Infinite Crisis Discussion

Originally Posted by -Happy-

Actually, as the resident DC apologist here, I feel as if I need to say something about Infinite Crisis. The last time DC did something like this, it was called Crisis on Infinite Earths. The point of the huge crossovers are not only/really to sell more issues. The idea of it is to actually make the DC universe sleeker and less flabby and thus, less retconning to do. And to be honest, in terms of continuity, it really isn't a nightmare, things have definitely been blown way out of proportion. (Acro-nym, as far as I'm concerned, you're a troll account. Do come up with some proof of it having continuity problems instead of complaining in every comics thread) As Zerg said, if you have a working knowledge of the DC universe, Infinite Crisis makes an interesting read. Most fans complained about Crisis on Infinite Earths as well, but it was mainly written for the DC fans who didn't want to see such a big universe. As for something that is worse than Infinite Crisis, House of M, anyone?

I have a good working knowledge of the DCU. I've read COIE. That story was smooth read. Things within it made sense. The problems I have with Infinite Crisis (I'm sorry if haven't made them clear yet... I do so much complaining about it on CBR.) are these:

1) Characters are being killed for no reason. The Society acts out of character in the first issue and ruthlessly and violently kills most of the Freedom Fighters. Their deaths mean nothing, except that a stagnant villain, Dr. Polaris, died. This is clear because DC is already working on a mag to relaunch the group, most likely with new members.

2) Reality barriers aren't physical constructs. Much like time barriers, they cannot be detected by any of the usual senses. Yet, in IC, there appears to be some reality barrier located somewhere in the bowels of space that is not only visable (from one side, I guess) but can be punched through. Not only that, but Superboy punched through it several times (does it reseal itself?). Shouldn't Earth-2 Supes have noticed this?

3) The big continuity glitch occurs with the Chemo drop on Bludhaven, possibly the biggest thing to happen within the whole series. In IC, Batman shows up right away and takes Nightwing to the cave to report his findings about who destroyed the JLA tower. Yet, in Batman's own comic, he's held up by the Red Hood and an exploding building. In Nightwing's mag, which could possibly take place after the Batcave scene, Dick rushes into his city to assist those in need, despite Superman trying to convince him otherwise. Yet, in one of Superman's mags, it states the Superman successfully convinced Nightwing to stay put long enough for him to deal with Chemo and getting rid of the radiation.

4) Where did the Anti-Monitor's body come from?

5) In the tie-in Teen Titans issue handling the Superboy fight, the "villain" is hit with a Phantom Zone arrow. When hit, instead of being just transported to the Phatom Zone, a sort of window appears as well. The Phantom Zone hasn't acted like this in ages.

Those are my main concerns.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Both of you seem to neglect the fact that there were two parts to that second concern. In any case, I'm going to dispute some more.

1) I don't want a freakin monologue. I just want someone to explain to me why the villains suddenly decide "we're going to kill people." In the months that this group has existed they have never demonstrated any interest in killing off heroes, not have they acted in a violent manner. In fact, when Dr. Psycho tried to make Black Adam fight Superman, Adam got pissed. Is it that they got worse for some unexplained reason, or that Alexander wanted the other Freedom Fighters dead for some unexplained reason? Also, Alexander wouldn't tell them about his plan to make a new Earth. If he did, they'd probably all turn on him, seeing as how some of them could get deleted in the process. So, he had to be giving them some reason to gather the people he needed for his machine, or at least lie about what the machine will inevitably do.

2) Um, actually, Alexander Luthor and Superboy traveled to the current Earth either more than one time or spent a long time during that first trip. Alexander Luthor cloaked Brother Eye and gave Checkmate access to it. He also founded and managed the Society. Superboy was able to move Rann to cause the war. Superboy grabbed Martian Manhunter and destroyed the JLA watchtower.

3) We're in agreement, I'll move on.

4) At the end of COIE, the Anti-Monitor was destroyed utterly and thoroughly. He was damaged to much as to become a sort of energy skeletal structure, then was thrust into a star. When he tried to make one last assault, Kal-L forced him back into said star, which proceeded to implode with the Anti-Monitor still in it. Hence, there was no body for them to go retrieve.

