting my and everyone else's tax dollars when a cheaper, more effective and sound plan of action has already been proposed... all for the fact that you don't like the sound of military on the border.

If this is true, then why have a inadequately equipped border guard in the first place? What's going to be the bigger waste of money? If the National Guard is fully capable of managing the border then so be it. Sure, the Border Guard can help the National Guard but according to you they can't compare in the level of training and equipment. I don't see much point in keeping them around if this is true.

Originally Posted by Gumby

That is a horribly un-American thing to say.

Possibly, but it's entirely pro-capitalist. If you think business interests are not apart of this particular debate you're wrong. This is what is driving a wedge in the Republican Party at probably the worse possible time.

Originally Posted by Gumby

Yeah you know what else is good business sense? Dumping toxic waste in the ocean, because it is cheap to pay the fines on that sort of thing than it is to actually deal with the waste.

Here's the deal though; dumping toxic waste in a close body of water adversing effecting the wildlife and probably my drinking water is much different then a few million illegal immigrants crossing the border. One of these situations is probably going to cause cancer at some point in my life. Possibly other people as well. The other means I'll just continue to have lowest of the low prices at Wal-Mart.

But two people can play this game. "As long as these immigrants aren't coming here to chop down Oregon's trees; I'm okay with it!".

Originally Posted by Gumby

There is a reason why we have these laws, and blatantly disregarding them because you "feel" like they shouldn't apply is no excuse.

Quit being so self-righteous. It's not like you haven't broken a law or two in your lifetime. Nobody drives the exact speed limit posted.

It's not like every law that has been passed or upheld has been fair or just for all parties concerned. If it was there wouldn't be a huge debate surrounding immigration.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.