5) Look. Any teleportation item I've seen sends people away with no window displaying where they went. It just sends, no matter where the target is going. As to why the Phantom Zone is out of whack here, in the past, people sent into this space are paralyzed, given a ghostly state in which they cannot affect anything outside of the Phantom Zone. Yet, Superboy is able to punch his way through. The Phantom Zone acting differently from the way it has is a continuity problem.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by -Happy-

1) Well, Alexander Luthor wanted The Ray from the Freedom Fighters. As to why they killed the Freedom Fighters, I would have to say that they're villains aren't they? Besides, your point about Black Adam is moot. Black Adam used to be a hero and even now still has his own code of conduct and is full to the brim of bullshit like honour and whatnot. He was pissed with Dr. Psycho for causing the death of innocent people in the area. In this sense, heroes aren't as vulnerable as normal non-powered people. The people in the society seem to trust the leadership alot, moreso "Lex Luthor" because he's the best of them all. He has a reputation like Batman. Although he doesn't have powers, nobody messes with Lex Luthor.

2) I don't see why Alexander couldn't have done everything in one fell swoop seeing as to how there isn't an exact timeline to when they finally broke down all the walls to Earth-One. You're assuming months, but they could have held back telling Kal-L about making contact with Earth's heroes until all the pieces were in place (A supposition, but a good one) after breaking down the walls. They basically fooled Kal-L into thinking that bringing back Earth-Two would save Lois and they put it in such a way that it makes it seem like all of them agreed on the idea instead of saying that it was Alexander Luthor all the way.

4) You're assuming it blew up the remains of the Anti-Monitor.

5) Actually you're talking about the Phantom Zone ray gun that Superman keeps in his Fortress of Solitude. Nobody I know in the DC Universe has ever fired a Phantom Zone arrow. Who knows how it might actually work, right? But apparently it's violating all laws of Phantom Zone physics (Which doesn't exist in the Phantom Zone) that windows should start appearing and Superboy smashing his way out.

1) I understand that they're villains. Some of the ones in that crowd are lethally-inclined (Sinestro and Cheetah come to mind). However, Deathstroke rarely shows any sign of actually wanting to kill anybody. Yet, within the story, he kills two people. Bizarro shouldn't have even be able kill the Human Bomb in such a manner, but that's a different discussion. The Freedom Fighters didn't need to die. Did anyone need to die to bring in Nightshade? Or Martian Manhunter? No. Those two were captured by themselves. Johns could have just as easily written a villain capturing the Ray while he was alone. The fact that the team's death is meaningless adds fuel to this thought.

2) Seeing as how the events leading up to IC have been going on for the past few months, I'd say that there is some time interval between them, say, giving Brother Eye to Checkmate and capturing Martian Manhunter.

4) I'm not assuming anything. Read the last issue of COIE. The Anti-Monitor was in a freakin' energy form when he was destroyed. There's no body to find.

5) Yes, the operation of the Phatom Zone is out of whack here. Yes, there's never been an arrow for this before. It still doesn't make sense. Why would Superman make an arrow (I could probably stop the question here...) that keeps a window open for him to view the prisoner? He could easily check on whoever through other means. The only possible reason would be that Superman is really sadistic and gets pleasure out of watching people suffer, which I know isn't false. The reason this is relevant is that if it worked the right way, instead of Johns' way, the whole thing with the Flashes wouldn't have happened.

How ya doing, buddy?

There's no point in arguing this any more. Neither one of us is making ground here. And I don't believe I ever said that the problems in IC were strictly continuity-based. The process is going to go that I keep backing up my side, then you keep responding with your thoughts. It's utterly pointless. If neither one of us has convinced the other by now, we're never going to.

Now, as for House of M, at least it didn't have any plot holes.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Infinite Crisis is over. I am happy that the last issue was just as chaotic, random, and messed up as the rest of the series. It was a compliment to not-so-hard work Johns did in issues 1-6. I believe the main problem was how Johns tried so hard to make it parallel the original Crisis while still incorporating five lead-ins. It just didn't work. Unfortunately, it's part of continuity, like Morrison's Seven Soldiers thing.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Yes, indeed. The first issue of 52 was just wonderful! It had items appearing from nowhere, people acting out of character, and the fine-line-walking of a time travel item. It was great!

If this continues, 52 will be complimentary to IC...

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?